Tacky rubbers recommendations

[NextLevel]

So now you’re trying to mix up hit vs. brush? Do I need to reiterate that I’m talking about a pure backspin serve? That means it’s a slow, close to the net serve, and the ball jumps right back towards the serving player after the second bounce.

I am not alone (I suspect merlin, zeio and blahness would agree) and have pointed out that even on a pure backspin serve, to get more rotation, you hit upwards on the front of the ball, and to do that and get the ball to release from your rubber, you need more effort do do so with a tacky rubber. You can do it much more easily with a non-tacky rubber, the difference is that the more energy you impart with a non-tacky rubber, the serve is more likely to go long. It is not about tack being more spinny per se, but about tack allowing you to swing harder into the ball and get a ball with a different effect compared to when you don't have tack.

 

[DukeGaGa]

I am not alone (I suspect merlin, zeio and blahness would agree) and have pointed out that even on a pure backspin serve, to get more rotation, you hit upwards on the front of the ball, and to do that and get the ball to release from your rubber, you need more effort do do so with a tacky rubber. You can do it much more easily with a non-tacky rubber, the difference is that the more energy you impart with a non-tacky rubber, the serve is more likely to go long. It is not about tack being more spinny per se, but about tack allowing you to swing harder into the ball and get a ball with a different effect compared to when you don't have tack.

If that is what you think I am trying to do, sure. I am trying to make the point that on backspin serves, my contact with tacky rubbers is much thicker than it is with non-tacky rubbers. The technique is much more active.

Sure, if that what you think you’re saying. But generally in TT when people say “hit” it means the paddle surface is perpendicular to the out going ball trajectory, and brush is when it’s parallel. Every stroke is a mix of the two, just a matter of which is more. Though I’ve never seen people say “strong hit” when they actually mean “thick brush”.

Also, it seems we have very different definitions for “easy”. For me, when considering a lower level player, “easy” means they can mess up their stroke but still get a relatively good result, or in other words “ease of control”. Your “easy” however means “using a minimum amount of power”, but how can a lower level player control their power that precisely? So back to the original point, I think ease of control is more beneficial to lower level players.

And I must say this again, in the very first comment about this whole matter, I said “even placebo can be beneficial in certain situations”. The confidence a player gains is way more important than anything, with confidence they’ll more likely to actively engage in the rally, and use their skill set more naturally, and overtime they become better at it because they have experience in using what they’ve learnt from practice in a real match. So you don’t even need to be able to “hit hard” or “brush thick” or whatever with tacky rubber, it can still benefit a player.

 

[merlin el mago]

The key point is that you impart/get more spin: back or top using hard rubbers with proper technique no matter the stroke you do: serve topspin, sidespin or backspin, etc.

 

[NextLevel]

Sure, if that what you think you’re saying. But generally in TT when people say “hit” it means the paddle surface is perpendicular to the out going ball trajectory, and brush is when it’s parallel. Every stroke is a mix of the two, just a matter of which is more. Though I’ve never seen people say “strong hit” when they actually mean “thick brush”.

Also, it seems we have very different definitions for “easy”. For me, when considering a lower level player, “easy” means they can mess up their stroke but still get a relatively good result, or in other words “ease of control”. Your “easy” however means “using a minimum amount of power”, but how can a lower level player control their power that precisely? So back to the original point, I think ease of control is more beneficial to lower level players.

I can't remember anyone having used the phrase "strong hit" before this thread. I usually try to figure out what someone is trying to say, rather than strictly imposing what I think words mean into what they mean. It doesn't make me right, it is just my approach. And when someone says "strong hit", it is probably a translation from another language as most English speakers would not use the phrase quite the same way. In the context of tacky rubbers, I suspect with some empathy that he is talking about the physical effort or quality of contact involved to get a certain kind of quality ball.

I don't think anything is easy for a lower level player in general, getting more spin etc. relative to physical effort is how I have generally thought of ease. But if you mean forgiveness or something else, I am not sure I agree, but since you have at least made it clear that your definition of ease is different from mine and likely a few others, I can see where you are coming from.

 

[DukeGaGa]

I can't remember anyone having used the phrase "strong hit" before this thread. I usually try to figure out what someone is trying to say, rather than strictly imposing what I think words mean into what they mean. It doesn't make me right, it is just my approach. And when someone says "strong hit", it is probably a translation from another language as most English speakers would not use the phrase quite the same way. In the context of tacky rubbers, I suspect with some empathy that he is talking about the physical effort or quality of contact involved to get a certain kind of quality ball.

I don't think anything is easy for a lower level player in general, getting more spin etc. relative to physical effort is how I have generally thought of ease. But if you mean forgiveness or something else, I am not sure I agree, but since you have at least made it clear that your definition of ease is different from mine and likely a few others, I can see where you are coming from.

I agree nothing is easy for lower level players, but with certain equipment it can be easier for them. And yes, ease of control, or forgiving, what else could it be when talking about lower level players? When you talk to someone that is clearly a beginner, and says “you might want to try this, it should be easier for you to use”, do you mean “you won’t mess up as much if you use this instead”, or do you mean “you’ll get more speed and spin out of this but you’ll need to improve your skill first”?

And like I said, the original question was whether tacky rubber can be beneficial to players other than “hefty ahletes” (Igor’s words), and the answer is yes.

 

[NextLevel]

I agree nothing is easy for lower level players, but with certain equipment it can be easier for them.

And like I said, the original question was whether tacky rubber can be beneficial to players other than “hefty ahletes” (Igor’s words), and the answer is yes.

I can agree with the conclusion even if I disagree with the logic that got you there - yes tacky rubbers can be useful for many styles, just as non-tacky rubbers are. Whether it is because tacky rubbers generate more spin on a backspin serve or are easier for "lower level players" to use to generate spin on a backspin serve is what is questionable.

 

[DukeGaGa]

I can agree with the conclusion even if I disagree with the logic that got you there - yes tacky rubbers can be useful for many styles, just as non-tacky rubbers are. Whether it is because tacky rubbers generate more spin on a backspin serve or are easier for "lower level players" to use to generate spin on a backspin serve is what is questionable.

Oh see that’s where you’re wrong, I said “friction is a property of the material, and in TT more friction means spin”, where as @merlin el mago said “hard hits must by done in order to get maximum spin”. The wrong keyword here is “must”.

Also, I didn’t say it’s easier for “lower level players” to generate spin in back spin serves using tacky rubbers, I said “tacky rubbers can generate more spin on back spin serves”. There’s a difference. And I said it “can be beneficial to players of all levels”, keyword being “can”, it implies “has the possibility”, and it is not a certainty.

 

[merlin el mago]

My point of view is like Chinese approach, start from the beginning with the right material, what's the right material? linear material, what's the linear material? the once you know for sure you predict 100% how works. If you give to beginners easy catapult fast rubbers, never ever will know how to do spin.

The rubbers, sponges, bats are only material, the more important thing it's proper technique to get the maximum of the material used.

 

[ander999]

Are they actually different from other C-touch ESN rubbers like K3 or Bluegrip C2?

At the end of the day all these rubbers are really similar because they are all made in the same factory where each brand does the same thing with a touch of difference. All I can say is the difference is really in the sponge. The J&H Z52.5 sponge feels like that off of the Omega 7 Series, and the Thibar K3 uses their signature sponge, and similarly Donic uses their sponge on the Bluegrip.

I am still sad these are non-existent in EU.

You can actually find them on Japanese stores but you would have to email them to see if they will deliver overseas. I know there are a few available here: https://www.pingpongonline.com/prod...der=6&page=2&zenid=ne8kc5vjp3u80lah2h5qailt77

Tienda – Anjsports

anjsports.com

 

[NextLevel]

Oh see that’s where you’re wrong, I said “friction is a property of the material, and in TT more friction means spin”, where as @merlin el mago said “hard hits must by done in order to get maximum spin”. The wrong keyword here is “must”.

Also, I didn’t say it’s easier for “lower level players” to generate spin in back spin serves using tacky rubbers, I said “tacky rubbers can generate more spin on back spin serves”. There’s a difference. I said it “can be beneficial to players of all levels”, keyword being “can”, it implies “has the possibility”, and it is not a certainty.

If you had said tacky rubbers can generate more spin on backspin serves, but they require more effort to get that spin, no one would be arguing with you. You seemed to imply that using similar serving motions, it is easier to get more spin on a backspin serve with a tacky rubber, and the point is that the physical effort to get a spinnier backspin serve with tacky rubber is more. Merlin was talking about the effort and physical contacts, you haven't made it clear whether you agree that backspin serves with tacky rubber require more physical effort to get good spin than with non-tacky rubbers.

If you slow spin with tacky rubber, the effort required to get really heavy spin is more than a relaxed stroke with non-tacky rubbers. This is because tack/stickness, while it increases friction, also can also work against ball separation and surface/sponge elasticity in adding rotation to the ball. Tack tends to be better for stopping and controlling heavy amounts of spin than generating it easily. To summarize, tack is not just more friction, tack also means slower ball separation and can hurt elasticity, thereby requiring more physical effort to overcome it and generate spin.

 

[DukeGaGa]

If you had said tacky rubbers can generate more spin on backspin serves, but they require more effort to get that spin, no one would be arguing with you. You seemed to imply that using similar serving motions, it is easier to get more spin on a backspin serve with a tacky rubber, and the point is that the physical effort to get a spinnier backspin serve with tacky rubber is more. Merlin was talking about the effort and physical contacts, you haven't made it clear whether you agree that backspin serves with tacky rubber require more physical effort to get good spin than with non-tacky rubbers.

If you slow spin with tacky rubber, the effort required to get really heavy spin is more than a relaxed stroke with non-tacky rubbers. This is because tack/stickness, while it increases friction, also can also work against ball separation and surface/sponge elasticity in adding rotation to the ball. Tack tends to be better for stopping and controlling heavy amounts of spin than generating it easily. To summarize, tack is not just more friction, tack also means slower ball separation and can hurt elasticity, thereby requiring more physical effort to overcome it and generate spin.

I never implied that, you got that from merlin. I asked the question “Do a normal pure backspin serve, which can generate more spin, tacky rubber or non-tacky rubber?” And merlin answered “of course tacky”, but then said the player needs to hit hard. But hit is not brush, like I said before when someone says hit in TT, no one would assume it’s a brushing motion, hit is a full on impact, and this is also true in normal conversation as well. If you say “I’m hitting a sandbag” you mean you’re punching the sand bag with your fist, not sliding your hand against the sandbag surface.

 

[NextLevel]

I never implied that, you got that from merlin. I asked the question “Do a normal pure backspin serve, which can generate more spin, tacky rubber or non-tacky rubber?” And merlin answered “of course tacky”, but then said the player needs to hit hard. But hit is not brush, like I said before when someone says hit in TT, no one would assume it’s a brushing motion, hit is a full on impact, and this is also true in normal conversation as well. If you say “I’m hitting a sandbag” you mean you’re punching the sand bag with your fist, not sliding your hand against the sandbag surface.

I disagree I got that from Merlin. If I asked you the question, does it require thicker contact and a more effortful swing to serve backspin with a tacky rubber vs a non-tacky rubber, I am not sure I would get a straight answer.

I think that relative to when I serve with non-tacky rubbers, my contact with tacky rubbers is much thicker and my swing is much more physically violent, which is why I agree with merlin. I think you are focused on the semantic differences between the phrases "hit" and "brush" in table tennis, and that is your prerogative. No one knows whether you agree that that it takes more physical effort to serve with spin with tacky rubbers vs non-tacky rubbers, which is what I would consider the substantive issue here. And if you agree, that is the point being made by merlin.

 

[DukeGaGa]

I disagree I got that from Merlin. If I asked you the question, does it require thicker contact and a more effortful swing to serve backspin with a tacky rubber vs a non-tacky rubber, I am not sure I would get a straight answer.

I think that relative to when I serve with non-tacky rubbers, my contact with tacky rubbers is much thicker and my swing is much more physically violent, which is why I agree with merlin. I think you are focused on the semantic differences between the phrases "hit" and "brush" in table tennis, and that is your prerogative. No one knows whether you agree that that it takes more physical effort to serve with spin with tacky rubbers vs non-tacky rubbers, which is what I would consider the substantive issue here. And if you agree, that is the point being made by merlin.

So then you got it from yourself then, but still I didn’t imply it. All I said was tacky rubbers can generate more spin than non-tacky rubbers, and more spin can benefit players of all levels. You then started the whole discussion about easier vs. not easier, if you search the thread you’ll see I didn’t say “easy” once before your started talking about it.

And no, that is not the point made by merlin, merlin said hit, not brush. And as I’ve emphasized multiple times already, there’s a difference. Unless merlin says “when brushing more using a tacky rubber, it can then generate more spin than non-tacky rubbers”, I disagree with him.

 

[Dr Evil]

Hi, I am looking for a tacky rubber that doesn't need boosting and has a medium high throw angle. Is there anything like that in the market?

Hurricane 8-80. Very tacky, doesn't need boosting, cheaper than most hybrids, throw might be higher than you want but worth a try.

 

[merlin el mago]

When I said hit I want to say thick contact, for me thick contact isn't brush, if you brush tacky hard sponge you can't get the maximum spin of the rubber can give so better use other kind of rubbers.

 

[merlin el mago]

Hurricane 8-80. Very tacky, doesn't need boosting, cheaper than most hybrids, throw might be higher than you want but worth a try.

Still didn't tried. But I read good things about it vs european hybrids & as you said more cheap.

 

[DukeGaGa]

When I said hit I want to say thick contact, for me thick contact isn't brush, if you brush tacky hard sponge you can't get the maximum spin of the rubber can give so better use other kind of rubbers.

Sounds like you’re contracting yourself again, your “thick contact” sounds like it is just brushing for everyone else, but you also call it hitting, so what do you call actual hitting? Bump? Slap?

Also let’s make it clear, when I say brush, I mean the force applied on to the ball is mostly tangential. And when I say hit, I mean the force applied on to the ball is mostly through the center of the ball.

 

[merlin el mago]

It's between the two. If you only brush or only hit throug the center of the ball you can't get the maximum spin.

 

[DukeGaGa]

It's between the two. If you only brush or only hit throug the center of the ball you can't get the maximum spin.

No one said only brush, you just made that up. I mentioned in a previous comment that every shot in TT is a mix of brush and hit, it’s just which is more, and to get the most spin on a pure back spin serve, that is short and close to the net, you need to have mostly brush, not mostly hit.

 

[NextLevel]

No one said only brush, you just made that up. I mentioned in a previous comment that every shot in TT is a mix of brush and hit, it’s just which is more, and to get the most spin on a pure back spin serve, that is short and close to the net, you need to have mostly brush, not mostly hit.

Thin brush or thick brush?