Advice for returning awkward serves

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A mate I play with often does the same serve that is very awkward for me to return. From the southpaw corner, he attempts to do a underspin, fast, short serve to my forehand near the net. (actually I think he serves inside the table to get the angle, but that's another story).

Anyway, this serve comes quite fast. Also, he is trying to make underspin, but his brushing is poor so the serve is more like a dead ball. When I push the ball, it often pops up high or goes long. So I have a lot of trouble returning this serve. Occasionally the serve drifts long, and I am able to loop the serve. I also tried flicking this serve, but it feels like a low percentage shot. Sometimes I miss the flick, sometimes I make the flick but I am out of position for the next shot and I don't feel any advantage to this method.

What's the best way to return this serve?
 
says Spin and more spin.
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Hard to really say much without seeing it. But, this is what I was talking about about experimenting. Don't worry if you get it on for a while and try different things.

You can roll on the inside of the ball and direct it forward with insideout sidespin (fade spin) (fade spin will curve towards the lefty's FH side).

You could flip dead float balls which are really awkward to return. You can touch it short, barely touching so it just barely goes over the net and drops without trying to impart spin (this is one of the things you can do when you do what Der_Echte described about how to approach the ball).

Really, there are a lot of ways you could mess around with trying to return the serve. Play around.

NextLevel is very fond of saying how one of the things that holds adult learners back is the idea that it is important to get the ball on the table. If you play around with feeling how you touch the ball and trying a few different ways of touching those serves without caring if you get the ball on the table, when you feel out the ball from that serve properly, you will end up knowing several ways to return that serve that will be effective.

But if you are trying to get the ball on the table without really knowing how the ball feels and what will happen when you touch the ball, then the ball will likely not do what you are expecting it to do.

Let yourself fail a few times but try and feel what is really on the ball and it may help you feel what to do with that serve.
 
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Hard to really say much without seeing it. But, this is what I was talking about about experimenting. Don't worry if you get it on for a while and try different things.

You can roll on the inside of the ball and direct it forward with insideout sidespin (fade spin) (fade spin will curve towards the lefty's FH side).

You could flip dead float balls which are really awkward to return. You can touch it short, barely touching so it just barely goes over the net and drops without trying to impart spin (this is one of the things you can do when you do what Der_Echte described about how to approach the ball).

Really, there are a lot of ways you could mess around with trying to return the serve. Play around.

NextLevel is very fond of saying how one of the things that holds adult learners back is the idea that it is important to get the ball on the table. If you play around with feeling how you touch the ball and trying a few different ways of touching those serves without caring if you get the ball on the table, when you feel out the ball from that serve properly, you will end up knowing several ways to return that serve that will be effective.

But if you are trying to get the ball on the table without really knowing how the ball feels and what will happen when you touch the ball, then the ball will likely not do what you are expecting it to do.

Let yourself fail a few times but try and feel what is really on the ball and it may help you feel what to do with that serve.

Ok I guess I'll try to flick to the lefty FH side, even if I miss a few returns in a row. The trouble is, the serve has slightly different spin each time based on how he happens to strike the serve. I think he is trying to do heavy spin each time, but it doesn't come out right. It's usually completely dead ball or slight underspin.

I'll also try a few of those vertical short pushes. But I think its quite hard to push it short, because the serve itself has some speed on it. It's not a slow serve, but it has some speed that cause the ball to rebound off my racket.

 
says Table tennis clown
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Ok I guess I'll try to flick to the lefty FH side, even if I miss a few returns in a row. The trouble is, the serve has slightly different spin each time based on how he happens to strike the serve. I think he is trying to do heavy spin each time, but it doesn't come out right. It's usually completely dead ball or slight underspin.

I'll also try a few of those vertical short pushes. But I think its quite hard to push it short, because the serve itself has some speed on it. It's not a slow serve, but it has some speed that cause the ball to rebound off my racket.

sounds like you are describing ME 😁
No, really, I am the lefty with the nasty serves. Of course it is imperative to vary the serves.
I only play the same serve twice if I see that the opponent has absolutely no idea about the spin I give him.

Trying always to treat an incoming ball from a serve the same way is a futile exercise.
One has to observe with eagle eyes and highest concentration and then try to decipher what the serves is giving us and then react.
Easier said then done of course especially if like myself one is half blind and brain-damaged with reduced cognitive capabilities AND attention deficit problems. 😂

 
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The trouble is, the serve has slightly different spin each time based on how he happens to strike the serve. I think he is trying to do heavy spin each time, but it doesn't come out right. It's usually completely dead ball or slight underspin.

Either he is clueless on the spin, or you are reading wrong.

It is not uncommon to use an underspin action to generate a no spin ball. From what I read, the no spin ball is the problem for you.
You can drop the ball back or attack it, but if you read wrong and assume the next is no spin, mean while it is underspin, then your margin of error will increase.

So the real problem is for you to identify correctly on the spin.

 
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Either he is clueless on the spin, or you are reading wrong.

It is not uncommon to use an underspin action to generate a no spin ball. From what I read, the no spin ball is the problem for you.
You can drop the ball back or attack it, but if you read wrong and assume the next is no spin, mean while it is underspin, then your margin of error will increase.

So the real problem is for you to identify correctly on the spin.

I think we talked about it once. He said he is trying to do hard underspin. But having received his serve many times, it is always dead ball or near dead ball. I think he just doesnt know how to brush the ball. So my instinct keeps telling me the ball is underspin, but when I touch it i know immediately that I got it wrong. My push goes too high.

Not just his serve, but even his push is nearly a dead ball. My opening loops often go long against him. He just doesnt produce a lot of backspin that I expect there to be.

 
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One of the principle of deceptive serve is hitting ball at different timing or different places of racket, so no matter he intended to or not, the serve still follow the principle.

But for a player who can't solid grip the ball consistently when serve, I think his serve could only be normal backspin, weak backspin or very weak backspin. You should be able to attack it, you only need to practice you FH flick more.
 
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I suggest this tutorial. And you can check their other videos as well, they have many tutorials (different methods) to return no spin (knuckle) serve. The translation is not perfect but their instructions are detailed, no-nonsense and very easy to understand. My fav table tennis channel.
 
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One of the principle of deceptive serve is hitting ball at different timing or different places of racket, so no matter he intended to or not, the serve still follow the principle.

But for a player who can't solid grip the ball consistently when serve, I think his serve could only be normal backspin, weak backspin or very weak backspin. You should be able to attack it, you only need to practice you FH flick more.
I second this. I think even better if you added a bh flick to it too.

Personally when I get no spin I usually chop it down along the back of the ball (not under it)

You can do something like a xuxin style banana flick to put some sidespin on the ball too.

 
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I second this. I think even better if you added a bh flick to it too.

Personally when I get no spin I usually chop it down along the back of the ball (not under it)

You can do something like a xuxin style banana flick to put some sidespin on the ball too.

I'm curious about why we don't see this xuxin style flick more often used by shakehand players. I mean the style as seen in this video

not just a normal penhold banana flick. To me it seems different from a normal SH forehand flick, since it's more side spinny and less hitty, and it's also not a strawberry flick since it used the forehand side of the bat. I've played around trying it against underspin and it kind of works to lift it, with the motion feeling a little similar to a reverse pendulum serve almost. Do we not see it as much just because SH players have less wrist freedom? Or would it just count as a standard forehand flick with more side

 
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I'm curious about why we don't see this xuxin style flick more often used by shakehand players. I mean the style as seen in this video

not just a normal penhold banana flick. To me it seems different from a normal SH forehand flick, since it's more side spinny and less hitty, and it's also not a strawberry flick since it used the forehand side of the bat. I've played around trying it against underspin and it kind of works to lift it, with the motion feeling a little similar to a reverse pendulum serve almost. Do we not see it as much just because SH players have less wrist freedom? Or would it just count as a standard forehand flick with more side

The first bunch of players that comes to mind who use this is in the Japanese womens team.
They use it a lot and for a good few years now

 
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If you want to play short on short nospinballs you need to brush on the side of the ball. You can go under backspin balls and play short but if it is nospinball it will go high. I think it probably is easier to push wth open racket angle/gentle flip. Good luck.
 
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Serves are always my weakest point i keep losing and i don't have any advantage good serves myself, but what i found out is that when i play with long pimples or anti spin/power then i have more percent of points even if i lose, i mostly lose to top high level players then, also i can almost lower the damage of receiving by using so slow or soft rubbers also, sometimes i just flick FH or BH and only by luck i get few of them, so it is all depends on the opponent if he is trained well level one or just using one type of serves that making him in advantage because others can't read or react to it well.
 
says Table tennis clown
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Serves are always my weakest point i keep losing and i don't have any advantage good serves myself, but what i found out is that when i play with long pimples or anti spin/power then i have more percent of points even if i lose, i mostly lose to top high level players then, also i can almost lower the damage of receiving by using so slow or soft rubbers also, sometimes i just flick FH or BH and only by luck i get few of them, so it is all depends on the opponent if he is trained well level one or just using one type of serves that making him in advantage because others can't read or react to it well.

i am with you on this and agree.
But it is perfectly normal to loose against better players no matter what kind of tricks they have up their sleeves.

 
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i am with you on this and agree.
But it is perfectly normal to loose against better players no matter what kind of tricks they have up their sleeves.

I just play for fun at this stage and i never competed in tours, so i really just play with anyone willing to play, because some top players are trying to player with weaker opponents and i also try to avoid those because they aren't deserve to play against with this attitude, and to play with similar players of my level is making things more fun and challenging as he/she is trying to overpower me and i try to outperform them to stay ahead, and most of the time their weapon is the serve alone, others have no great serve but they have great return, so i like variation, but those who has better serves and whatever are just simply trained only, if i trained i will swap them to floor too.

Last Friday i played against one coach, no match of course, but i liked that he is just enjoying to play and practice with all and i can see why he is a coach, he never care about the result as me too, and i can see what i need to improve, but he is trained since he was a kid and he still playing at his age now, while i never have any training in my life when i was a kid and barely had few training that is not sufficient but helped me to battle some i couldn't or to keep me in shape for a while, but i must find a coach to teach me about how to serve and return serves, then i can have more advantages later.

 
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