Safesport program

[WorkerBee]

Here is a youtube video going over the basics for protecting youth in sports. With the Larry Nassar verdict of 175 years based on 100's of testimonies, it is clearly a danger. I recommend getting the local Emergency Room number for athletes and parents to report. Nurses are fully trained and licensed to handle abuse situations, they will always make time for talking about the options. USATT is in the middle of it's year-long program.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL7B87TVqSI

 

[Der_Echte]

If someone is sexually assaulted, receiving immediate medical assistance (and knowing how to make that happen) is prudent. First priority is safety. Other stuff follows. Undergoing a proper forensic exam and reporting the crime to the proper authorities in a timely manner is also important.

How many cases exist where a victim finally DOES decide to pursue justice, but it is too late for physical evidence to be collected or it is compromised. Pursuing justice in court WITH proper physical evidence is difficult enough, but without it, good luck.

One could make a good argument that training the individual and collectively all people how predators prey, know the signs, know how to run interference and not have it happen in the first place... a good argument exists for that.

Even so, that doesn't prevent all of this kind of crime. Still, knowing what to face and how to handle it ahead of time makes a difference.

Someone could have been reported for a rape, beat it in court, moved out of the county, and SafeSport might not have caught it.

One positive aspect of modern times, in USA, the TT world is so small and TT forums and other social media are used to an extent that if a coach or club owner does such a crime, yet somehow became not guilty in court, public opinion and use of the forums would make that one known a mile before they entered a TT gym.

 

[Der_Echte]

Coach Larry Hodges makes a lot of discussion about the introduction of SafeSport and his disagreements about it being implemented.

On one level, I agree with Larry's point that the SafeSport system is a total CYA job. CYA stands for Cover Your Azz... the SafeSport is there to cover the Azz of the US Olympic Committee and possible USATT. USOC, when faced with lawsuits, can say "Hey court, LOOK, we made a screening system MANDATORY for all our sports... we fulfilled our responsibilities".. even if the screening system used is laughable ineffective at identifying sexual assault predators. That is why it is a CYA operation. Do something to legally protect organization, but not do something reasonably effective.

Larry have made mention of this several times the last 6 plus months in his blog.

On another level, I disagree with him... on his blog he makes note of how difficult (or at least not immediately intuitive easy) it is to follow the instructions, get through the process... blah blah blah. Dude, I been in military for 30 years that had us do paperwork drill crap like that every week that was 10x more tedious... and still do our jobs. I got by it and I am a box of rocks. He is off track barking up that tree. I have no inclination hearing any of that. Got a task you gotta do, want it enough?, just do it, walk through a long field of crap 3 ft high to get to the other end if you have too.

Where he makes some sense going up that tree is that overall, making things even a TINY bit more inconvenient is gunna demotivate and discourage weak minded people from completing the process... which means that there will likely be less USATT registered clubs and coaches and referees completing the process... so the result is LESS clubs listed on USATT and maybe LESS sanctioned tourneys if the nearby clubs (sometimes the nearby club is still a 500km drive !!) fail to complete it...

That last point has a actual negative impact on TT in USA, because USOC is implementing a CYA job on USATT knowing lazy or weak minded people are not gunna do it. That isn't good.

The SafeSport process also demands the Social Security Number... so some will not cough that up to do this. Heck, if I got even $1 for every time I had to write down my SSN on military paperwork just my FIRST TEN YEARS in military, I would have a very tidy net worth rivaling Bill Gates.


Ultimately... tough teeties. It is ONE process and can be done with even half-azz minimal determination and it costs ZERO additional money to the individual... it is included already in annual membership.

US TT players interested in being coaches or owners or TT bureaucrats should embrace this bullcrap CYA paperwork drill and get it done. It is a step in the right direction and a LOT better prevention than the ZERO that existed before. The actual mental anguish is minimal and the cost is already paid, the situation utilizing SafeSport is a net gain.

 

[Loopadoop]

Larry Nassar case - anytime there is government funding involved, if there are multiple reports against someone, there should be a federal task force set up to investigate a potential cover up. It still could be done in that case.

 

[Der_Echte]

Loopadoop...

Feds investigating Feds... that has potential to go well and impartial...

OK... which congressional appropriation has been passed into law for this?

Which department will have authority?

Which Agency will do it?

How many of which grade are needed?

Where will these federal employees come from? Just about every federal department is having most employees do multiple roles in daily work already... is there a pool of investigator qualified federal employees drawing pay just sitting in a break room eating donuts and drinking coffee just waiting for their boss to task organize them?

Will they investigate using Google earth or actually go try to locations? Have you seen how much dollars get charges for a federal employee's hotel, per diem, rent car, in and around travel, misc expenses, salary, benefits, govt contributions...

How is this task force gunna know there are multiple reports? Place two of their fingers on their head, move them around, close their eyes, and wish they were in Kansas ?

Such a system of picking up reports to school or organizational bureaucrats and or whatever place anyone can report anything are not integrated. It does not exist.

What congressional law has been or will be eminently passed mandating this and appropriating funds for it?

You get the picture?

These are just some of the considerations when new tasks are mandated.

I am not even gunna get into making govt even bigger and the mission creep that keeps making it bigger.

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[WorkerBee]

...
How many of which grade are needed?...

Dear Der, the people beginning the investigation needed for a working SafeSport program have barely started. While I appreciate your heartfelt suspicions about useless bureaucrats I would point out that there is serious work that can be done to prevent rapists who use gatherings of youth to set up their predatory schemes. But you cannot criticize it as useless until they actual do nothing. You have to monitor their actions, not just trash them before any work is done. You might as well do nothing, but maybe that is your intention? If doing nothing is your plan, say so. If your experience with the military leads you to this cynical conclusion, I would suggest the the military has the worst record of all bureaucracies ever, hardly a model. Keeping such endeavors in the hands of parents as much as possible is far more enlightened than any military could ever be. Unless you start to designate mothers as Perental Units (Grade 6) and force them to type in triplicate.

 

[Der_Echte]

Worker Bee, feel free at any time to detail how to make effective steps... even if it is 1/4 the level and scope of what I proposed in earlier posts.

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[Der_Echte]

BTW, I said the steps Safesport does is "Laughably Ineffective" not useless. The steps Safesport takes are very weak, but I rated the process as a net gain and exhort all to complete it. It is a step in the right direction to make predictors aware someone might be watching closer, but it is horribly short of effective steps that are needed.

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[Der_Echte]

The military is a paradox on the topic of sexual assault.

On one hand, the conditions and situational ingredients for predictors are much higher than other civilian situations... and military had a real horrible culture the past decades that tolerated or helped predictors. No further examples are needed, some of the most notorious ones are well known.

On the other hand, with what the military has done about prevention of sexual assault and making an infrastructure to address it and support it, and protect victims and their choice of privacy or assistance to help them pursue justice... it isn't even close. No organization is doing effective steps in prevention training and support infastructure to the degree the military is doing.

Most Soldiers get hours long prevention training from trained personnel anywhere from 2 to 10 times a year. Command dictates mandatory periodic and many special sessions. IBM and Amazon do not get this much training.

Soldiers are taught the predatory methods and how to watch each other's backs. They are taught many intervening methods. IBM isn't this detailed.

Soldiers are taught who is ready to help. There are 2 advocates for every 100 Soldiers and 2 at each level of command. IBM doesn't hire this many.

Soldiers are taught the legal process and how to preserve evidence. They are taught how they can keep command and police out of it if they choose only medical and related assistance.

They are taught how to be vigilant and who to report even suspicions to.

They are be allowed unlimited duty time off to pursue treatment and legal options. I doubt IBM will let there people off with full pay for months on end.

Even with effective prevention training (multiple times helps effectiveness), even with a trained force, assaults are still happening... and it is unacceptable. It is shameful. I cannot use enough English words for it.

Until we have no criminals around us, the means to do so, and a high degree of likelihood they will get away (or indifference to getting caught).. we will still have crime.

The military has taken a whole lot of steps in the right direction. Besides detailing Sergeants to make roving patrols (they do that already) to go into everyone's rooms without notice (obvious rights issues) or go into workplaces unannounced, it is going to be challenging.

Sexual assault is a very under reported crime. The actual incidents could go down and reporting rates could go up... that would result in more reports, but who really knows? Maybe one day everyone would report and really make it so a predator realizes there is little to no chance of getting away with it.

Prevention training, individual and collective awareness and will, and infrastructure are the most effective approaches to reduce and eventually eliminate the crime.

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[Der_Echte]

I might not like this comment or that... but it leads to discussion and awareness.

Someone who has followed this discussion might see something and do something from the good things we have discussed. That has a value.

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[Loopadoop]

There should be a Nationwide data base set up that has reports like on Larry Nassar. Then it can be linked for any new investigation.

Larry Nassar case of investigating a potential cover up, the FBI would be a good team of choice for now.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

In reading this thread, I get that WorkerBee is concerned with the subject of safeguarding childhood athletes from predators. Der_Echte wants it known that while something is better than nothing, more should be done. And Loopadoop wants to make sure there is an investigation into those who enabled Nassar to do what he did for so long.

Unfortunately, I am not sure there will be an investigation.

I think the people responsible for making what Larry Nassar did possible by insisting he was beyond suspicion will face scrutiny as a result of civil cases that involve compensation to the victims. But I doubt any of those will lead to criminal charges. Only if a prosecutor deems that it can be proved that some specific person knew what Nassar was doing and was complicit in aiding Nassar in keeping those crimes from being uncovered would a criminal court try a case like that.


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[Der_Echte]

OK Loopadoop,

Do you really want our nation to have some dirty bureaucrat top dog possess the free reign to investigate anyone they want at will on their own initiative without a criminal complaint? Think of the potential for abuse, it is already bad enough, why add fuel to the fire?

Suggest workable solutions any time.

We need to as citizens understand how our criminal justice system works. Yeah, it almost takes a degree to understand half of it, but what the heck. We need to understand it, then help hold the system accountable. It is possible to bring public scrutiny to people who do not do their jobs properly. Judges get elected, so do sheriffs. Social media can get a public outraged if a certain thing gets enough traction. Many ways.

Rape is a criminal offense. If reported to the proper authorities, like POLICE, with a criminal complaint, then the Police must investigate. If the evidence is strong enough, then the District Attorney gets involved and takes it to the level of obtaining an indictment, then a trial. It is also possible to bring complaints and lawsuits against individuals and departments. It happens all the time and many NGOs are out there to support this for good or bad. I do not see the ACU, the ADL, or others being in the forefront of the effort to make the situation better though.

Rape Crimes hardly ever make it to trial for many factors.

1) Rape is way under-reported - MAYBE reported 15% of the time, who really knows, it is not like we have google earth watching everything and calculating it for us. It is just a best guess. Victims have MANY reasons for not reporting timely. IF someone beat the crap outta you, scared the bejesus outta you, tortured you violating you in ways unimaginable when you were already at a physical disadvantage, your mind stressed at 1000%, I could go on, but just the sheer trauma of the crime done against you would make you not exactly function all perfectly normal and clear. You might be afraid the perp will kill you, or afraid of others knowing and shaming you. Many reasons exist. It isn't easy.

2) Even when a rape is reported, very often, physical evidence is not collected promptly and correctly. For many of the reasons above, having the presence of mind to preserve the evidence and get the forensic exam done isn't exactly in the forefront of a victim's mind. It takes a LOT of moral courage for a victim to do all the needed things promptly to pursue justice.

3) Evidence gets mishandled or compromised before it is entered in court.

4) Attitudes favorable to the rapist make punishment a laughing joke given the circumstances of the crime. Heck, you saw the news I recently posted about a rapist of a 13yr old girl he tied down and did his crime getting ZERO jail time because he was legaly blind! HELLO MCFLY District Attorney, you are a prime candidate to not serve the public or practice law. Judges do this too. Investigators do this too. You ought to hear some of the questions and how they are asked to a victim while they are still in a state of trauma. Be thankful we are in USA, in Korea, if the victim did not resist enough (like maybe to the point of ripping the rapist skin off everywhere) they are not guilty, heck, if they were drunk they get off half the time, heck, if they say they are sorry to the family before trial they get it light.... check out link below.

www.rokdrop.net/2009/05/gi-flashbacks-the-2004-taxi-cab-rape-case/

www.rokdrop.net/tag/sexual-assault/page/2/

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So, yeah, if you cannot show beyond a reasonable doubt that people whose actions enabled Nassar to do what he did, knew he was doing it and were purposefully helping him, then my understanding is that there is no reason for the government to investigate those people.

And it is most likely that the people who helped Nassar escape scrutiny did so while thinking he was innocent.

So, while I might hope that they were made to face the music, I am not so sure there is a way to make that happen.


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[WorkerBee]

So, yeah, if you cannot show beyond a reasonable doubt that people whose actions enabled Nassar to do what he did, knew he was doing it and were purposefully helping him, then my understanding is that there is no reason for the government to investigate those people.

And it is most likely that the people who helped Nassar escape scrutiny did so while thinking he was innocent.

So, while I might hope that they were made to face the music, I am not so sure there is a way to make that happen. ...

My goodness Carl, you are way behind the times on this case. It has become an international case in the news every day, and you are hiding where it has developed to. The president of the university and the director of school athletics have resigned in disgrace based upon their collusion. People have killed themselves out of shame and complicity. The police involved have admitted their responsibility over 20 years. Those responsible for letting it go on for 20 years are each having the light shone on them, and the effects are only just beginning to be felt. The issue is not to make a case beyond a reasonable doubt to get the government to get involved. The issue, and quite correctly, is to turn up the lights on these rotten events, to bring them all to public attention, to not back down even as the school president makes half-assed statements about how she was being careful in handling the events in a professional way, blah, blah, blah. All these bureaucrats swimming in the glory and money surrounding the olympic gymnasts who were being raped every day for decades are facing the truth finally. The lesson is that we have to act as a society when girls are raped. And this is the lesson for now, for us in Table Tennis, in building an effective SafeSport program in which parents, coaches, and players are brought into motion against the vile rapists who lurk in the shadows. Either you want to set up a vigilant and effective program to protect our athletes, or you don't.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

It is good to see how enthusiastic about this subject you are WorkerBee. It is worth having someone so concerned about the subject.

Will the FBI get involved? I don't know? Will there be a thorough and proper investigation of everyone whose actions helped Nassar--whether intentionally or unintentionally? I would hope so. But I doubt it.

Is the press shining a light on this? Yes. And they really should be.

But will it lead to Grand Juries deciding the cases are fit to go to trial? I am not so sure.

Yes these people would have lost their jobs if they had not resigned. And rightfully so.

I would be happy to hear that there are CRIMINAL CASES in the court system against those who have resigned in disgrace.

But, when you see actual criminal proceedings against any of these people, let me know.

Probably the civil cases of the victims against the University, and the Olympic Gymnastic Committee are the ones that will show the most leverage. Similar cases against the the individuals involved probably will not leverage the same kind of results as the cases against the organizations, because, frankly, the organizations are the ones with the insurance to pay the fees awarded by the courts. That is just how civil cases usually work. If you sue the person directly responsible, you cannot get anywhere near as much of a settlement fee or an award as you would get if you sue the organization for whom they worked.

But when you see news about actual criminal cases being leveraged in court, with sentences of real jail time for the people who thought Nasser was actually doing things a doctor should do, then let me know. I am happy to be behind the times on this subject. If there are criminal cases in progress against those who should have protected those girls, I will be happy. If there are even real, nuts and bolts investigations into criminal acts by those people, I would like to know. But the press giving information on their ineptitude, that is not a criminal case. Even though it is better than nothing.

However, I think your enthusiasm for justice in this area leads you to misinterpret things people say and think people are arguing against you.

How old are your children? How many do you have? Boys or girls? You are a mom, right? Your best bet to protect them is your own vigilance.

But is there any reason to believe similar actions are being perpetrated against childhood athletes in TT in your country or throughout the world?

 

[Baal]

I for one would not be surprised if someone at Michigan State serves time in jail given what happened at Penn State. The more that comes out it seems like the culpability of people there was pretty egregious.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

I for one would not be surprised if someone at Michigan State serves time in jail given what happened at Penn State. The more that comes out it seems like the culpability of people there was pretty egregious.

I certainly hope you are right. But I will remain skeptical until I see it. Certainly the coaches seeming to threaten the athletes not to make claims is pretty outrageous.


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[WorkerBee]

The Nassar case is expanding by the day. Not only has one of the dads attacked the doctor in court, and the judge says she will not prosecute a case against him, but a major case has started against all the organizations that did not respond to the original and subsequent reports, including the US Gymnastics and the Olympic Committee. This gets very interesting because the person on the 8-member Olympic Committee responsible for overseeing the billions spent on advertising and the huge campaigns around the gold medals from the athlete point of view, for training and media and academic programs, etc, the athlete representative, is Whitney Ping, Bay Area table tennis olympian, currently employed by Bain Capiial of Boston. Whitney has been in office for years now and one of the major issues is what did the USOC know and when, and what did they do about it? It's going to be interesting when someone points out that the USATT just started its Safesport program this year and has only completed half of the first phase this year.