Need Help with Backhand Loop off backspin!?

[darnner123]

Recently I've only just been trying to loop with my backhand and I have a lot of trouble doing it.
Whenever I do it, I feel really awkward to go down really low and come back up.
I feel like I'm not supposed to try and lift the ball all the way up until I'm basically standing up straight.
I've been told to always lean forward but I don't really get how to lift the ball all the way upwards.
Can someone please help me!!!

 

[dangerhow]

You need to brush the ball really fast with a quiet vertical stroke to counteract its spin. Yeah, it's quiet difficult to master. I even couldn't do that consistently.

 

[mikestephens]

I think it's one of the more challenging strokes in table tennis. Key for me is keeping wrist and elbow nice and relaxed. Then it's much easier to accelerate upwards whilst brushing the ball. I found this webpage about backhand topspin vs backspin. May be helpful for you? http://www.tabletenniscoach.me.uk/how-to-play/backhand-topspin-vs-backspin/

 

[darnner123]

I think it's one of the more challenging strokes in table tennis. Key for me is keeping wrist and elbow nice and relaxed. Then it's much easier to accelerate upwards whilst brushing the ball. I found this webpage about backhand topspin vs backspin. May be helpful for you? http://www.tabletenniscoach.me.uk/how-to-play/backhand-topspin-vs-backspin/

Thanks mikestephens
The video is very different from what I actually do.
I bend my knees considerably and lower my back more than the guy in the video, the shots that are fed to me are usually very low and spinny so I'm not sure if I'm just not getting the feeling at the moment. Like one of the learning phases I have to go through?

 

[josephluck]

Thanks mikestephens
The video is very different from what I actually do.
I bend my knees considerably and lower my back more than the guy in the video, the shots that are fed to me are usually very low and spinny so I'm not sure if I'm just not getting the feeling at the moment. Like one of the learning phases I have to go through?

When you brush the ball, do you feel the ball sink in to the rubber? Even with countering backspin you should still feel the ball grip. Try keeping your wrist really relaxed, your stroke quite vertical and snappy. If you are practising with a coach or training partner, it would be worth having them provide lighter backspin until you get a good feeling for the shot.

It's one of the harder strokes and takes a lot of patience to get the feeling!

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[darnner123]

When you brush the ball, do you feel the ball sink in to the rubber? Even with countering backspin you should still feel the ball grip. Try keeping your wrist really relaxed, your stroke quite vertical and snappy. If you are practising with a coach or training partner, it would be worth having them provide lighter backspin until you get a good feeling for the shot.

It's one of the harder strokes and takes a lot of patience to get the feeling!

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

Thanks I will try that!
As for my stance, should I always be leaning forward even when lifting backspin?

 

[NextLevel]

This is probably the highest level shot in my game and the shot I win the most points with vs. players who I face for the first time.

Looping backspin is always a test of technique on either side. The most important first step is to have a good elbow position. In general, full and powerful BH looping requires you to lead into your stroke with the elbow.

In general, you want good racket head acceleration at contact to loop a ball. One motion that I have found to produce this and which is very helpful for looping backspin is the "unsheath the sword" motion. IT feels like you are pulling a sword out of your sheath in front of your belly or on your left hip, depending on what you are trying to do.

While this is a backhand flick video, the nature of the motion you need is described here. For looping backspin, the contact is at the back of the ball and then over the ball but with this motion, you can get enough power to play over weaker backspin balls. You can also combine with spin avoidance (going round the side for heavier backspin balls):

 

[darnner123]

This is probably the highest level shot in my game and the shot I win the most points with vs. players who I face for the first time.

Looping backspin is always a test of technique on either side. The most important first step is to have a good elbow position. In general, full and powerful BH looping requires you to lead into your stroke with the elbow.

In general, you want good racket head acceleration at contact to loop a ball. One motion that I have found to produce this and which is very helpful for looping backspin is the "unsheath the sword" motion. IT feels like you are pulling a sword out of your sheath in front of your belly or on your left hip, depending on what you are trying to do.

While this is a backhand flick video, the nature of the motion you need is described here. For looping backspin, the contact is at the back of the ball and then over the ball but with this motion, you can get enough power to play over weaker backspin balls. You can also combine with spin avoidance (going round the side for heavier backspin balls):

Thanks for the help Nextlevel!
I don't think power is my issue here, I have tried swinging out full force upwards and it still lands in the net.
The only time I get it over is, weirdly enough, when my whole body is just bent down, leaning forward.
Maybe I have to work on my brush? Or am i supposed to get power from the legs as well?

 

[NextLevel]

It's probably still your problem. Work on your brush. Looping is not about "swinging full force". It is about brush acceleration at point of contact on the right point on the ball. If you use the motion above, the circular use of elbow and upper arm guarantees acceleration throughout the stroke if your elbow leads. The motion of unsheathing the sword engages the body - give it a try.

 

[Ilia Minkin]

This tutorial by pingskills is probably the best ever one

I don't think power is my issue here, I have tried swinging out full force upwards and it still lands in the net.

Assuming that you brush the ball well, if you hit all the way upwards, you will generate a ball with an extremely high and short trajectory. It can be too short to clear the net. For the backhand topspin against backspin it is absolutely critical to use you wrist to generate the speed while brushing the ball. However, it can be very difficult to add the wrist at first. You can try to add a little bit of power by turning your waist slightly, like Liu Guoliang is showing here

It will result in longer stroke, but then, once you put everything in place, you will be able to use different parts of your body depenging on how much time you have. Do you use multiball? Consider this option, it is really effective.

 

[Shiro]

Yes, doing the backhand loop against backspin is very difficult. Normally, its best to not use this stroke to attack backspin. That is why when you see attackers like Ma long play against defensive players, they often use their forehand. They use their really good footwork to position themselves in a way where the forehand is used. Mainly, the backhand loop against backspin should be used only if you can't position yourself in time.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, doing the backhand loop against backspin is very difficult. Normally, its best to not use this stroke to attack backspin. That is why when you see attackers like Ma long play against defensive players, they often use their forehand. They use their really good footwork to position themselves in a way where the forehand is used. Mainly, the backhand loop against backspin should be used only if you can't position yourself in time.

I don't agree with any of this at all. The shot is not hard if you have the right mechanics and the Lodziak video shows them - I was trying to give a natural motion that OP can use to get the same effect.

The reason why players use the forehand against defenders is that the forehand has a larger strike zone and more flexible timing and in a rally, spin is unpredictable so you have to track the chop and float ball across different trajectories and heights and for this, the forehand is better. But if you can control your backhand strike zone, you can use it to play choppers as well. But none of this should affect how you use your backhand to open against a predictable ball.

In fact, my backhand spin is heavier than my forehand spin and you can see it in my matches that I don't mind using my backhand to open with heavy topspin on my forehand side if I find the right opponent/customer.

 

[NextLevel]

In fact, it is easier to play the backhand topspin vs. backspin than the backhand topspin vs. topspin at a high level.

Look at all these videos (ping skills, lodziak ) - can you see the "unsheath the sword" motion?

 

[darnner123]

In fact, it is easier to play the backhand topspin vs. backspin than the backhand topspin vs. topspin at a high level.

Look at all these videos (ping skills, lodziak ) - can you see the "unsheath the sword" motion?

I do use my wrist and everything for it. I just realised that crouching forward and bending down continuously kind of helped me. I used to just use my whole body and it made me stand up all the way straight which made the stroke really awkward. Thanks for the help guys!!!

 

[NextLevel]

I do use my wrist and everything for it. I just realised that crouching forward and bending down continuously kind of helped me. I used to just use my whole body and it made me stand up all the way straight which made the stroke really awkward. Thanks for the help guys!!!

You're welcome. In the absence of video, these questions are hard to answer so I only try to attack the common culprits in my experience. But like I said, this is one of my best shots, so I don't speak about it with any trepidation.

 

[Pnachtwey]

You are misleading people again.

It is about brush acceleration at point of contact on the right point on the ball. If you use the motion above, the circular use of elbow and upper arm guarantees acceleration throughout the stroke if your elbow leads.

If still accelerating at the moment of contact then maximum speed has not be reached. It is speed, not acceleration, that is important at the moment of contact. To be more specific the tangential speed of the paddle must match the angular velocity of the ball or exceed it or the ball will push off the paddle and down into the net.

 

[NextLevel]

If still accelerating at the moment of contact then maximum speed has not be reached. It is speed, not acceleration, that is important at the moment of contact. To be more specific the tangential speed of the paddle must match the angular velocity of the ball or exceed it or the ball will push off the paddle and down into the net.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I don't think power is my issue here, I have tried swinging out full force upwards and it still lands in the net.

Well, the first thing to know is that if the ball is landing in the net then, to some extent power is an issue. Or, your could say, technique....acceleration....bat speed.

If, when you are swinging hard, your upper arm is moving than the force or "power" you are using is probably the wrong power. Movement of your arm that moves your upper arm will make the speed of the racket speed too slow for looping backspin.

When you are looping backspin, NextLevel's description is a good way of getting someone to get the the forearm to pivot around the elbow so that the forearm is being used like a crank or lever. So that you get maximum bat speed. The upper arm should rotate but the elbow should not move forward too much or you will be wasting energy.

So, the information NextLevel is the real stuff. And his backhand is darn good.

If your technique is good, looping backspin to open on a third ball is not so hard. Very different than looping chop after chop. On that count NextLevel's information is also top notch.

If you get the forearm moving fast like a crank, then the wrist will follow. Correct effort will lead to the right bat speed and that will lead to actual power, and you will see it in your shots. When you have it you will be able to open against backspin and you will be able to put the power into the spin or the pace or both.


Sent from the Oracle of Delphi by the Pythia

 

[Der_Echte]

I showed a guy at Chantilly club how to BH loop against underspin and he was getting it right the first 5 minutes (when he stayed crouched enough to allow ball to come to him enough) He never had coaching, but already had 1850 league rating, so he wasn't a clueless clutzt, it was just no one showed him how to do it.

Myself, I learned how to backhand loop vs underpsin when I waz a RECREATIONAL PLAYER with zero coaching... I simply bought and read 100x the TT book Larry Hodges wrote Steps to Success: Table Tennis... the one with a pic of a TT table with a bat and ball on it.

I was BH looping my first week vs a hardbat chopper.

It can be learned.

As for Nexy Level and hiz sorry-azz BH looping... haha, anyone can feel that way if they want to and FEED Nexy Level ball after ball to hiz BH and you can see count on NL adding a point to the score and you gotta go pick up the ball.

Nexy Level knows where he is coming from and like me and like a LOT of us, he learned TT as older adult and knows what it takes to learn and grow. Ignore advice of Next Level at your own risk.

Everyone should have a good BULLCRAP filter to sort out the bullshytters.

What you look for is results... in this case, you look at if whoever is listening to who is teaching can actually learn and do it... in a timely manner even better. You look for a player's playing level as he takes lessons from someone... and see if after a year or two if it is significantly better, otherwise, coach is just raking in the cash.

If me or Carl or Next Level or Edmund Seun or whoever can in person show someone something and they can almost immediately do it consistently, then it was effective. Go ahead and think Next level is ineffective... you are just missing out on something and the one next to you who listens grows while you stay there and wonder what hit you when you mate plays and defeats you when you previously owned him.

 

[darnner123]

I showed a guy at Chantilly club how to BH loop against underspin and he was getting it right the first 5 minutes (when he stayed crouched enough to allow ball to come to him enough) He never had coaching, but already had 1850 league rating, so he wasn't a clueless clutzt, it was just no one showed him how to do it.

Myself, I learned how to backhand loop vs underpsin when I waz a RECREATIONAL PLAYER with zero coaching... I simply bought and read 100x the TT book Larry Hodges wrote Steps to Success: Table Tennis... the one with a pic of a TT table with a bat and ball on it.

I was BH looping my first week vs a hardbat chopper.

It can be learned.

As for Nexy Level and hiz sorry-azz BH looping... haha, anyone can feel that way if they want to and FEED Nexy Level ball after ball to hiz BH and you can see count on NL adding a point to the score and you gotta go pick up the ball.

Nexy Level knows where he is coming from and like me and like a LOT of us, he learned TT as older adult and knows what it takes to learn and grow. Ignore advice of Next Level at your own risk.

Everyone should have a good BULLCRAP filter to sort out the bullshytters.

What you look for is results... in this case, you look at if whoever is listening to who is teaching can actually learn and do it... in a timely manner even better. You look for a player's playing level as he takes lessons from someone... and see if after a year or two if it is significantly better, otherwise, coach is just raking in the cash.

If me or Carl or Next Level or Edmund Seun or whoever can in person show someone something and they can almost immediately do it consistently, then it was effective. Go ahead and think Next level is ineffective... you are just missing out on something and the one next to you who listens grows while you stay there and wonder what hit you when you mate plays and defeats you when you previously owned him.

Never have I said that Carl or Next Level or anyone's advice was ineffective, (seriously please don't start pointing fingers). They were just things I was told already and I was trying to see if it was some other area that I was lacking. As I have already tried to ask in the very first post whether if using my whole body until the point that I stood up straight was wrong and wanted some insight on it. Their advice was definitely not wrong and I appreciate them helping me, its just that it wasn't what I was looking for?
Could someone please clarify if I should use my body and legs as thrust as well or do I just bend down and crouch down as usual?