Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Shuki]

point 6:24 I'm a badass >=]

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

???? he's a better player than me. why try using my forehand more?? why don't you show me a video of you using your lesser quality stroke against a player that's better than you instead of doing the ones that give you a better chance. and when you ask me to try and beat him by more.... That's the most I've ever beaten him by. whether it be his lack of movement or whatever, that was the best scores I've had on him.

Hey man, please calm down. I'm trying to give constructive advice
I can understand your excitement when you beat hard a guy that you don't beat easily (or lose) usually. Everybody would be. Hell, i sometimes get excited because i lose, but i get one SET from someone !

When i said I want to use your FH more, its not at all an advice about the way to beat him. Its just because we don't see much of it during the game (the main reason being him playing to your BH) and that I'd like to see that aspect of your game and see you improving there. Wouldn't you like to be as good on the FH than on the BH ? Or do you believe your FH is already as good or better than your BH ??

Is he a better player than you ? Not this day. The general form of his strokes is more advanced than yours, but he wasn't moving, made easy mistakes, and kept playing in your BH. Maybe he was practising something, thinking about his date after the match or whatever...because mentally and tactically he wasn't good at all...

You have your strengths, and if he doesn't play more seriously next time, and gives always 3-4 free points per set, I would always bet on you.

 

[Shuki]

Hey man, please calm down. I'm trying to give constructive advice
I can understand your excitement when you beat hard a guy that you don't beat easily (or lose) usually. Everybody would be. Hell, i sometimes get excited because i lose, but i get one SET from someone !

When i said I want to use your FH more, its not at all an advice about the way to beat him. Its just because we don't see much of it during the game (the main reason being him playing to your BH) and that I'd like to see that aspect of your game and see you improving there. Wouldn't you like to be as good on the FH than on the BH ? Or do you believe your FH is already as good or better than your BH ??

Is he a better player than you ? Not this day. The general form of his strokes is more advanced than yours, but he wasn't moving, made easy mistakes, and kept playing in your BH. Maybe he was practising something, thinking about his date after the match or whatever...because mentally and tactically he wasn't good at all...

You have your strengths, and if he doesn't play more seriously next time, and gives always 3-4 free points per set, I would always bet on you.

you're right his form is better and he's not moving. I've talked about this with him, he says he hasn't done footwork drills in more than 5 years.

to answer your question, on if I'd like my forehand to be ask good as my backhand, the answer is actually no. I hate speed. that's part of the reason I started playing long pips when I do a forehand it will generally be a block or a SLOW loop, because I'd prefer to be able to have time to get ready for the next stroke comfortably.

my backhand ends where it does because it's a short stroke, able to get ready for the next one quickly. I didn't post for critique purposes as much as to show my progress and so that when I give advice, the receiver of my advice understands my level of play.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

I know you get coaching but my questions to you are as follows:

1. How old were you when you started playing?
2. How many older players have you extensively coached?

Hey man, i live in Japan, and there is a tradition to respect the older and the more ancient. I know you've been contributing a lot to this community here and I certainly don't want to be the guy coming from nowhere and putting a mess here.

OK.
1. I am 44, i played at little bit at school but i played seriously only from 15 , 1 year at my local club only and doing junior competitions. Then from 21 to 28 I played in a club doing competitions as well. I wasn't specially gifted but i played a lot back then and managed to improve 100 points a year roughly to reach 1350 points (French system), so its like maybe 2000-2100 US ? from the conversion tables i see here and there.

Then i moved to Japan, i didn't play competitions and trained in good conditions for a long time so i think my level dropped something like 250 points for many years. I resumed training more seriously in London in 2012 taking private lessons, to get some consistency back, and from 2013 i train much more, including 1:1 weekly lessons with excellent professional coaches. Younger, i would just serve long and try to kill the ball immediately. i was very good at it, i wasn't able to do a proper BH topspin, in matches i would just push or block passively with it. But i was very quick on my legs so i tried to take everything with FH. Now my technique i think has improved a lot, but of course I'm much slower, although i think i'm still relatively fit for my age. No big belly yet... Overall i think i'm becoming a better player than back then just now.
Apart from playing with my coaches, there are a lot of people with my club, so i knock the ball regularly with players of all style ranging from beginners to around my level, to 500 points better to professional players...

2. How many players have i coached ? absolutely 0. Maybe i should have introduced myself first and said so ? So if someone wants to dismiss what i write cause i'm not a pro coach, yes you can absolutely. I mean, this is a free forum, i don't think there are only coaches contributing, and if someone posts a video here, he can expect to have a feedback from any random internet guy. My level is only intermediate and I wouldn't feel comfortable giving advice to players 500 points above, or even 300 points, but I don't think this is the case here. Also, the kind of advice i've gave is just repeating selected pieces that my own coaches are telling me. I am not trying to make something by myself... As i see things that i see myself doing, (like the upper body thing for Shuki) i think its worth mentioning.

I wouldn't also give any advice to any Penholder, or pips player, I don't know at all how to use those rubbers...

On the French forum luckily if you post a video, many good players give you feedback, there are even people who are top 1000 French players, so maybe that would be US top 100 ? that give regularly free advice. But free advice on this forum means NL. Just trying to contribute as well...If even 20% of what i write isn't BS and you can identify which it is, isn't is worth publishing ???? Apart from that, there are some sites where pro coaches will evaluate your videos for a fee...

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

you're right his form is better and he's not moving. I've talked about this with him, he says he hasn't done footwork drills in more than 5 years.

to answer your question, on if I'd like my forehand to be ask good as my backhand, the answer is actually no. I hate speed. that's part of the reason I started playing long pips when I do a forehand it will generally be a block or a SLOW loop, because I'd prefer to be able to have time to get ready for the next stroke comfortably.

my backhand ends where it does because it's a short stroke, able to get ready for the next one quickly. I didn't post for critique purposes as much as to show my progress and so that when I give advice, the receiver of my advice understands my level of play.

the last thing i wanted to say about your way of playing that you might think about:
its fair to say you are a BH oriented player. but your neutral stance is one of a FH oriented player, you are waiting 75% on the left side of the table. Thats why you are struggling to make those blocks in your middle , and you have to work more to reach on your weaker FH side. Maybe it would be good to have your neutral stance a little bit more on the right; you would cover even more of the table with your BH and be in a better position quickly to execute your FH. Just try it.

 

[JeffM]

Si-hing,

HARDCORE!!

Home is HK?

Safe sojourns!

Yup! Thanks!
Haha, today's flight was possibly the worst I ever had... since the flight was at 1am, I was tired already before boarding the plane, then there is the usual delay. I overestimated myself to being able to watch movies, so I began watching Jason Bourne. Half way through that, I decided I cant go on as my eyes just won't open anymore. Had a cup noodle on the plane. Not long later, 1st vomit. Then 2nd vomit. Then 3rd and then 4th. Until I knew there is nothing left in my stomach as I tried really hard to vomit but nothing more came out... I did not think clearly, and did not realise my problem then was dehydration apart from electrolyte imbalance. Got off the plane at SG for transit, still really dizzy, and feel nauseous as soon as I eat or drink anything. On my next flight which goes to HK, I then went straight for sleep. This time the result was much better, even though I did not finish a single movie, I did not have to vomit.

Now I am at home. Going to call up some local friends and try arrange a hit with them.

And this weather... meant to be winter, but feels like summer..

 

[NextLevel]

Hey man, i live in Japan, and there is a tradition to respect the older and the more ancient. I know you've been contributing a lot to this community here and I certainly don't want to be the guy coming from nowhere and putting a mess here.

OK.
1. I am 44, i played at little bit at school but i played seriously only from 15 , 1 year at my local club only and doing junior competitions. Then from 21 to 28 I played in a club doing competitions as well. I wasn't specially gifted but i played a lot back then and managed to improve 100 points a year roughly to reach 1350 points (French system), so its like maybe 2000-2100 US ? from the conversion tables i see here and there.

Then i moved to Japan, i didn't play competitions and trained in good conditions for a long time so i think my level dropped something like 250 points for many years. I resumed training more seriously in London in 2012 taking private lessons, to get some consistency back, and from 2013 i train much more, including 1:1 weekly lessons with excellent professional coaches. Younger, i would just serve long and try to kill the ball immediately. i was very good at it, i wasn't able to do a proper BH topspin, in matches i would just push or block passively with it. But i was very quick on my legs so i tried to take everything with FH. Now my technique i think has improved a lot, but of course I'm much slower, although i think i'm still relatively fit for my age. No big belly yet... Overall i think i'm becoming a better player than back then just now.
Apart from playing with my coaches, there are a lot of people with my club, so i knock the ball regularly with players of all style ranging from beginners to around my level, to 500 points better to professional players...

2. How many players have i coached ? absolutely 0. Maybe i should have introduced myself first and said so ? So if someone wants to dismiss what i write cause i'm not a pro coach, yes you can absolutely. I mean, this is a free forum, i don't think there are only coaches contributing, and if someone posts a video here, he can expect to have a feedback from any random internet guy. My level is only intermediate and I wouldn't feel comfortable giving advice to players 500 points above, or even 300 points, but I don't think this is the case here. Also, the kind of advice i've gave is just repeating selected pieces that my own coaches are telling me. I am not trying to make something by myself... As i see things that i see myself doing, (like the upper body thing for Shuki) i think its worth mentioning.

I wouldn't also give any advice to any Penholder, or pips player, I don't know at all how to use those rubbers...

On the French forum luckily if you post a video, many good players give you feedback, there are even people who are top 1000 French players, so maybe that would be US top 100 ? that give regularly free advice. But free advice on this forum means NL. Just trying to contribute as well...If even 20% of what i write isn't BS and you can identify which it is, isn't is worth publishing ???? Apart from that, there are some sites where pro coaches will evaluate your videos for a fee...

Very funny. I am younger than you are even if I do have auto-immune arthritis. I also wish there were higher level players giving advice but that has an issue (in my experience) if the higher level players haven't worked extensively with amateurs of the kind asking for advice, usually adults when it comes to online forums.

Only asking because coaching to some degree involves getting to understand the student. The more varied the advice from better players on this site, the better. Your voice is very valuable. So hearing your history helps Shuki understand where you are coming from better as well.

There is also an experience of people volunteering to get good at the game that is very important to relate to. I think spending some time trying to understand what Shuki is trying to do with his game will reward you, even if you don't agree with it. Even compared to the last videos that Shuki shared, the changes are interesting. Shuki is playing much more behind his serve than I remember.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Very funny. (..)

Only asking because coaching to some degree involves getting to understand the student. The more varied the advice from better players on this site, the better. Your voice is very valuable. So hearing your history helps Shuki understand where you are coming from better as well.

There is also an experience of people volunteering to get good at the game that is very important to relate to. I think spending some time trying to understand what Shuki is trying to do with his game will reward you, even if you don't agree with it. Even compared to the last videos that Shuki shared, the changes are interesting. Shuki is playing much more behind his serve than I remember.

I have an extensive experience of trying to get better of that game and failing to do so very much... LOL

I'm sure Shuki is already getting coaching. He's not playing randomly at all, and he wouldn't have got that good all by himself

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Yup! Thanks!
Haha, today's flight was possibly the worst I ever had... since the flight was at 1am, I was tired already before boarding the plane, then there is the usual delay. I overestimated myself to being able to watch movies, so I began watching Jason Bourne. Half way through that, I decided I cant go on as my eyes just won't open anymore. Had a cup noodle on the plane. Not long later, 1st vomit. Then 2nd vomit. Then 3rd and then 4th. Until I knew there is nothing left in my stomach as I tried really hard to vomit but nothing more came out... I did not think clearly, and did not realise my problem then was dehydration apart from electrolyte imbalance. Got off the plane at SG for transit, still really dizzy, and feel nauseous as soon as I eat or drink anything. On my next flight which goes to HK, I then went straight for sleep. This time the result was much better, even though I did not finish a single movie, I did not have to vomit.

Now I am at home. Going to call up some local friends and try arrange a hit with them.

And this weather... meant to be winter, but feels like summer..

DAYUM! DOUBLE DAYUM!

Glad your nap helped!

LOL we will have ~30 degrees F./0 degrees C. today or next few days. Winter cold starting for NYC area.

Have fun with your friends si-hing!

 

[Richie]

decided to record me and my teammate warming up/messing around yesterday. I feel this is something I have to start doing more, it feels strange to watch myself play but could be so useful. Hopefully I can get him to record some actual games with me next season.
Good fun to try new things and watch it back too, nice little around the net by him at the end

 

[NextLevel]

I have an extensive experience of trying to get better of that game and failing to do so very much... LOL

I'm sure Shuki is already getting coaching. He's not playing randomly at all, and he wouldn't have got that good all by himself

Ah, yes, he does. And I find that the experience of your failures is probably the most valuable thing that you can give people - how you tried to do something and it just didn't work, and how you think you solved it. Technical advice is common, connecting to people to give that advice not so much. But when people realize that you were where they were and experiencing similar problems and eventually solved them somehow, the problem tends to be less frightening.

I personally like Shuki's forehand (it's a backhand player's forehand) and his ability to play points like this one:

youtu.be/1qiEd_RA2EM?t=511

Could he play harder and more powerful forehands? Maybe. As you have pointed out, getting lower and using more direct technique could result in a higher quality game. But Shuki has pointed out that currently, high arc forehands with consistency fit his rally game better than faster ones. Could change tomorrow, and then maybe he will think about staying lower. But even if not, people with worse forehands have played better table tennis. My concern with Shuki's game has been that aspects of his grip limit the amount of spin he can generate. But whether I am right or wrong, he has navigated that as best he can. Will be interesting to see where it goes.

I personally am not a fan of the serves, but it takes a certain kind of player to punish those repeatedly to make him use a different strategy and he is playing a friend.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

decided to record me and my teammate warming up/messing around yesterday. I feel this is something I have to start doing more, it feels strange to watch myself play but could be so useful. Hopefully I can get him to record some actual games with me next season.
Good fun to try new things and watch it back too, nice little around the net by him at the end

Hello Richie:

I'm new here, so I didn't know which was you until the end ... LOL at me

Nice shot by your partner!

Thank you for sharing your video with us!!

~osph

 

[NextLevel]

Hello Richie:

I'm new here, so I didn't know which was you until the end ... LOL at me

Nice shot by your partner!

Thank you for sharing your video with us!!

~osph

I'm a little older here and I didn't know either!

 

[Richie]

Haha, I'd be surprised if anyone knew, but that is me on the right indeed!

 

[Archosaurus]

Ahh, today was a good day.

Yesterday I said there are no stable blockers around here, but I lied. I forgot one player who doesn't play too much because of a recent minor injury. However he is getting better and playing more because he is basically healed. I played some matches with him and a chopper. I won most of them, but they were close. It's very refreshing to play against someone who knows how to block low and move the ball around. I think he is a better blocker than me to be honest. Much better.

The chopper wasn't an issue, and I could loop his chop even 5 times in a row and move him in and out with pushes and loops, but that's just because his overall level is somewhat lower. I can get his backspin over the net with just a good blade angle, so it's not very heavy at all. However I am proud that I could move to the ball and see the bounce well enough to slow loop it consistently even if the ball I produced is not a very quality ball.


After, I tried some NL-inspired straight arm looping on self hit balls, because I remembered his comments about lack of whip. I'd never tried to *really* let my arm go all the way back and whip forward, so I didn't know what to expect. I tried to copy the rhythm, and I hit it first try.

I actually had more success this way to get pace and spin than any other way I'd tried to now, which is funny because I thought I would just keep missing. However the timing feels very difficult to adapt to a real ball, and I can feel my body resisting the acceleration. I have newfound respect for NL's straight arm loop.

Normally my self hit topspin shots impact the wall opposite of me, come back some then spin back to the wall somewhat slowly. Straight arm shots like this will impact the wall, barely come back half a meter, spin to the wall, then rebound AGAIN a small distance and spin once more to the wall. Wow.

My rubber is worn and not a modern looping rubber, and I can actually feel the potential that I'm not using, so I really can't imagine what you can do with perfect mechanics and good equipment.

I've seen this kind of behavior from the ball on the ground even to a higher degree when watching top level pros training, but they aren't doing half as big strokes, and they're pretty soft compared to what they can do, so it's pretty incredible.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Ah, yes, he does. And I find that the experience of your failures is probably the most valuable thing that you can give people - how you tried to do something and it just didn't work, and how you think you solved it. Technical advice is common, connecting to people to give that advice not so much. But when people realize that you were where they were and experiencing similar problems and eventually solved them somehow, the problem tends to be less frightening.

I personally like Shuki's forehand (it's a backhand player's forehand) and his ability to play points like this one:

youtu.be/1qiEd_RA2EM?t=511

Could he play harder and more powerful forehands? Maybe. As you have pointed out, getting lower and using more direct technique could result in a higher quality game. But Shuki has pointed out that currently, high arc forehands with consistency fit his rally game better than faster ones. Could change tomorrow, and then maybe he will think about staying lower. But even if not, people with worse forehands have played better table tennis. My concern with Shuki's game has been that aspects of his grip limit the amount of spin he can generate. But whether I am right or wrong, he has navigated that as best he can. Will be interesting to see where it goes.

I personally am not a fan of the serves, but it takes a certain kind of player to punish those repeatedly to make him use a different strategy and he is playing a friend.

i don't think its a bad idea to go for consistency more than speed on the FH side as well. If you look at whats Shuki with his BH, he often waits for the 3rd or 4th ball to attack strongly.

I think you can still play high arc balls with lowering your upper body. There is no contradiction there. He can still play with 70% speed only and wait for the easier ball to attack

Lowering the upper body is important for many things:
- the lower your eyes, the better you see the ball
- you keep a better balance, if your body is upstraight there is a risk that you even "fall" back. We see that happening a few times when he is blocking the ball
- it helps get more into the ball, so more power more control
- it helps getting ready for the next shot.
- it will help coordinate your body and your arm

I am concerned with his grip as well. but it's very difficult to change, and it helps him on his BH, and at the mom, his FH misses have less to do with his grip than his footwork and not using his full body. So as long as he can play well with his current grip, its ok, but I think he should experiment a bit more.

 

[NextLevel]

Ahh, today was a good day.

Yesterday I said there are no stable blockers around here, but I lied. I forgot one player who doesn't play too much because of a recent minor injury. However he is getting better and playing more because he is basically healed. I played some matches with him and a chopper. I won most of them, but they were close. It's very refreshing to play against someone who knows how to block low and move the ball around. I think he is a better blocker than me to be honest. Much better.

The chopper wasn't an issue, and I could loop his chop even 5 times in a row and move him in and out with pushes and loops, but that's just because his overall level is somewhat lower. I can get his backspin over the net with just a good blade angle, so it's not very heavy at all. However I am proud that I could move to the ball and see the bounce well enough to slow loop it consistently even if the ball I produced is not a very quality ball.


After, I tried some NL-inspired straight arm looping on self hit balls, because I remembered his comments about lack of whip. I'd never tried to *really* let my arm go all the way back and whip forward, so I didn't know what to expect. I tried to copy the rhythm, and I hit it first try.

I actually had more success this way to get pace and spin than any other way I'd tried to now, which is funny because I thought I would just keep missing. However the timing feels very difficult to adapt to a real ball, and I can feel my body resisting the acceleration. I have newfound respect for NL's straight arm loop.

Normally my self hit topspin shots impact the wall opposite of me, come back some then spin back to the wall somewhat slowly. Straight arm shots like this will impact the wall, barely come back half a meter, spin to the wall, then rebound AGAIN a small distance and spin once more to the wall. Wow.

My rubber is worn and not a modern looping rubber, and I can actually feel the potential that I'm not using, so I really can't imagine what you can do with perfect mechanics and good equipment.

I've seen this kind of behavior from the ball on the ground even to a higher degree when watching top level pros training, but they aren't doing half as big strokes, and they're pretty soft compared to what they can do, so it's pretty incredible.

I will try to address this substantively:

Unless you have practiced something for a year or two, everything in table tennis is hard to adapt to a real ball. I don't care whether it is serving, blocking, flicking etc. I have been working on fixing my forehand for two years, I know I am a better player with better strokes, but my rating is the same, likely because my health doesn't let me practice match situations as much as I would like to and I was using rubbers that were too fast for my ideal game.

But my main point is that if you want to do something for 1 hour in practice, and I doubt you straight armed balls for an hour, and then use it in a match 10 minutes later and hit it with any consistency, you gotta move to Neverland because you will fit in there. People who can adapt technique that quickly are probably too talented to become really good table tennis players.

For me, my forehand strokes have always been too large - making them smaller and getting the core into the stroke has been the challenge. I started out with slower Chinese rubbers and was very much into straight arm strokes. Bent arm looping in the true sense is a new thing to me - I had bent arm hits and some kinds of strokes, but none of them were really good loops and were more because I lacked the footwork to get the body out of the way.

In any case, the ideal motion for looping isn't really a straight arm, but is some kind of whip. There are many whip motions, each with their advantages and disadvantages. Same with just about every stroke in table tennis. Learning the efficient ones and learning how to adapt them to each situation for risk and reward is the key. Counterlooping with a straight arm is risky but doable (See Wang Liqin and Fang Bo). Looping slow balls to kill with a bent arm is safe, but often gives the opponent's chances to hit the ball again (see most European players, especially Boll). So you just have to adapt.

As for the spin you are getting, that varies with a variety of things. You could probably still get more spin or good spin with an efficient bent arm motion but a straight arm motion should be your highest torque full loop. Would be surprised if it didn't maximize your power. IT should be like a discuss or javelin throw.

The next step is to recreate that feeling of whip in a smaller bent arm stroke. In this case, the upper arm and shoulder are more locked and most of the whip is from the elbow below (forearm and wrist).

 

[Archosaurus]

@NextLevel

I was straight arming balls for maybe half an hour at a slow pace. I've done it before but never to this extent, because I could never actually get my bat on the ball with a stroke like that until this day.

I'm not sure I've ever landed, or even attempted a stroke like this in a match or drill situation. I just don't have the timing and relaxation for it. I can understand what you mean when you say that it takes years.

Even if this stroke is far from ideal, I will try to develop it and take the good things from it into all of my strokes. It's the only thing I know that is closer to a high level of spin, and you yourself talk about maximizing spin as a focus. Surely a more efficient whip mechanic is more ideal, but it's somewhat beyond my reality. I just do what I can.

 

[RajaLoopah]

Today I won my first title in Mixed Doubles in our school Intramurals
I was banned to play in the Singles event by my teammates lol. I think my new blade helped a lot as it recovered my feel for the ball

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

“I am what I am, and that's all that I am.”
~Popeye

Got to the club early after work, ~5:30. Not many people there yet. Borrowed a net from the woman who is sort of like a coach. Played some member I never saw before. We were in the small area where there is a white wall on one side, and a gray enclosure on the other side. My partner wore a white t-shirt. Recipe for epic fail on my part.

I tried playing with my glasses on. It was very warm in that area and I sweated profusely. Decided to take glasses off. I'm near-sighted and the glasses helped a little but then due to heat in the area and sweat, it was a hindrance.

George Braithwaite aka "Chief" showed up... he generally plays on that table with a regular training partner. I told them if i win, they can have the table. I almost jinxed myself.

No video. My partner is a PH chopper(?!). From the warmup, my loops weren't consistent yet. At my current level, I cannot consistently loop and i don't have a controlled loop yet, my loops that make it are closer to loop kills, i can ramp it down a notch or 2, but anything below that, my loop will not land.

First 2 games, i stuck to my overall focus: Serve with a short pendulum motion instead of my long serve motions... down/side-down looking to 3rd ball spinny loop. Lost first 2 games easily, i was not looping well last night. I then had to realize the above-posted Popeye quote, and resorted to mixing in my regular game of side-top & rocket serves to punch/smash.

Partner ate my sidetop serves... if his return landed, they were popped up which resulted in some monster HULK SMASHES. Rocket serves - same thing, popped up returns.

M2 was sitting on the side and chatting with Chief. I had a few sidedown serves which i pivoted and 3rd ball loop/loop kill. M2 commented on one of my 3rd ball loops, it reminded him of Steven Mo. Chief, M2 and I chuckled. Steven was a 2400 PH from the 1980's that played at the Chinatown Firehouse. M2 played a little with Steven after the firehouse closed down. I used to watch Steven play a lot. Chief used to play Steven a lot. I am nowhere close to Steven's level lol

M2 called my loop an 'inside out' loop. I am not up on the terminology on the game yet. I served pendulum from my BH side to partner's BH side and 3rd ball looped to partner's BH side instead of to FH side/down the line. Is this an inside out loop?

Won next 3 games.

Hit with B1 next. I've been blocking for him past few times to help him on his loops. After ~20 mins, I asked if i could work my serves, and B1 was ok with it. Started off with the down/sidedown and tried to 3rd ball spinny loop, then went to rockets to his BH and then he served and i used my LP Ox for the first time. No real intention currently of learning to use my LP, but was just messing with it. Loops still need a lot of work. Also tried to RPB loop with my MX-P. Made some decent ones, missed many.

We both had fun and chuckled a lot. Called it a night after that.

Looking forward to tonight and see if i can get a table to just practice with K. I jokingly call him my arch nemesis, but he understands what I'm trying to do and has given me tips in the past. In the past, if no one has next on the table, we were both able to train. We mutually gain from our training sessions.