Need Help with Backhand Loop off backspin!?

[NextLevel]

I wanted to post an actual match vs. a chopper, but decided it would not be fair to the chopper who I wanted to post since he has kicked my butt quite a few times and I wouldn't be posting those. But it was last November before I worked on my FH so my FH really sucked in terms of consistency and proper technique. So I had to play the chopper with my BH. I think that would help explain why people don't do it as well as show that it can be done.

 

[darnner123]

I wanted to post an actual match vs. a chopper, but decided it would not be fair to the chopper who I wanted to post since he has kicked my butt quite a few times and I wouldn't be posting those. But it was last November before I worked on my FH so my FH really sucked in terms of consistency and proper technique. So I had to play the chopper with my BH. I think that would help explain why people don't do it as well as show that it can be done.

Wait what? Your backhand loop was stronger than your forehand loop?
That's pretty amazing considering most people's strength lie in their forehand.

 

[NextLevel]

Never have I said that Carl or Next Level or anyone's advice was ineffective, (seriously please don't start pointing fingers). They were just things I was told already and I was trying to see if it was some other area that I was lacking. As I have already tried to ask in the very first post whether if using my whole body until the point that I stood up straight was wrong and wanted some insight on it. Their advice was definitely not wrong and I appreciate them helping me, its just that it wasn't what I was looking for?
Could someone please clarify if I should use my body and legs as thrust as well or do I just bend down and crouch down as usual?

If you tried the "unsheath the sword" motion, you would have all the answers you are asking.

I find that trying to learn a technique by going through step by step instructions often leads to paralysis. What you need is a simple motion that you repeat for the whole stroke. When you unsheath a sword, you pull it out of the sheath and rotate your waist as well as the upper arm without moving the elbow too much.

If you know the right motion, you can use it to loop both topspin and backspin.

 

[NextLevel]

Well since this video is already on TTD in a blade review, this will give you a sample of my BH topspin when I was trying to rebuild it a few months ago to work better vs. topspin. I am rebuilding it so I am mostly hitting it at 50-60% power.

 

[darnner123]

If you tried the "unsheath the sword" motion, you would have all the answers you are asking.

I find that trying to learn a technique by going through step by step instructions often leads to paralysis. What you need is a simple motion that you repeat for the whole stroke. When you unsheath a sword, you pull it out of the sheath and rotate your waist as well as the upper arm without moving the elbow too much.

If you know the right motion, you can use it to loop both topspin and backspin.

Yes that is basically the motion I have been trying but when I can't get it over I get really annoyed and start using more and more power but that just makes it go into the net more.
Because I'm pulling the blade upwards and forwards really strongly, it causes my back to straighten which makes it really awkward.
Now I'm trying to ask if when you are doing this motion whether or not I should always keep my back crouched down with my legs bent or should I just keep doing what I've been doing?

 

[NextLevel]

Wait what? Your backhand loop was stronger than your forehand loop?
That's pretty amazing considering most people's strength lie in their forehand.

Yes, my BH loop was higher quality and more consistent than my forehand loop for the longest time, and in terms of relative level, is still higher, as in elements of my BH loop would belong in a player higher rated than myself, and my forehand would mostly belong to a lower rated player. My FH loop has improved a lot in the last 8 months and closed tje gap, but relative to my level, it is still lower than my BH loop.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes that is basically the motion I have been trying but when I can't get it over I get really annoyed and start using more and more power but that just makes it go into the net more.
Because I'm pulling the blade upwards and forwards really strongly, it causes my back to straighten which makes it really awkward.
Now I'm trying to ask if when you are doing this motion whether or not I should always keep my back crouched down with my legs bent or should I just keep doing what I've been doing?

You are still trying to think in terms of things that don't matter! Generally, yes, you should stay crouched, but it is not a rote thing - it is about finding a natural motion and applying it to the stroke and timing the speed of the racket to match when you contact the back of the ball!

 

[darnner123]

You are still trying to think in terms of things that don't matter! Generally, yes, you should stay crouched, but it is not a rote thing - it is about finding a natural motion and applying it to the stroke and timing the speed of the racket to match when you contact the back of the ball!

Well I'm sorry, I am a very confused child just starting at table tennis.
I don't have a lot of experience with this.
I will definitely try it out and thank you for your insight!

 

[Der_Echte]

Darner, I was/am not pointing out you or anyone in general. A lot of people on forums doubt or ignore NextLevel when he is in fact handing out free and very practical effective advice. I take many opportunities to support him in my warped way.

Short answer I say is I loop pretty much the way you describe, explode up from a crouch impacting the ball when I am almost all the way up to my normal ready position stance, not exactly standing straight up like a tent pole, but almost all the way up to my playing crouch, which is a little higher than most. I think it is all about using every part of your body to create energy and funnel it into an effective shot. The whole body offers power and control.

As for myself and my way to loop underspin balls, I certain do use the whole body. I crouch with extra knee bend and make sure my entire wist is below table, I drop my arm/wrist down between my legs and cock my wrist back nearly as much as it can go, I wait for ball to come into my zone, I explode upwards and let it rip, I go for either a fine brush for spinny slow loop, or a fast loop if the ball is a bit high or opponent is camped at one end. Like Carl mention, the wrist snaps almost on its own in hte right time if you were loose and well timed.

NextLevel always emphasizes the elbow position. I always emphasize that you do not keep arm locked and try to pivot on shoulder joint. Like NL, I believe upper arm comes up with the body, but it stops at a point. This is what I call your leverage. All that kinetic energy is flowing from your leg and hip explosion, you simply let the arm (both upper and lower) move, but at a point a little above where you impact teh ball and a bit to the front of your body, your elbow stops and parks itself while the lower arm continues up, and you accelerate the wrist right before impact. This maximizes all the nicce energy you produced and channels it to the ball.

Whether you choose to do a slow spinny loop or a fast loop depends on your judgement. The slow loop is exploding upwards, the fast loop explodes up and forward.

I think BH loop is a real natural shot and the loop vs underspin in my mind has got to be the easiest loop to do, even if the FH is way more dynamic and possible to do on the move, there is something very satisfying about making a really spinny or fast loop against an underspin ball.

 

[Der_Echte]

Wait what? Your backhand loop was stronger than your forehand loop?
That's pretty amazing considering most people's strength lie in their forehand.

NextLevel and I are similar level players with similar strengths and look to do the same things tactically in matches. We have several differences in BH, but both of us have BH shots that are much more developed higher level than our playing levels.

My BH fast shot vs a loose ball with next to zero visible backswing is faster than many players' FH smashes. You have to be on the other end of the table to see this. I agree that the FH much more dynamic shot capable of transferring much more power and spin in general and can be played out of position. For a good BH shot, you cannot have much error in your position, but you can do a good FH on the run or do a good FH when not in optima position.

The advantage of the FH is that it uses much more of the body's big muscle groups so you can have more power and control on most shots using FH.

The advantage of the BH is in rallies close to table, it can be difficult to tell where you are going with the ball and you can take the ball quick off the bounce more easily and natural. You are closer to the ball and see it better. In general, the BH shot is QUICKER and for some people FASTER and more consistent.

You run into a player with both a good FH and BH AND can use good judgment of when and how to engage the FH.. lookout.

 

[darnner123]

Darner, I was/am not pointing out you or anyone in general. A lot of people on forums doubt or ignore NextLevel when he is in fact handing out free and very practical effective advice. I take many opportunities to support him in my warped way.

Short answer I say is I loop pretty much the way you describe, explode up from a crouch impacting the ball when I am almost all the way up to my normal ready position stance, not exactly standing straight up like a tent pole, but almost all the way up to my playing crouch, which is a little higher than most. I think it is all about using every part of your body to create energy and funnel it into an effective shot. The whole body offers power and control.

As for myself and my way to loop underspin balls, I certain do use the whole body. I crouch with extra knee bend and make sure my entire wist is below table, I drop my arm/wrist down between my legs and cock my wrist back nearly as much as it can go, I wait for ball to come into my zone, I explode upwards and let it rip, I go for either a fine brush for spinny slow loop, or a fast loop if the ball is a bit high or opponent is camped at one end. Like Carl mention, the wrist snaps almost on its own in hte right time if you were loose and well timed.

NextLevel always emphasizes the elbow position. I always emphasize that you do not keep arm locked and try to pivot on shoulder joint. Like NL, I believe upper arm comes up with the body, but it stops at a point. This is what I call your leverage. All that kinetic energy is flowing from your leg and hip explosion, you simply let the arm (both upper and lower) move, but at a point a little above where you impact teh ball and a bit to the front of your body, your elbow stops and parks itself while the lower arm continues up, and you accelerate the wrist right before impact. This maximizes all the nicce energy you produced and channels it to the ball.

Whether you choose to do a slow spinny loop or a fast loop depends on your judgement. The slow loop is exploding upwards, the fast loop explodes up and forward.

I think BH loop is a real natural shot and the loop vs underspin in my mind has got to be the easiest loop to do, even if the FH is way more dynamic and possible to do on the move, there is something very satisfying about making a really spinny or fast loop against an underspin ball.

Thank you this was what I was looking for!

 

[Der_Echte]

I ask players who are learning to BH loop to go for the safe, slow heavy spin BH loop first to develop the timing and touch of it all, then later practice fast loops vs underspin. They are different shots and it makes sesne to learn how to slow loop... after all, that is what a lot of us want on the first topspin in many cases, unless the ball is up there for the banging.

Once a player gets the timing and feel of a slow spinny loop, it is much easier to adjust for a higher ball and make more direct impact.

 

[darnner123]

I ask players who are learning to BH loop to go for the safe, slow heavy spin BH loop first to develop the timing and touch of it all, then later practice fast loops vs underspin. They are different shots and it makes sesne to learn how to slow loop... after all, that is what a lot of us want on the first topspin in many cases, unless the ball is up there for the banging.

Once a player gets the timing and feel of a slow spinny loop, it is much easier to adjust for a higher ball and make more direct impact.

Do you have a video as well of you looping with your backhand I can use for reference with?

 

[Der_Echte]

I don't have a vid with BH Looping for the forum specifically. I haven't posted many vids recently. Maybe from NYC adventure 2.0 when we were goofing around...

 

[NextLevel]

Thank you this was what I was looking for!

No, it's not. What you fail to realize is that when you start to deconstruct a stroke, it is the beginning of trouble. You can BH loop vs. underspin in MANY ways. The truth is that very often, unless we are on camera, what we imagine ourselves to be doing and what we are actually doing can be very different depending on the particular situation. So what you need is something you can do that feels natural and you can activate and do consistently. Focusing on whether the knees should be bent or one should be crouched throughout the stroke is going to paralyze you under match conditions. The truth is that most of our learning comes from getting a decent stroke and applying it to many balls through trial and error.

My guess, even without video tape, is that if your self reporting is true, you have a decent stroke. What you might be doing too much is focusing on the misses rather than letting the body adjust naturally over time. Just get a decent stroke and use the stroke over and over. Don't make missing the end of the world once you have a decent stroke.

The main difference between looping backspin and looping topspin, once you have a decent stroke, is that one is more vertical than the other. How you create that vertical path is up to you as long as you contact a lower point on the ball depending on the amount of backspin or a higher point depending on the amount of topspin. But focusing on every nuance rather than just one or two general things leads to the idea that one must have every technical detail right to have a decent stroke.

 

[darnner123]

No, it's not. What you fail to realize is that when you start to deconstruct a stroke, it is the beginning of trouble. You can BH loop vs. underspin in MANY ways. The truth is that very often, unless we are on camera, what we imagine ourselves to be doing and what we are actually doing can be very different depending on the particular situation. So what you need is something you can do that feels natural and you can activate and do consistently. Focusing on whether the knees should be bent or one should be crouched throughout the stroke is going to paralyze you under match conditions. The truth is that most of our learning comes from getting a decent stroke and applying it to many balls through trial and error.

My guess, even without video tape, is that if your self reporting is true, you have a decent stroke. What you might be doing too much is focusing on the misses rather than letting the body adjust naturally over time. Just get a decent stroke and use the stroke over and over. Don't make missing the end of the world once you have a decent stroke.

I guess you are right about getting used to the stroke first.
I will tell you if there are any developments after practicing it more!
Sadly its exam period for me atm :C

 

[NextLevel]

I guess you are right about getting used to the stroke first.
I will tell you if there are any developments after practicing it more!
Sadly its exam period for me atm :C

The main difference between looping backspin and looping topspin, once you have a decent stroke, is that one is more vertical than the other, all other things being equal. How you create that vertical path is up to you as long as you contact a lower point on the ball depending on the amount of backspin or a higher point depending on the amount of topspin. You may even discover by accident that when you play more on the side of the ball, you can have a consistent stroke because of spin avoidance. But focusing on every nuance rather than just one or two general things leads to the idea that one must have every technical detail right to have a decent stroke. What really matters is the racket speed and path when you make contact with the ball. Compare the two videos below (don't focus so much on explanations, but on the strokes) - the strokes are identical, the only difference is the path of the swing which affects the contact point on the ball.

Again, there are many other good videos out there with very good techniques and explanations. But just find a motion that loops and apply it to many balls.

 

[Der_Echte]

I have said before (with words to this effect) in another thread on another forum that worrying about the major fundamental stuff is important and some of the other stuff takes care of itself. So agrees NextLevel.

NextLevel is putting it out there to a real level. This is all about how to be in position and how to effectively transfer power. There isn't one way to do it and there are many BH shots, many share the same fundamentals.

He is right, it doesn't profit to worry about trying to get every single aspect perfect, some players generate and transfer power in different ways, but many fundamentals apply. It is much better to worry about fundamental stuff and get that right, many things take care of themselves when we get fundamentals right.

If you keep hitting a ball into a net, it is likely your stroke is not vertical enough or you are not effectively generating power. Something could be sapping your power. Hard to tell without seeing you live or on vid.

 

[darnner123]

I have said before (with words to this effect) in another thread on another forum that worrying about the major fundamental stuff is important and some of the other stuff takes care of itself. So agrees NextLevel.

NextLevel is putting it out there to a real level. This is all about how to be in position and how to effectively transfer power. There isn't one way to do it and there are many BH shots, many share the same fundamentals.

He is right, it doesn't profit to worry about trying to get every single aspect perfect, some players generate and transfer power in different ways, but many fundamentals apply. It is much better to worry about fundamental stuff and get that right, many things take care of themselves when we get fundamentals right.

If you keep hitting a ball into a net, it is likely your stroke is not vertical enough or you are not effectively generating power. Something could be sapping your power. Hard to tell without seeing you live or on vid.

I will try to post a video once my exams are over and its the holidays.
Hope you would be able to look at it then!

 

[slimjimmii]

I will try to post a video once my exams are over and its the holidays.
Hope you would be able to look at it then!

oh cool, i am interested

may be you realised it already:

i have posted a tranings video where i play against a robot. the backspin i adjusted was very heavy, so i had to swing the backhand as fast as i can to bring the ball over the net. very exhausting also there some different camera positions to watch it, may be that helps a little bit to get an idea of how to do it. but i have to say that my backhand is not really safe... have to practice more.

and your requested movements by hitting the ball with backhand topspin are also in there. i do this automatically because of... i don´t know

and another video, that people like NextLevel and Carl know because it was a funvideo. so i slowly become a spammer, heheh.

but here i recorded all with doubled frames per second (50fps), so the movements are smoother in slow motion. may be you look at it. the backhand i do at first so after that you can quit watching because it is more a fun video than a tutorial