I have been coached by 3 coaches. All of them very different.

[Der_Echte]

An attacker can also kill the spin with his inverted rubber doing a forward stroke and adjusting blade angle and reducing the acceleration AND have a very soft hand doing it. Not very practical to do that if the ball is low enough, you would have to NOT hit it too hard to keep it on the table and that should would easily be retrieved by the defender and he would easily catch what spin (or lack of it) is on the ball. If the chop is high enough, it could be a good variation for attacker to hit this shot fast little spin right at defender, even add a little sidespin.

Onn the flip side, there are ALL KIND of Div 1 old-school Korean J-Pen amatures who have mastered the reverse of this: putting on the brakes vs a heavy incoming topsin. They have such soft hand at impact and a forward swing, it looks like they are fast looping it with heavy spin, but in reality, the ball they are giving you is much slower and almost all your spin removed. Often, you do not see this ball and are caught off guard by the lack of "kick" on his shot, you lunge forward and are all off time, off balance, and are impacting the ball out of zone often for an error.

 

[izra]

I hate to hijack this post but I am enjoying this discussion. My comment is about the spin, not the direction of where the ball heads after contact. There are two separate velocities at play, linear velocity and angular velocity, I am merely focusing on the latter. Without getting into too much detail, consider this.

Joo Se Hyuk chops, and Ma Long top spins it back, and this process repeats. After so many top spin returns by ML, ML is left with little choice but to drop shot/chop the JSH's chop back. Why? to kill the spin - because the angular velocity on the ball has compounded so much due to repeated torque applied by both players in the same direction, that the effect of the angular velocity on the ball's trajectory upon contact vastly dwarfs that of the ball's linear velocity. i.e, the spin completely takes over. This indicates that as far as the spin is concerned, top spinning a chop will make the ball spin in the same direction more and more.

My point is not about controlling the ball, it is about the spin. Sure the ball will go into the net but the existing spin will be amplified.

i'm sorry but this is wrong. while joo se hyuk's long pips do tend to continue the spin in the manner that you have described, ma long's inverted rubber does the opposite. he has to overcome the backspin each and every time and impart his own topspin.

if ma long performed a lousy topspin with a slow stroke there would be very little or even no topspin on the ball. if he were to perform it really slowly there would even be backspin on the ball. that's what happens when you block the ball back with an inverted rubber: the spin gets reversed. the tangential velocity of ma long's racket has to be greater than the angular velocity of the ball if he wants to produce a topspin shot.

 

[izra]

Force is proportional to acceleration, and according to the impulse/momentum principle the first isnt a myth.

Having written a 3d rigid body simulator, i know enough about angular collision and response to assure you the second is also not incorrect. What other facts have you been told that you believe are fallacies?

what we are talking about are not rigid body collisions. take a wooden ball and throw it, it will keep spinning in the same direction as it hits the ground. take an elastic rubber ball (you know the ones kids play with) and throw it, it will change the spin every time it hits the ground.

while force is indeed proportional to acceleration, we are only talking about velocity here, so the only thing that matters is the speed at the point of contact.

 

[dici]

Well, regarding Korea, not all of them is like coach 3
I know there is some that is like me - will adapt
some are they for social, so social style coaching

I think what turns average people aware from TT is the rules and the "correct" way of doing things.
Some people just want to have fun - aka garage ping pong - including in China and Korea (and other top TT countries)

This is the main issue. Even nowadays if you looks at USA professional sports, those coach are less bother to teach the player (include college player) the proper technique to play. Instead, they would just look at the player to decide what should they improve, whether to improve their weakness or making their stronger part become even stronger.

If you look at the street basketball style, and if this is shown to everyone in the world 30 years ago, nobody will believe that this would becomes a what we so call "proper" technique dribbling skill.

Same thing with me, I play half court 3on3 basketball, I don't want to play a proper full court 40 mins game.
Or when I play badminton, I just want to hit the shuttle non stop, and not restricted to who serve or what not.

If I want to play social bball, and i go into a club with serious training/match basketball only, I am going to walk out and find some where else to play.

I think with TT, our clubs are normally big enough to accomdate more than one type of players, thus coaches will need to be flexible in catering for a vast amount of players needs and requirement. Not everyone want to train hard core.

With my students - the older ones, they want to train hardcore once a while, maybe 10%, rest of the time, it is similar to coach 1 and coach 2. The younger ones can (maybe lazy, but they can do it) train 80% hardcore.
Any way, I think it is very difficult to be a coach to cater for all kinds of people.

I personally would just like to focus on high performance training and preparing players (youth) who has the foundation to groom them to become better players (coach 3 type)

 

[Pnachtwey]

This is the main issue. Even nowadays if you looks at USA professional sports, those coach are less bother to teach the player (include college player) the proper technique to play. Instead, they would just look at the player to decide what should they improve, whether to improve their weakness or making their stronger part become even stronger.

This is what I am after. I want the coach to look at what I can or can't do and concentrate on what to work on that will improve my scores the most with the least amount of effort or time. I am not going to be a profession TT player. I am too old for that. As an engineer I think working on the first 4 strokes is where the "low hanging fruit" lies.

I have another lesson tomorrow. I hope to work on serve returns and 3rd ball attacks. My serves are relatively good. I need to be able to take advantage of the weak returns better.

Izra, when looping back spin balls the ball spin does not change direction. See this:
High Speed Table Tennis Video.flv
I think this must have been part of a Butterfly commercial. Look at all the cameras yet they don't have one close up high speed video of the impact. I have a high speed camera but it is a lot of work to make a good high speed video.

 

[Baal]

A couple of thoughts. Not everybody can coach older players, and while most of the things that make a good shot are the same for everybody, the limitations older players have need to be recognized. Good coaches can find fixes to work around the limitations to some extent, but not every coach has a clue as to what those things might be. Sometimes a mental picture that may not be in perfect accord with physical reality helps a player create a better shot, perhaps by allowing the player to compensate for something that that they are systematically doing wrong*. I have seen older players badly injured by coaches who don't know what they are doing.

* Players mental image of what they are doing may have little relationship to what they are actually doing. As one coach of mine used to say, "there is feel and there is real". That's why some people are pretty shocked and unhappy the first time they see themselves play on video. And therein lies the fallacy of "I know the physics, and so I know this thing I'm told is BS". Well maybe, but there may be other reasons the coach is telling you something (not necessarily this coach or PNachtway, I am talking more generally). Example, player is constantly getting off balance when forced to move far into the forehand corner. Common problem. One leg stronger than the other. Tell them to put all their weight on their weak leg while playing, now they move better to the forehand corner. Actually they are probably not putting all their weight on weak leg, they are probably now balanced for the first time in years, and it feels weird.

 

[Pnachtwey]

I have seen older players badly injured by coaches who don't know what they are doing.

This is why one shouldn't blindly believe everything a coach says. In the case of coach 3 that works my ass off I know when I am getting tired and stop the drill.
Nothing should hurt except for some upper thigh muscle from getting low and maybe some lower back muscles.

* Players mental image of what they are doing may have little relationship to what they are actually doing. As one coach of mine used to say, "there is feel and there is real". That's why some people are pretty shocked and unhappy the first time they see themselves play on video.

I am a big believer in cameras or what ever instrumentation is handy to record. I am in the motion business. I have known for a long time that what people think they see or think what is happening is often wrong. That is why high speed recording devices are required. Sean O'Neil records his lessons with 2 cameras. One is focused on the whole table and the other on player. He synchronizes the two videos and displays a picture in picture so one can see the stroke itself and the big picture. That takes a lot of work.

And therein lies the fallacy of "I know the physics, and so I know this thing I'm told is BS".

Most of the stuff I have been told by the coaches is correct. There are some times when what they are saying is not right but I run it through my physics filter and go on. Coach 3 barely has a high school education. I don't waste my time trying to explain the speed after impact formula.

I hope to practice 3rd ball attacks today during lessons. I practice 3rd ball attacks for about 1 -1.5 hrs a week with my practice partners. Hopefully the coach will point out something that will increase my percentages or consistency. It will probably be something about timing. There is a relevant recent Youtube video by bogeyhunter practicing 3rd ball attacks. See Der_Echte's comment.

 

[Der_Echte]

haha, I said that last night and yes, I meant it. I have seen Bogeyhunter and hit with him several times. His attack when it lands is what you see it - very good, but he is WAY more consistent than that. He rarely misses those so I know right away something is up. He adjusts to equipment pretty quick and it sure looked like he was having a bad day in general with his timing. Something like being tired or hurt might affect that greatly at his level.

It looked like this drill was supposed to give his partner more practice blacking a fast loop than Bogey practicing 3rd ball hits.

Nothing wrong with that drill and doing that in a match, only a fool thinks he will never have to defend. Sometimes, it is perfectly good to allow opponent to tattack then block him down - that is an offense in its own right.

EDIT: If any of you get around to asking PP Holic from MyTT what I did playing vs the "Master" (Robert Chen, Owner of Chen TTC Manhattan NYC) he will tell you push fast to his crossover and dared him to attack, which he did, and at a very high quality too, but I block very good and punch blocked a lot of his attacks away from him. master Chen was hard pressed to continue the attack with any decisiveness or consistency on many of those or I ran him around making him work too hard for those points.

I say that to strengthen to idea that practicing the blocking in a situation like Bogey was giving his partner from the vid is a valid training for even a very advanced top amature. Master Chen is easily 2100 USATT and would be a Div 1 City level ace in any Korean club he could throw a dart at, and yet such a blocking style by a player 2 full levels below him troubled him almost to the point of losing the match on 4th deuce in 5th set.

 

[izra]

Izra, when looping back spin balls the ball spin does not change direction. See this:
High Speed Table Tennis Video.flv
I think this must have been part of a Butterfly commercial. Look at all the cameras yet they don't have one close up high speed video of the impact. I have a high speed camera but it is a lot of work to make a good high speed video.

of course it does not change direction. but it would if you passively blocked the shot, because that is what happens when a spinning ball hits an inverted rubber. in order to keep the backspin ball spinning in the same direction the tangential speed of your racket has to be greater than the angular velocity of the spinning ball. if it's not faster you can only hope to kill the spin on the ball.

 

[Pnachtwey]

Only got to practice serve returns yesterday in the coaching session. I got a little upset when the coach started blasting very fast balls with lots of side spin. The coach hit too many long. They were unrealistically difficult to hit at first. I told the coach I still win because he missed so many serves. The back hand looping of under spin serves went a little better. It takes a leap of faith to hit a heavy back spin with enough speed so that it is an aggressive return.

I didn't get to practice 3rd ball attacks during this last lesson but here is my unedited video from last Wednesday practicing 3rd ball attacks.

We take turns practicing 3rd ball attacks we serve one bucket of balls each. We are not practicing blocking. The goal is to win the point on the 3rd ball otherwise consider it a fail. I am not trying to win the serve just serve with enough back spin so my practice partner can push the ball with back spin and keep it relatively low. What seems to be the most important is that first step since one does have time to make another.
Next is making the right stroke. Got to place the ball where the other guy doesn't have his paddle or the blocked ball comes back too fast. After seeing bogey's video I don't feel to bad about that part. Besides placement I need to have enough speed and spin to make the ball difficult to return even it the opponent can get to the ball.
I made this video to send to my coach. We have yet to cover this topic.

There is a YouTube video where the coach says to say in the BH corner and not take the first step but I am not fast enough to cover the extreme FH corner if I stay put. I need to move my right foot to a more central location immediately.

One more amazing thing. After my lesson I stayed and picked up balls while one of my practice partners had his lesson. I was picking up balls behind the coach when he made an around and under the net shot from down low with the perfect arc to land on the table. What was amazing his that he did it to his right side of the table but he is left handed. No f____ way.

 

[Der_Echte]

I saw your vid (the FH portion you hitting) and at your level, practicing serve underspin - get long underspin - ATTACK is a fundamental basic drill that has its place.

The risk of making your 3rd ball attack a fast shot with or without a ton of spin is that the block tends to come back faster at you. If you are playing upright and on your heels, if it comes back anywhere outside your FH effective hitting zone, especially to your crossover, then you will crash and burn trying to attack again almost every time. All opponent needs to do is make you move to wide FH and watch you miss or block it to your open BH corner, or give it to your crossover and let you lean and hit it off balance and block it to your open FH corner.

There is still a place to practice this, in game situations, if the shot is there, a player should take it without hesitation. Just understand your realistic chances of finishing the point and if it is blocked how you will then win the point.

If one is to make such a fast attack, then one should be able to show the opponent he can hit the attack ANYWHERE to keep opponent guessing. There is nothing more I hate than a lower rated player with a good fast 3rd ball fast loop that I cannot tell where it is going and I don't have any time to figure it out until it is near me. I would rely on hitting it to the wide FH or crossover changing amount of spin, usually heavy. That would give me the best chance of making opponent hit off balance and there is only one place to hit the ball that hard and still land it with any high percentage, I would be camped there waiting.

The key to being able to hit everywhere with power and control is position, balance, and a good knowledge of the strike zone and what you decide to do. If you are in position on balance and the ball comes into the zone, you can hit it where your body is pointed at, you can hit it in the front portion of the zone and make it go to FH line, or you can wait for the ball to come into the rear portion of the strike zone and hit the opposite way toward BH corner. (assuming a RH opponent)

Your particular problem with doing this is... you are not very low, balanced or in position most of the time you want to attack. This forces you to hit out of your effective strike zone and often off balance to make the ball go somewhere else. That isn't very reliable or consistent as you would want it. I understand you issues with age and athleticism. Still, having at least a lower stance and a reliable one step footwork or hop step footwork to get into position on time balanced and low will jack up your power, spin, and consistency on attack. It will also give you more options to make a spinny attack to get a block to smash away at. Recovery from a one-step or hop step is a only a step away. When I was learning even one step footwork and trying to put it together in a match, I would always say to myself "William, success is only a step away"

You might not get to those off the FH sideline pushes to attack them strongly, but you should be able to improve the stance and the one step to be able to attack those balls within one step with more power and consistency. A carpet sucks for movement, but we can still do a one step or a hop step.

For me, I am not looking to end the point on 3rd ball attack unless opponent hits it a little too high or high/long, then I got a green light to hit away, opponent is already in oh-shit mode. If the ball is of average quality, I look to spin the daylights out of the ball deep then look for a better ball to fast attack strongly. Often, a heavy slow topspin deep wins more points than you think on the first ball, I just don't expect it to win, but it does enough.

 

[Der_Echte]

There is a YouTube video where the coach says to say in the BH corner and not take the first step but I am not fast enough to cover the extreme FH corner if I stay put. I need to move my right foot to a more central location immediately.

I understand and I also do this sometimes as well, but it is because I am expecting a ball back to my BH and I have a very good BH opening attack. I sometimes try to set this up for a 3rd ball BH attack. I know, I am backwards sometimes, but I am what I am. I can get to the wide FH in a hurry just fine, but I have to be down, bent knees and flexing when opponent impacts ball. I got a crossover step, but I have to be on balance and ready to go or it is a fail.

What classic coaches want you to do is to stay in BH corner to use you FH more... and if the ball goes to your FH a couple feet away, take one step with right foot and hammer it for a winner. If the ball goes to FH corner, the classic advise is to take a very short quick step with right foot to the right, stay open, keep chest squared to the table, look at the ball, then do your crossover step going backwards 30 degrees or more. You will get there and imagine it is a walking step and not a running step.

The crossover step can be done with a decent speed and get to a wide ball without declaring a national emergency and state of martial law. It is all about being on balance, flexing at opponent's impact, taking that short right step, watching the ball and staying squared, then simply falling back to do the crossover and you still get there to put a wallop on the ball and surprise the beJesus outta your opponent.

I get it that you don't want to use a crossover in a match and I believe you have enough in you to increase your level 3 levels to get to 2000 USATT level without a crossover step. Just being sound while at the table and being balanced/flexed will count for a lot. Otherwise, you need a lot of touch and understanding of opponents. I am with you in believing that you do not have to become a proto-typical attacking TT player to up your current level significantly.

You could improve 1-2 levels right now within a year just by developing better balance, a better stance lower, lower center at impact, using all your body and not your upper body on Fh attacks a good one step and hop step footwork to FH attack and a bounce or slide step back to go along with serve improvement.

The one BH I saw you hit shows me you have much better devoloped timing and transfer of energy on your BH wing.

 

[izra]

a coach indeed has to be realistic and take into account the style, level and potential of a player. one of my students is over 30, not very physically fit and she has had a couple of surgical procedures on her left knee. with everyone else i insist they play a forehand oriented game with their left leg forward, but with this one i coach her to play a blocking game with her right leg forward, cover 2/3 of the table with long pips on her backhand and only utilize the forehand attack on easier balls.

 

[Gingeriffick]

That isn't how it works. Just because the contact velocity appears relatively lower than if the ball was spinning the other way doesn't make a difference. The ball was already spinning in the same direction, and you amplified it.

The math behind it - the angular acceleration vector resulting from the torque imparted by the paddle on to the ball points in the same direction as the existing angular velocity vector of the spinning ball, i.e. the dot product of the two is positive. That means after integration, it will increase the magnitude of the existing angular velocity vector, which means it will absolutely increase the spin.

In the math section, are you assuming that the contact is an impulse? I don't think that fully takes into account the fact that during impact the differential in velocities (if the paddle is moving slower than the tangential velocity of the point of contact on the ball) will produce a frictional force between the rubber and the spinning ball, slowing down the spin of the ball in the process.

Whether the contact and frictional force is enough to stop the ball spinning is a good question, but I would tend to agree with the idea that this does not cause the ball to spin more than if it was initially hit with topspin. I would say that since players tend to lift the ball more when hitting backspin that the ball is more spinney though.

 

[fais]

In the math section, are you assuming that the contact is an impulse? I don't think that fully takes into account the fact that during impact the differential in velocities (if the paddle is moving slower than the tangential velocity of the point of contact on the ball) will produce a frictional force between the rubber and the spinning ball, slowing down the spin of the ball in the process.

Whether the contact and frictional force is enough to stop the ball spinning is a good question, but I would tend to agree with the idea that this does not cause the ball to spin more than if it was initially hit with topspin. I would say that since players tend to lift the ball more when hitting backspin that the ball is more spinney though.

Thank you for this. I wasn't taking into ALL frictional forces. After izra's comment about soft contact, and that JSH's pips rubber may work more along the ways i have been describing, I realized i wan't factoring in rolling friction. I was only assuming kinetic friction (which would be proportional to the normal force and could thus be lowered when the more you brush the ball.) I am now inclined to agree the contact may not be sufficient enough increase the magnitude of the angular velocity vector.

 

[Pnachtwey]

In the math section, are you assuming that the contact is an impulse?

I think that is a good assumption but an impulse is the integration of force over time. Initially there is no force but it increases as the ball slows down relative to the paddle and the ball, rubber and blade deform. Eventually the ball stops relative to the paddle and all the kinetic energy is transformed to heat or potential energy.

I don't think that fully takes into account the fact that during impact the differential in velocities (if the paddle is moving slower than the tangential velocity of the point of contact on the ball) will produce a frictional force between the rubber and the spinning ball, slowing down the spin of the ball in the process.

As I stated above. Fais only considered one case where the paddle is moving tangentially faster than the surface of the ball. Gingeriffick is assuming the opposite case where the paddle moving slower tangentially. Gingeriffick is correct that the ball will slow down because the rotational energy will be converted to kinetic energy as the ball pushes off the rubber downwards.

Whether the contact and frictional force is enough to stop the ball spinning is a good question,

I can happen but it would be a fluke. The best chances would probably be with a SP like 802.

but I would tend to agree with the idea that this does not cause the ball to spin more than if it was initially hit with topspin. I would say that since players tend to lift the ball more when hitting backspin that the ball is more spinney though.

It really depends on whether the tangential paddle speed is higher than the rotational speed of the ball.

I think we all agree here.

 

[Pnachtwey]

Thank you for this. I wasn't taking into ALL frictional forces. After izra's comment about soft contact, and that JSH's pips rubber may work more along the ways i have been describing, I realized i wan't factoring in rolling friction. I was only assuming kinetic friction (which would be proportional to the normal force and could thus be lowered when the more you brush the ball.) I am now inclined to agree the contact may not be sufficient enough increase the magnitude of the angular velocity vector.

Rolling friction is insignificant. Look at the marks the ball makes on the paddle. This has been debated thoroughly on another forum. The marks are round. The ball doesn't slide or roll in a significant amount. If it did the marks the ball makes would be oblong.

Your initial statement was correct for the case where the tangential paddle speed is greater than the rotational surface speed of the ball. You just didn't take into account the case where the tangential paddle speed is slower or about the same.

Now back to coaching. My coach wanted me to tighten my grip just before contact. I know this will effectively make the paddle a little faster. A softer grip allows the hand to absorb a little more energy resulting in a slower return.
The work on timing is starting to show. The delay in my swing must be measured in milliseconds. I know that I must avoid reaching forward.

Der_Echte, when I get serious I get low but that kills my upper thighs and lower back. I can't do it for long periods. In normal play there is time between balls but when pulling balls out of a bucket it gets tiring fast.
My new coach is the new one in the Portland area mentioned on another forum. He is the one that hit an under/around the net shot with his back hand.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hey Pnchy,

I'm with you. We all cannot do what we want to do physically when we have certain situations with us. We have to work with what we got. We try to be an athletic two wing looper who runs around everywhere at warp speed with a body in that condition, we last maybe just a few points.

That is the thrust of your argument against molding most players into flexible offensive juggernauts... and I agree totally.

If one is to play mostly upright and move maybe a step, and often upright and off balance, they had better do a damned good job of setting up the attack or it is over.

If one is to play like that, AND achieve a much higher level, then one has to really develop touch, understanding of spin, placement, and decision making. One can get to 2000 playing at the table without a lot of athleticism or crouching, it just takes very outstanding touch and placement and calculation of odds and decision making. You can do it, but it is going to take a lot of improvement in those departments and someone with you to show and encourage you that way.

Your point about many coached not achieving that is totally valid.

 

[nasu]

In my opinion in tenis table is as life ...every man is diffrent ....so every style is diffrent ...my advice is make you style and have fun,here nasu from romania.

 

[Pnachtwey]

In my opinion in tenis table is as life ...every man is diffrent ....so every style is diffrent ...my advice is make you style and have fun,here nasu from romania.

That is one of my problem. I have no "style". I went through an extreme EJ phase where I tried many different LPs, antis, SP, MP and inverteds and many very different types of blades. I adapt to the equipment I am using at the moment. The people at the club would comment on this. Which peter showed up this time.

When taking my lesson I am now using my TBS+2xS2 2mm. I don't really like S2 on my FH. I would prefer something harder but I can adapt until the S2 wears our.

When I am tired I will take out my Firewall Plus+GD Talon 0X+TG3 Neo.