Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[OldschoolPenholder]

I'm curious if any of you have set plans or ideas you like to achieve in service receive in addition to service? I think it's a useful tool. I know some players at our club who are solid players who often times just put the ball in play and like to get into the rally. So for those players, I'm not sure how much thought they put into planning.

One of the aspects i need to work on in my game is serve receive - specifically reading spin.

But in general, I do do (heh heh osph said 'do do' lol) what you mention:

* generally if short downspin to my BH, push back to partner's BH side
* if rocket serve or topspin to my BH - 80% of the time punch it down the line to partner's FH side
* if short to my FH, look to pick/flick but my pick technique is bad, so i FH push back/float back generally to partner's FH side
* when i was way younger, i would be 50/50% in aggressive 2nd ball attack to my BH with pivot ... now older i'm 25% 2nd ball attack to my BH - dependent on how 'fresh' i am - that is how energetic i feel LOL

As one plays a match vs a live opponent ... adaptations have to be made ... cannot always rely on one's best shots/combos/setups ... one who doesn't adapt loses generally. The best strategy is to play to your partner's weaknesses. It's a weakness, exploit it! And if your partner is a friend or regular partner, you are helping him/her improve their game by forcing them to address their weakness. One is only as strong as their weakest link.

Can't find the appropriate Sun Tzu quote now LOL but am sure he said something like this already LOL

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

OSPH, i watched your videos. I think you're a good player. You already know a lot of things about TT, you understand spin, you have some combos etc...Obviously you've played a long time.

The big problem alas is the O from OSPH, you're not so young, (how old are you ?), and i don't know how hard it is for you, but you should try to move a bit more. Thats really what i can see most on the video. Also, as a PH, a lot of your opponents will be aiming to your BH, and you should improve receiving long and half long serves directed to your BH side. You should be more consistent there and have more than just one option.

I feel you've wasted also some points trying to attack balls where you were late to position yourself, or which looked easy, but were not (ex: a bit high but with backspin; slow but shallow so need to position correctly)

When I play PH, what i hate most, is the traditional BH block down the line. you should be able to use this tactic more often.

Finally, as a PH, you should be able to use your wrist more when serving and add more spin to your serves.
My "trick" when receiving: always try to get the ball early. you get more control, and you put more pressure on the server.

 

[Archosaurus]

I think this is pretty obvious, but I find it good to ignore the ball travel and just track it from your peripheral to judge if it's a low or high toss, but mostly pay attention to what the server is doing with their body and what contact they make.

There has to be some tell tales of direction, depth and spin imparted if you look close enough. I feel that speed, when facing a good server, is mostly a surprise. Good servers seem to be able to speed up a seemingly short, slow serve with the same motion, so you probably won't be able to read that. Of course, if they do something unconscious like stick their tongue out, turn their head a bit more towards the table, lean in a bit more or less or something, then that could be a tell tale.

 

[suds79]

OSPH,

Love the video. I like your game. There are aspects of it I think are pretty good.

Your kill shot on FH when the ball is over the table is fast and lethal.

I don't know about you but I think my backhand blocking with RPB is better & more consistent than my TPB. At least vs heavy loops or power shots when you really need to get your block on top of the ball to keep it from flying off too far. The RPB is just easier to do that... This coming from a guy who grew up TPB.

Futhermore, in your match play. 1:53, 3:37. Need that RPB. Be so much easier.

Keep at it. You can do it.

I love penhold. I call it an athlete's position. But as we get older, I'm 38. I know you're somewhere in the same ballpark. Maybe a pinch older, lets be honest. Our athleticism isn't the same as when we were in our 20s. So for that I think we need to scoot more & more towards the middle. With having more of the backhand exposed, that's where I think it's valuable to play the RPB. Keep at it. You don't have to go full Wang Hao where you use it exclusively. Go baby steps and go Ma Lin who still used the TPB but when he wanted to attack, it was RPB.

Your backhand serve seems really spiny. I take it you have top & back variations of it? Could just be the matchup but he didn't smoke those as much as he could every now & then a FH serve. ex: 3:57. But again. Some players just excel vs certain things.

And don't worry about the errors as you stated in your post. I think all of us when we watch back our videos we're all a little horrified how many points we give away. I don't think anybody here is a professional. It's called being an amateur unfortunately. We just try our best to cut them down as much as possible.

PS - And take it from me. I contemplated very seriously a switch to shakehand. But i wouldn't get too far into it before the thought of never playing penhold again made me sad. To the hell with whatever is better. If you love penhold. then play penhold.

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Great Videos OSPH ,

YOU ARE TOO KIND ttmonster! LOL Thank you though!

the shorter version could not satisfy me so I ended up watching up the longer once . Both of you are good players , I can't tell about the level of 42 and backpains ,

He started a tad later than the rest of us, but has continued with it when, some like me, stopped playing. He has also had professional coaching at least 1x a week for about 2 yrs. all our friends agree he is the best of us. however, 42&bp is fighting back pains as well as other injuries

but in the videos he was playing close to 1900 level is what I felt , and since you took a game from him there is no way you are 1200 my friend ...

He wasn't playing seriously ... no way i should take a game from him with a backup racket i'm using for only the 3rd time as well as coming off a long enough break

Since you did put some observations on yourself , I will try to put forth my 2 cents :

your stance to receive serve is too side on and forehand oriented for playing RPB or SH , I actually liked your shake hand but felt your grip had your index finger too far up on the blade and was making it difficult for you to hit BHs.

i noticed my grip AFTER i watched the videos... while playing i thought i had index finger lower ... lol at me

and .. 42 and Back pains is right , on the backhand SH or RPB your hands are falling down and then coming up and then you are trying to compensate it by closing the angle too quickly which is resulting in you hitting the net , at least thats what I saw , I am sure others will have better advise ... but I still want you to play SH my friend

Thank you ttmonster ... he is often right on many things (pssst, don't tell him i said that!) ... as i have had no formal training in SH, nor ever played it with any seriousness, just messing around in the past for a few games as our crew played 'opposite style', definitely taking advice.

However, on parts of the vids, you may have heard my friends on the sidelines all LOL me for playing SH. to be fair to you, i have tried to play SH, but for now I doubt if i would convert. Have too much fun playing PH - haven't gotten to a decent enough level to give up PH, definitely lack the consistency i had 30+ yrs ago.

i may convert at some point, but for now, will play it for fun to learn SH so i can counter it a tad better as PH as well as trying to break through my wall. Thank you my friend for your advice and encouragement!

 

[suds79]

Dang OSPH too many good things to hit on.

Since you have a nice backhand serve, I thought I'd share this with you in case you've never seen it.

I swear if I can ever figure out & execute my backhand serve variations 1/2 as good as this gentlemen here, it's all over for everybody.

Seriously I have trouble telling the difference even in slow motion.

Unfortunately have no idea what he's saying in this video.

 

[Vrael]

I can't read this serve even in slow motion (9:23) and I understand what he is saying

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

OSPH, i watched your videos. I think you're a good player. You already know a lot of things about TT, you understand spin, you have some combos etc...Obviously you've played a long time.

Thank you for your gracious comments as well as watching my videos Sir! But er, I'm not a good player... my definition of a 'good player' is to be at least be steady and consistent, which i still lack.

The big problem alas is the O from OSPH, you're not so young, (how old are you ?),

Not shy to say I'm 52 lol

and i don't know how hard it is for you, but you should try to move a bit more. Thats really what i can see most on the video. Also, as a PH, a lot of your opponents will be aiming to your BH, and you should improve receiving long and half long serves directed to your BH side. You should be more consistent there and have more than just one option.

My footwork is bad even when i was younger. But generally now some balls i am able to move to it ... hence my preference to close-to-the table play. But i came off a 3 to 5 months recuperation for my achy shoulder. So i factor partly of lack of movement to 'ring rust'. Only my 3rd time playing since my recuperation break.

Re: BH comments - i am using a backup racket, NextLevel's prize from his Christmas contest. Only my 3rd time using it. I have not sanded the wings down the first 2 times i used it. But i've found i can handle the weight and sanded it a little prior to playing this past Sunday. Still needs more sanding. Because of using new racket and lack of sanding the wings down, my BH (punch as well block) is not what it should be. For whatever reason, since the months off, i find i cannot use my main blade, Nexy Amazon. When I was playing regularly, my BH is closer to the form I used to have ages ago just lack the consistency/steadiness.

I feel you've wasted also some points trying to attack balls where you were late to position yourself, or which looked easy, but were not (ex: a bit high but with backspin; slow but shallow so need to position correctly)

That's the part of me that is 1200! Not sure if you know of Takuan Soho and/or Yagyu Munenori. They wrote about having a fluid mind, not abiding and fixating on any one thought ... sadly, I abide/fixate on and was not mentally fluid to adjust to the dynamics o fthe point.

When I play PH, what i hate most, is the traditional BH block down the line. you should be able to use this tactic more often.

Sometime last year, at the time, my main blade was the Avalox P700. Showed some of the losers as well as winners to show the fact that i'm inconsistent.

Finally, as a PH, you should be able to use your wrist more when serving and add more spin to your serves.
My "trick" when receiving: always try to get the ball early. you get more control, and you put more pressure on the server.

Thank you for the trick on receive! One of the weakest aspects of my game is serve receive as I cannot read spin consistently. Re: wrist ... lately been focusing on whip mechanics in serve... misunderstood NextLevel's videos/comments and after speaking with 42andbackpains and your advice, i know what i will correct next time i go play.

Domo arigato gozaimashita Sir!

 

[ttmonster]

OSPH , for me and I think for you too, the serve receive issue is purely a "focus" issue. You need to figure out a mental routine when you get to your ready position , like telling yourself you need to watch closely the impact and the first bounce , for me thats all I need to keep thinking consistently , the rest of your reaction would be natural. Now if you find out a particular weakness against a particular serve , then its a different problem to solve which might need some practice and a little more thought ..

I have seen traditional penholders or rather my regular partner have a distinct disadvantage returning heavy backpsin serve to their backhand short , half long etc . But since you are deciding to play PH , you should have some ready solution ... the other thing my regular partner does very often very effectively , even though he is a very polite guy and thinks its a cheat , nonetheless it works is side-swiping balls which are uncomfortable especially those to the short middle , if you can do the traditional penholders hit with the backhand , this might be a good setup , and its not easy to tell the exact spin on the side swipe ...

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

OSPH,

Love the video. I like your game. There are aspects of it I think are pretty good.

Thank you for your kind words suds!

Your kill shot on FH when the ball is over the table is fast and lethal.

Thank you ... when younger, one of the most consistent aspects of my game was my FH smash ... i love smashing - ages ago, i was fortunate to practice with Rey Domingo, a 2400 player back in the early 1980's. He helped my smashing game in a big way - he was a steady lobber. FTR, my serves, block and punch were the other aspects. Playing higher level players though my serves were not as effective as players my level or lower.

I don't know about you but I think my backhand blocking with RPB is better & more consistent than my TPB. At least vs heavy loops or power shots when you really need to get your block on top of the ball to keep it from flying off too far. The RPB is just easier to do that... This coming from a guy who grew up TPB.

That means a lot to me! for the record though, only my 3rd time trying modern PH's RPB. I have not really watched videos in depth to learn it, didn't think i would find a setup/weight my wrist could handle... as mentioned in one of the PH threads, i may have the onset of carpal tunnel syndrome. And 5 to 10 yrs of one-sided PH play, plus the ~2 years since my 'unretirement' after a 30+ yrs layoff, I am not used to the weight of 2 inverted on regular CPen.

The blade i used is an American Hinoki, the combo of smaller blade plus hinoki wood, makes the whole setup not taxing on my wrist. Only because of this setup have i even thought seriously about the modern PH style.

Futhermore, in your match play. 1:53, 3:37. Need that RPB. Be so much easier.

Keep at it. You can do it.

Yeah, the RPB is not part of my game yet. I dk if i will ever 'get' it. Ever heard of the OODA Loop? Col John Boyd,a fighter pilot for the US, formulated the OODA Loop theory. It refers to the decision cycle of Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. I'm see the ball (Observe), but stuck between moving to the ball (Orient) and thinking of how to return (Decide) ... by the time I try to hit the ball (Act), it's too late and i miss or return poorly.

If i stuck to my oldschool ph play, i either push/block/punch back - despite 3 choices, i won't be that slow in returning. But now adding one more stroke slows me down ... as i'm consciously trying the RPB, i am finding out i need to fight the urge to either push/block/punch back.

I love penhold. I call it an athlete's position. But as we get older, I'm 38. I know you're somewhere in the same ballpark. Maybe a pinch older, lets be honest. Our athleticism isn't the same as when we were in our 20s.

LOl, yeah, just a pinch older, I'm 52.

So for that I think we need to scoot more & more towards the middle. With having more of the backhand exposed, that's where I think it's valuable to play the RPB. Keep at it. You don't have to go full Wang Hao where you use it exclusively. Go baby steps and go Ma Lin who still used the TPB but when he wanted to attack, it was RPB.

I already 'cheat' and am closer to the middle, however, you are right about the RPB if i cheat one more step ... it was evident on the 2 times you noted: 1:53, 3:37.

Your backhand serve seems really spiny. I take it you have top & back variations of it? Could just be the matchup but he didn't smoke those as much as he could every now & then a FH serve. ex: 3:57. But again. Some players just excel vs certain things.

I have a top variation, but i think my BH sidedown is heavy on the downspin and stronger than my top variation ... many partners underestimate it. My old regular doubles partner was a good FH looper (better than me). I would serve the BH sidedown which gave him more room for a better 'look' at 2nd ball as well as room for FH loop. Yeah 42&bp 'ate' some of my bh sidedown serves.

And don't worry about the errors as you stated in your post. I think all of us when we watch back our videos we're all a little horrified how many points we give away. I don't think anybody here is a professional. It's called being an amateur unfortunately. We just try our best to cut them down as much as possible.

Roger that! Denzel Washington's Robert McCall/The Equalizer: "Progress not perfection." has been my mantra since 2014 when the movie came out lol

PS - And take it from me. I contemplated very seriously a switch to shakehand. But i wouldn't get too far into it before the thought of never playing penhold again made me sad. To the hell with whatever is better. If you love penhold. then play penhold.

Yeah, i recall that and posted i was sad to see a PH go, but happy for you if SH made you happy. Was happy when you returned to PH ... lol at me.

But ultimately we each should do what makes us happy... for the moment i'm happy to play SH and modern PH ... to better understand my partners lol - the Sun Tzu cliche of know your enemy and yourself...

Thank you suds for your comments!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Dang OSPH too many good things to hit on.

Since you have a nice backhand serve, I thought I'd share this with you in case you've never seen it.

I swear if I can ever figure out & execute my backhand serve variations 1/2 as good as this gentlemen here, it's all over for everybody.

Seriously I have trouble telling the difference even in slow motion.

Unfortunately have no idea what he's saying in this video.

Domo arigato gozaimashita suds-san! I've never seen it and wow! I marvel at his stroke/serve motion and generating the different spins!!

I need a lot of work for my BH top/sidetop serves. Thank you again, this vid is inspirational.

 

[Richie]

I can't read this serve even in slow motion (9:23) and I understand what he is saying

I would love for a translation of this video..

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

OSPH , for me and I think for you too, the serve receive issue is purely a "focus" issue. You need to figure out a mental routine when you get to your ready position , like telling yourself you need to watch closely the impact and the first bounce , for me thats all I need to keep thinking consistently , the rest of your reaction would be natural. Now if you find out a particular weakness against a particular serve , then its a different problem to solve which might need some practice and a little more thought ..

Thank you for the tip... part of the reason may be i wear glasses but when playing i don't ... partly to hopefully help my eyes get stronger but also part vanity, as when i played in the past, i didn't wear glasses at all... glasses on, am an old man, glasses off, i'm that young man ... LOLOLOL at me (i made that last part up, or did i? lol)

I have seen traditional penholders or rather my regular partner have a distinct disadvantage returning heavy backpsin serve to their backhand short , half long etc . But since you are deciding to play PH , you should have some ready solution ... the other thing my regular partner does very often very effectively , even though he is a very polite guy and thinks its a cheat , nonetheless it works is side-swiping balls which are uncomfortable especially those to the short middle , if you can do the traditional penholders hit with the backhand , this might be a good setup , and its not easy to tell the exact spin on the side swipe ...

Thank you for the reminder ttmonster!! old man memory ... ugh... suds posted a vid of himself with various strokes and he showed the sideswipe which i didn't remember ... will have to train it a little to get it back ... although in the past, 42&bp has commented that i do that on BH to BH warmup - if so, i unconsciously do it... need to consciously do it for serve receive.

Thank you again ttmonster!!

 

[ttmonster]

Wearing glasses has helped me a lot , you will have to solve the sweat trickling issue though , I wear a football helmet inner cap to resolve that to some extent .. works better for me than the head band ...

Thank you for the tip... part of the reason may be i wear glasses but when playing i don't ... partly to hopefully help my eyes get stronger but also part vanity, as when i played in the past, i didn't wear glasses at all... glasses on, am an old man, glasses off, i'm that young man ... LOLOLOL at me (i made that last part up, or did i? lol)



Thank you for the reminder ttmonster!! old man memory ... ugh... suds posted a vid of himself with various strokes and he showed the sideswipe which i didn't remember ... will have to train it a little to get it back ... although in the past, 42&bp has commented that i do that on BH to BH warmup - if so, i unconsciously do it... need to consciously do it for serve receive.

Thank you again ttmonster!!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

Wearing glasses has helped me a lot , you will have to solve the sweat trickling issue though , I wear a football helmet inner cap to resolve that to some extent .. works better for me than the head band ...

I didn't mention that, old man memory, actually SWEATING is the main reason i don't wear glasses. i sweat a lot and distracting for me to keep wiping with glasses on. For now, i've come up with nothing, may look into the football helmet inner cap ... or not ... maybe my vanity and ego is getting the better of me in keeping in thinking i'm young as i don't 'need' glasses lolol

 

[Vrael]

I would love for a translation of this video..

unfortunately I have quite a lot to do at university, maybe during summer break... well, if You are a mystical creature called female then it is a different story

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

well, if You are a mystical creature called female then it is a different story

She is, so please translate for her... lol at me!

 

[OldschoolPenholder]

For the record, for the longest time, i've avoided playing the modern PH style ... mostly because my wrist couldn't handle the weight of 2 inverted. I've found my wrist could handle a new racket (new for me, but blade is actually old and used and received as a prize in NextLevel's Christmas contest) with 2 inverted sheets... American Hinoki CPen ... blade is noticeably smaller than other CPen's i've used.

Messing around with modern PH style now.

Last weekend, a friend gave me his old beatup Butterfly Taksim CPen. Last year, I've tried his newer Taksim and couldn't get used to it ... fast forward to last weekend, tried it again and i was making my shots and getting used to it. He gave me his old Taksim as it was beat up. May use it as my 2nd backup blade.

Will take pix and post tonight or tomorrow.

 

[Nuke Skywalker]

I am actually leaving the DC area today after having been here since Sunday. I went to meet up with friends drom TTEdge at WDTTC. Couldn't play as much as I would have liked with my arthritis but still played a decent amount. Played a young Chinese footwork and forehand guy who had one of the most stunning pivot motions I have seen... my forehand block wasnt working well enough to win that one since i could not move on my right knee. If some one could magically heal my arthritis I can see evidence of strong play.

Did a little coaching based on things my friends asked for snd things I saw during the matches I played against them. Both of them are going to break 2100 easily when they get two winged close to the table games. But neitherreally has the power to do it backing up which they do way too often.

Didn't play Charlene this time (should have) but played her husband. He has clearly slowed down but two winged opening is hard to shut down if your style was developed in an era when you could relax if someone didnt have the time or footwork to pivot and when your best shot is your pivot.

Uh...hello!?
Let me know when you are in town so we can have a hit!

 

[Der_Echte]

Thanks for the info, Der. I will for sure play somewhere, as I am used to playing almost every day 2 or 3 hours...and a whole week without would be tough! My wife will be accompanying me; she is beginner-ish level...under 1000, but I want her to get some outside experience, so will have to accommodate that in timing a club visit. Travel for us will be metro, bus or uber/taxi. Flying tomorrow.

None of the clubs are accessible by public trans and uber will still cost a lot...

Wdctt is the closest to public trsns but still a pain.

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