Rubber throw angle topic again.

[Tony's Table Tennis]

If one drops a ball onto a blade that has been carefully "leveled",
the ball will jump back up without any deflection.

See what I mean ???
See what it is that maked the throw-angle ????

not if you have an egg ball

 

[lodro]

not if you have an egg ball

...........or indeed egg balls 😁

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

...........or indeed egg balls 😁

i'm sorry to hear that

 

[brokenball]

I'm no video editing expert, but if I have the skills. I would like to do such a video to show that the manufactures are not really spreading fairy tales lies (I think BB mentioned something like this once).

The TT manufacturers perpetuate the myths you guy spread because it benefits them.

[/quote]
I do think i'm a fair person.
Maybe BB needs to come and give his video, on how these brands are indeed spreading fairy tales lies.
[/quote]
It doesn't take a video. They can't answer my questions I asked above.
No one has in over 13 years.

I'm sure people really love to learn, but by saying, because you don't have the numbers, you are dumb, is really dumb.

I didn't call anybody dumb but if you feel dumb that is your problem, not mine.
Now I will turn this around. Do you feel smarter using terms you really can't define or measure?
Well, do you?
Few want to learn. If so, this would be accomplished years ago starting on mytt in 2009. Oh well. Why the resistance? Instead, people always want to de-rail my topics.

What does a speed of 13.5 mean?
What are the units?
How do you use it in a formula.
The COR can be used in a formula. This is the answer. Why not define high throw as a high tangential to normal COR. Leave the angle part off because no one is measuring angles and the angle of the trajectory is dependent of the stroke as well as the rubber and blade. Can you accept that definition? I can.

The TT manufacturers could print COR numbers like in the Tieffenbacher document, but their goal is not to inform you, their goal is to mislead you, so you buy more product.
Note the second paragraph of the Tieffenbacher document. It mentions that there are myths that make having conversations about what is really happening difficult. This has been the case for years.

Look at this thread. Notice there are a lot of people that don't agree or have misconceptions. The TT forums have not been very helpful at squashing myths. Rather, they have been a place to spread them.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

They can't answer my questions I asked above.
No one has in over 13 years.

Which manufacture did you contact?
Show me.

 

[lodro]

I agree with BB that the numbers given by manufacturers are useless for the novice buyers. I am talking especially about potential buyers that likely started buying a ready made Racket in a sport shop and now want to assemble their racket buying a blade and rubbers. They end up going in circles having to buy 5 -6 blades and dozens of rubbers.
That's good business for the manufacturers but a real bitch for the player.

More advanced players, especially if they stick to one brand, might get to know what the numbers are supposed to mean and this makes it easier for them
Generally speaking though it is a jungle out there.

 

[brokenball]

Which manufacture did you contact?
Show me.

The TT manufacturers monitor the TT forums. That is how they know where to advertise and what garbage they must say to con people into buying their stuff. Words like power, tension and control seem to sucker people. I am sure they have seen what I have written. I could probably go to the paddle palace and ask them. The Paddle Palace is about 20 miles away. I haven't been to their new building. I bought my first paddle during a visit to the previous site back in 2009.

Since the "hard headed engineer" in me is, and always and will always be present. I asked the people at the paddle Palace about their ratings in the catalogs. They admitted the ratings were opinions for a few different players. There was no real machine measurements. I saw once where they had to rescale all their ratings because the newer rubbers seemed to be so much faster and a rating of 101 wouldn't look good.

Don't you ever question anything the TT manufacturers say? How is it that 3 different thicknesses of T05 have the same rating?
Thicker rubbers that are made of the same material as thinner rubbers will appear softer. They will also be slower as sponge absorbs energy, it doesn't generate energy. Yet in the Paddle Palace catalogs, a rubber will have the same rating for 3 different thicknesses.

 

[brokenball]

I agree with BB that the numbers given by manufacturers are useless for the novice buyers.

The numbers are misleading

I am talking especially about potential buyers that likely started buying a ready made Racket in a sport shop and now want to assemble their racket buying a blade and rubbers. They end up going in circles having to buy 5 -6 blades and dozens of rubbers.
That's good business for the manufacturers but a real bitch for the player.

It isn't so bad for the retailers either. I know I have spent a lot of money at the Paddle Palace. The Japanese Yen has fallen a lot but not the prices of Japanese TT rubbers. Even the Chinese RMB has dropped from 6 to 1 to 7 to 1 but the Chinese rubbers are costing more. That is price fixing.

More advanced players, especially if they stick to one brand, might get to know what the numbers are supposed to mean and this makes it easier for them

The sponsored ones usually stick to the brand that sponsors them and I doubt they pay attention to the ratings. They just try whatever rubber or paddle that comes out next and if they like it they play with it.

I serious doubt there are any pro TT players with PhDs in physics and the resources to test the rubbers by machine.

Generally speaking though it is a jungle out there.

Agreed. There is no truth in advertising.

 

[jk1980]

The TT manufacturers monitor the TT forums. That is how they know where to advertise and what garbage they must say to con people into buying their stuff.

Oh i see, so the manufacturers did advertise their products differently before the internet and the creation of forums or bulletin boards ? Wow, your logic is flawed.

Words like power, tension and control seem to sucker people. I am sure they have seen what I have written.

Or they simply see you as a nut job that tries to derail every topic with his own agenda in a futile attempt to gain the attention and recognition of others that he (probably rightfully) lacks in real life. Dude, you are annoying with your constant unsolicited spamming of threads.
I am sure people that know this forum long enough already lack the motivation to post in threads that you derailed, because they know the outcome. You will simply sound like a broken record with your "define this and answer that".

Fact is:
nobody owes you an answer!
your lack of any sign of a decent upbringing and manners would prevent reasonable adults to take you serious and to disregard your constant complaining about people "mis"-wording topics shows not only a lack of empathy, but also a lack of intelligence. An intelligent and adult person would know that there are different ways to describe things and the explicit terms used are not that important as long as people do understand each other.

I could probably go to the paddle palace and ask them. The Paddle Palace is about 20 miles away. I haven't been to their new building. I bought my first paddle during a visit to the previous site back in 2009.

Yeah, but that would actually involve you spending actual energy on anything other than trying to be a keyboard warrior, so we all know that this is not going to happen.

Since the "hard headed engineer" in me is, and always and will always be present. I asked the people at the paddle Palace about their ratings in the catalogs. They admitted the ratings were opinions for a few different players. There was no real machine measurements. I saw once where they had to rescale all their ratings because the newer rubbers seemed to be so much faster and a rating of 101 wouldn't look good.

And you really think that asking those primarily sales focussed guys will result in factual data regarding the decision process of creating and shifting the companies ratings ? Wow, you never must have worked for a company with more than 10 people i guess.


Why don't you create another thread with your own topic ? I know why.
You tried and it resulted in people dismissing you and your "opinion" because you cant come up with facts and simply try to make others do the work for you.
Instead of asking others to disprove your "theory" why don't you come up with data that support your theory ? Oh i forgot. That would be too much energy and we can not expect that to be done by somebody that is busy being a rude internet keyboard warrior 24/7.

Throw angles are real and i think everybody has had the experience that with the technique one has learned the angle of the racket on impact has to be adjusted when switching between rubbers and blades.

Save your energy for different forum battles, BrokenBall. You are a brokenrecord that i just put on the ignore list (hey, you are the first and only entry there), because i really simply don't care about people that are neither smart nor able to show manners. I will not respond to you, even though we all know that the pathology of somebody with a narcissistic personality disorder will force you to respond to my post anyways, because you are so worried about what other people on the internet think about you and you can't help yourself but react.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The TT manufacturers monitor the TT forums. That is how they know where to advertise and what garbage they must say to con people into buying their stuff. Words like power, tension and control seem to sucker people. I am sure they have seen what I have written. I could probably go to the paddle palace and ask them. The Paddle Palace is about 20 miles away. I haven't been to their new building. I bought my first paddle during a visit to the previous site back in 2009.

Since the "hard headed engineer" in me is, and always and will always be present. I asked the people at the paddle Palace about their ratings in the catalogs. They admitted the ratings were opinions for a few different players. There was no real machine measurements. I saw once where they had to rescale all their ratings because the newer rubbers seemed to be so much faster and a rating of 101 wouldn't look good.

Don't you ever question anything the TT manufacturers say? How is it that 3 different thicknesses of T05 have the same rating?
Thicker rubbers that are made of the same material as thinner rubbers will appear softer. They will also be slower as sponge absorbs energy, it doesn't generate energy. Yet in the Paddle Palace catalogs, a rubber will have the same rating for 3 different thicknesses.

Is my understanding on what you said is correct?

So you didn't contact the manufacturers and ask your questions to them in person.
But rather, you put it on the forum/s and you feel the manufactures should come and answer your questions in the forum?

Paddle Palace is not a manufacture though.
They might be able to forward your question on to them on your behalf, if they want to.

Obviously, asking right questions to the right people, would give you a better chance of a correct answer (or any answer at all)

 

[brokenball]

Is my understanding on what you said is correct?

So you didn't contact the manufacturers and ask your questions to them in person.

That is silly.
I am not going to China, Japan and Europe to ask questions I know they can't answer. They can come to this forum.
They won't. They haven't yet. I am sure Dan and USDC would like it for all the traffic in would bring to this site. Yet again, the manufacturers may never advertise on this site again.

But rather, you put it on the forum/s and you feel the manufactures should come and answer your questions in the forum?

If they thought they could refute my claims they would come to this TT forum.

Paddle Palace is not a manufacture though.
They might be able to forward your question on to them on your behalf, if they want to.

They are a retailer and now a relatively local club to play TT at.

Obviously, asking right questions to the right people, would give you a better chance of a correct answer (or any answer at all)

Do you really think they would attempt to answer my questions?
You know their numbers are bogus.
They know their numbers are bogus.
The numbers in the Tieffenbacher pdf were real in 1999.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

That is silly.
I am not going to China, Japan and Europe to ask questions I know they can't answer. They can come to this forum.
They won't. They haven't yet. I am sure Dan and USDC would like it for all the traffic in would bring to this site. Yet again, the manufacturers may never advertise on this site again.


If they thought they could refute my claims they would come to this TT forum.


They are a retailer and now a relatively local club to play TT at.


Do you really think they would attempt to answer my questions?
You know their numbers are bogus.
They know their numbers are bogus.
The numbers in the Tieffenbacher pdf were real in 1999.

You are the one that said that they can't answer the question you asked for 13 years.
I'm not sure what happened in 13 years, but from these few replies the past 2 days, you are not asking manufactures directly.

In this day and age, you could easily email, or even reach them on many social media platforms.
But if you feel, you need to go to China, or Japan, or what not, to me, that just sounds like a lame excuse.
You are using this forum alright, you should know how to use email and social media too.

And honestly speaking, other than Sanwei recently, who has time to even come to these forums? (all due respect to mods, even many mods hardly have time too)
few others tt vendors came before, and hardly stayed.
Those that visit, do it as a courtesy. Do you know how many TT forums are on this planet?
Do you think they come to forums before, because of you? Do you know Matt himself works for a TT vendor, and he hardly has times to even be on TTD any more?

Anyways, since Sanwei is here, did you go ask her any questions? This is the closest you can get with a TT vendor on TTD today.

I'm not sure what makes you feel you are so special, that others need to come look for your questions and give you answers. Normally people go out and seek answers. Back in ancient China, people travel years to find a master to get the answer, more than your 13 years too.

But since you refuse to even get one reply (Which I asked you to show me), you then make the above excuse....
Now, let me step into your shoes and help you. Should you do get 1 reply that can't back their own numbers, wouldn't that help you with your claims then?

13 years. WOW. Am I the first to tell you to go actually ask them?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

The numbers are misleading

It isn't so bad for the retailers either. I know I have spent a lot of money at the Paddle Palace. The Japanese Yen has fallen a lot but not the prices of Japanese TT rubbers. Even the Chinese RMB has dropped from 6 to 1 to 7 to 1 but the Chinese rubbers are costing more. That is price fixing.

Giving you the benefit of doubt.

logistics cost has gone up how much?
material costs?
labor costs?

What exactly in your world has drop in price since pre covid levels?

I know you are an engineers, I am in international trade outside my TT life
Chinese labors have doubled its income since 5 to 10 years ago.
economy is no longer lala land. Many are suffering.
Russian war has also affected rubber and blade production.
Material shortages in China also doesn't help too (yes, China locked down ALOT of times for WEEKS over the past 3 years)

Price fixing? Well, if they still open today, I would say they did a hell of a job to not file for liquidation.
One of them told me, they only sold 20% blades in 2020, compared to 2019.

And Sadly, many of my vendors (including the ones i'm not doing now) have been sending me pricelist increase basically every 6 months for 3 years now. Sad... but that is the world we in now.
Retailers could have stock on old stock at lower costs. New stock will cost more. Do they increase, or take the knock (logistic, replacement cost increase etc).
Trust me, retailers is bad at the moment. Support them to help them.

Not everything is a lie out there. Its tough.

 

[Gozo Aruna]

You are trying to use the idea of throw angle to figure out what rubbers to use. But you are misunderstanding the principles.

If higher arc lets you land the ball safer and lower arc means you need to be much more precise, lower throw angle is not really what you want if you are missing more. What you want is a rubber that is easier for you to control regardless of throw angle. Some of what you also want is more precision in how you respond to incoming spin.

Maybe a rubber like Xiom Vega Europe or Vega Pro would be something to try out. It is pretty easy to use and control. It is a few steps down from Tenergy. But if you are having the ball fly all over the place, something that is more user friendly, does not react to incoming spin as much, and allows you to develop your strokes better.

In other words, it is not the equipment that is the issue. But that you started using equipment that was a little to advanced for the level of your technique. Back off. Use something that is one of those middle ground offensive rubbers that is easy to control.

BTW: the fact that you are using a 10mm+ One Ply Hinoki blade (really effing heavy and really effing fast and darn hard to control) with some of the hardest rubbers to control out there.....you may also think of stepping back on the blade to a thin, flexible 5 ply, all wood, Off- blade like a Nexy Spear or a Xiom Offensive S.

Hi Carl,

Your advise on using a slower rubber is technically sound. I, too have used Vega Europe and Donic Bluefire M2 in the past and they were OK'ish when playing with lower skill player or just starting out or against players who can't counter-loop or counter-drive. These rubbers are great for one who is just learning to place the ball back safely onto the table. But against players who can counter-attack, I find that the medium offensive rubber such as Vega Europe and M2 to lack ommph and killing blow.

This week I went back to my old rubber, Donic Bluefire M1 and luckily things got better. I am back into my old self now. Tenergy 05 is grippy and spinny, no argument here but it seems slower but very spin-reactive for me compared to Donic M1. However if I were to compared them all to MXP ( which I was playing with before switching to T05), MXP is the fastest of them all in my personal experience and also the one which I liked most.

But thanks for your advise Carl, it may not suit me, but for others who are just starting out in the sport, Carl advise is spot on and can be accepted.

N/B: Now waiting for my MXP to arrive. I got a good bargain during the 02.02.23 sales at Shopee.

 

[brokenball]

Giving you the benefit of doubt.

logistics cost has gone up how much?
material costs?
labor costs?

What exactly in your world has drop in price since pre covid levels?

That is easy. Stocks, home prices and the price of foreign currency.
The US dollar is very strong relative to most currencies. This is making if extremely difficult for foreign countries with dollar denominated debt to pay off their loans.
I think my world is much different than most.

I know you are an engineers, I am in international trade outside my TT life
Chinese labors have doubled its income since 5 to 10 years ago.
economy is no longer lala land. Many are suffering.

Yes, I am aware. My company has sold $2.7M to China last year. That is about $75K to $80K per employee. Find another company that can claim that. I have been to China 8 times. I am still a moderator on a Chinese servo control forum. I think I am the only foreigner that is a moderator in China. My articles get translated to Chinese.
I have given presentations at trade shows in Shanghai.
I am very aware of what is happening in China. I doubt we can sell as much to China this year.
BTW, I played TT at the Yuanshen Sport Center in Pudong, Shanghai China. One of the TT coaches there would send her students to me to play. The little kids I would make look like heros by playing very defensively. I would need to be care not to hit a ball wthat would bounce over their head. Against the older players I would get out my blocking LP since they have nothing like that. The parents of the kids would pick up TT balls so the coaches and kids would not need to waste time picking up balls. One time I saw a mother get extremely mad at her boy because he was a kltutz and didn't want to play TT anymore.

I have been to many trade shows in China but my last was in 2017.

Russian war has also affected rubber and blade production.
Material shortages in China also doesn't help too (yes, China locked down ALOT of times for WEEKS over the past 3 years)

Yes, China does not have access to a lot of wood. Especially the kinds of wood used into make paddles.
I am very aware of the wood products industry around the world. Russia has lots of forests/trees. The aren't the kind of trees that are used to make TT paddles.

Price fixing? Well, if they still open today, I would say they did a hell of a job to not file for liquidation.
One of them told me, they only sold 20% blades in 2020, compared to 2019.

I believe it. The TT clubs around here were shut down. I have my own TT space. One person said it is the best around. but it isn't perfect. I don't have the really nice rubber flooring but my floor is non-skid.

And Sadly, many of my vendors (including the ones i'm not doing now) have been sending me pricelist increase basically every 6 months for 3 years now. Sad... but that is the world we in now.

This is mostly a supply and demand issue. The supply chain is all screwed up.

Retailers could have stock on old stock at lower costs. New stock will cost more. Do they increase, or take the knock (logistic, replacement cost increase etc).

The raw materials cost may go up. but the cost to make a TT top sheet is pennies. The expensive part is making the mold.

Trust me, retailers is bad at the moment. Support them to help them.

Not everything is a lie out there. Its tough.

I seriously doubt the Paddle Palace is in trouble.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Hi Carl,

I find that the medium offensive rubber such as Vega Europe and M2 to lack ommph and killing blow.

It doesn't really matter to me what you use. But if you need the equipment to create the pace, your technique still needs some work. Someone with really solid technique would get serious oooommmphhhh out of a Xiom Offensive S with Vega Pro or Vega Europe on it.

But, use what you want. My information was that, if the ball is flying all over the place as a result of the rubber, you need to back off. From a skill level standpoint MXP is backing off from Tenergy. You do need higher level technique to handle T05 than MXP.

But you are improving fast enough. So, use what you want.

How is playing vs that LP playing going? Are you starting to sort out how to play him? How not to make simple mistakes and give away free points?

 

[Gozo Aruna]

It doesn't really matter to me what you use. But if you need the equipment to create the pace, your technique still needs some work. Someone with really solid technique would get serious oooommmphhhh out of a Xiom Offensive S with Vega Pro or Vega Europe on it.

But, use what you want. My information was that, if the ball is flying all over the place as a result of the rubber, you need to back off. From a skill level standpoint MXP is backing off from Tenergy. You do need higher level technique to handle T05 than MXP.

But you are improving fast enough. So, use what you want.

How is playing vs that LP playing going? Are you starting to sort out how to play him? How not to make simple mistakes and give away free points?

1. Playing with my club-mates, from my experience, using the likes of M2 / Vega Europe get countered more often than say M1 / MXP.

2. No argument there, T05 is definitely a wild stallion for me. She is hard to tame. My skill level is not up to par for her. I had used MXP ( for 6 mths or more ) prior to this switch and I was definitely much more in control with MXP. NB: Before MXP I used to use Donic M1.

3. What a coincidence! I just played with the LP guy yesterday evening. We played 5 sets and I lost all the sets, but my scoreline improved a lot. No more under-5's anymore. In a couple of sets, I pushed him all the way to deuces. His comment after the game to me was:
i) My BH was very fierce, like those of Schlager ( his comment, not mine )
ii) The LP guy further said that if he was using both side inverted, he has possibility to lose to me. It was the LP that won the game.
iii) I am satisfied with my overall match experience yesterday after changing back to my old set-up.

P/S: I had to google Schlager coz I am clueless about him.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I have given presentations at trade shows in Shanghai.
I am very aware of what is happening in China. I doubt we can sell as much to China this year.
BTW, I played TT at the Yuanshen Sport Center in Pudong, Shanghai China.
I have been to many trade shows in China but my last was in 2017.

Thought you don't want to travel to China, but did you know that DHS is in Shanghai?
You should of visited them and get an answer once and for all and this 13 year (and on going) battles of yours to "teach" every table tennis player alive, would have been less stressful.

I am all in for people to challenge TT vendors, if the result will make things better for all (yes, I told a few that they have lousy stuff, or too expensive etc).
But challenge them, or send them an invitation and challenge them here. Either way, it needs to be a 2 way dialogue. Not a 1 way.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Thought you don't want to travel to China, but did you know that DHS is in Shanghai?
You should of visited them and get an answer once and for all and this 13 year (and on going) battles of yours to "teach" every table tennis player alive, would have been less stressful.

I am all in for people to challenge TT vendors, if the result will make things better for all (yes, I told a few that they have lousy stuff, or too expensive etc).
But challenge them, or send them an invitation and challenge them here. Either way, it needs to be a 2 way dialogue. Not a 1 way.

Can I be honest, I know a lot of people don't like and don't have patience for BrokenBall. I get why. But none of you who try to attack him, from my perspective, look good doing it either.

Just ignore the guy if he rubs you the wrong way. He is on his last chance on the forum. The last time he got banned it was for 3 months. The next time it will be permanent. I don't know that he can grow up, so, likely, he won't be on the forum much longer as BrokenBall. But you guys harassing him does not look good in my book either. You are making yourselves look immature and vindictive. There is no reason to pay attention to him or react to the argumentative stuff he says. You guys acting childish in response to him acting that way makes no sense at all.

So, do me a favor, just put him on your ignore list and you won't even have to look at his posts.

 

[brokenball]

Can I be honest, I know a lot of people don't like and don't have patience for BrokenBall. I get why. But none of you who try to attack him, from my perspective, look good doing it either.

Patience? You mean tolerance. I know I take people out of their "safe spaces" and challenge them with real physics.
People really hate it when I tell them that their "religion" is false.

Just ignore the guy if he rubs you the wrong way.

Yes, but you will remain clueless.

He is on his last chance on the forum. The last time he got banned it was for 3 months.

Yes for acting badly. No examples just an opinion.
Also I said that Michael Zhang know nothing about dwell time. I can assure you that most here don't.

The next time it will be permanent. I don't know that he can grow up, so, likely, he won't be on the forum much longer as BrokenBall.

It isn't a matter of me growing up. It is whether or not you still want to be talking about throw angle 10 years from now.

But you guys harassing him does not look good in my book either.

Yes, whenever i have tried to explain dwell time there topic gets de-railed. It is frustrating. So if you want real answers. I will require a sticky post that does scroll off the front page that no one can post on.
If you object. Then do it in the normal forum and I will answer as nicely as question deserves.

You are making yourselves look immature and vindictive. There is no reason to pay attention to him or react to the argumentative stuff he says.

Especially when you are wrong.

You guys acting childish in response to him acting that way makes no sense at all.

So when to these guys get threaten with being banned.

So, do me a favor, just put him on your ignore list and you won't even have to look at his posts.

That is a good idea.
It would be also good if the person that started the thread could ban or ignore certain people.

Yogi is right. I am a "hard headed engineer". I prefer no non-sense. I even have used no non sense engineer to describe myself on engineering forums.

I am not picking on you guys. It is just that so many of you just seem to step in it.
My favorite targets are other engineers and whole engineering societies or forums.

Here is where I challenge the author of a fuzzy logic presentation. It also doesn't reflect well on the engineering society that approved the document and presentation either.

I show no mercy to other engineers. I don't particularly like engineering managers either. I don't expect anybody here to understand the presentation or my video. Just read the comments.
The question you may have is why. The answer is that their ignorance has often cost me money.

Now I have made many presentations at trade shows. Even one in China. I have written articles for NASA-TechBriefs and many other magazines/societies. When I write something, it better be right or I will get lots of challenging questions.

So, what it all boils down to is whether this forum is a safe-space where you must go along to get along or is it a forum were truth and facts matter. It seems there are a lot of people that get a lot of butt-hurt when their religion is challenged.