Don't blame the rubber if you don't get enough spin.

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What is wrong with my assumption? Can you explain how you would correct it? I bet not. The math is pretty simple if I assume there is no spring effect and the impact is in-elastic. I posted a link but that simple formulas seems to confused you. So lets assume the impact isn't in-elastic. Can you derive the speed and spin after impact formulas? Do you even know what they are? Now you are really lost.

How can you criticize what you don't understand?

Does it really change anything? The point is that one should be able to generate enough spin even with a dead rubber. One should be able to generate more than enough spin with rubber that that has some tangential elasticity. If you can generate spin with these new rubbers, and just about any of them, it is your problem not the equipment.

I am still waiting for Zeio to explain how power stroke, hitting through the ball, can generate the claimed spin. There is a way, but not very likely. let's see if Zeio can explain it.
Can you point out where you have written the equations that you claim to understand?
 
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Last reply. I'll cut to the chase. Contact velocity is just one of many factors that affect spin.

Tennis Warehouse has recently published 3 articles on pickleball paddle (see below). The 2nd one happens to compare a pickleball paddle as-is with one that has a cheap table tennis topsheet-only non-inverted rubber attached. Essentially, a sandpaper racket vs a hardbat.

Pickleball Spin —
The Role of Surface Roughness in Spin Generation
1.2 Reaction Forces

...This displacement of the normal force is referred to as the "normal force offset". This offset force can act add to or subtract from the spin caused by the friction force. Combining Eq. 1-3, the net spin due to friction and normal forces is

(5) RF - DN = Icm(ω2 - ω1)

...Figure 6 — Incident linear and rotational velocities in opposite directions. The ball grips at all incident angles regardless of static COF. At the contact point, the rebound spin velocity Rω2 is equal and opposite the linear ball velocity vx2. The contact velocity is thus zero and all paddles produce about the same spin at all angles of incidence. The divergence of actual spin from the theoretical maximum is due to the normal-offset torque. The braking motion of impact moves the normal force forward as does the clockwise topspin into the paddle in front of the CM. The normal force then works in the opposite direction of the friction force, reducing the spin from its maximum potential.

Pickleball Spin —
Why Is A Rubber Hitting Surface Illegal?
1.3. Torque Due To Elastic Force

...Since rubber surfaces are outlawed in pickleball, only friction comes into play to increase spin, and as we have seen, friction has a maximum spin limit. If there is horizontal, elastic snap-back, the friction spin limit can be greatly exceeded.

Pickleball Power: Paddle Materials And Performance
3.4. Effective Mass

...This resistance to rotation about an axis is measured as moment of inertia (in racquet sports terminology, "swingweight" or "twistweight", depending on the axis). At any given impact location on the paddle, weight, swingweight, and twistweight combine into the effective mass of that impact location. This is known as the "hittingweight".

4. Discussion and Analysis

...The results of this experiment indicate that the energy return property of all paddles is approximately the same when considered as non-moveable structures. ...However, when the impact energy is allowed to be split up and shared between the two colliding objects, then differences appear.

5. Conclusion

Static tests to determine properties can be misleading because they measure a property of a paddle in isolation of how that property behaves in dynamic interactions with a ball. Measuring the isolated property is necessary to determining the dynamic interactional outcome between ball and paddle, but extrapolating that result without performing a dynamic interactional analysis can result in incorrect conclusions.
 
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He has already explained what is wrong with your assumption - if it were true, then the rubber used, whether dead or not, would have no impact on the observed differences in spin production when one changes rubber. And this is clearly not what we see in the real world. No, one cannot produce enough spin with a dead rubber. You should be able to explain that. There are differences in surface grip and sponge elasticity that affect spin production.

You probably meant to write "If you can't generate spin with these new rubbers..." . If you can't be precise with your language, then why are you being so annoying quibbling about things you are divorcing from what happens in the real world? How many top players use dead rubbers? Is it because they are idiots who don't know how to get spin?

You don't even know how to play decent forehand topspin. Is that why you get kicks off insulting people online?
Well, in case he means people should be able to produce sufficient spin against him with a dead rubber I think that is a valid statement. For that purpose 80rev/sec is sufficient. Maybe a beach sandal would be sufficient equipment.

I do feel bad about saying this since I don't like to belittle others and he is an older chap so I would give kudos for him to still play and be overly enthusiastic on the forum.

But for higher level play one needs shots that are more around what Zeio has posted, 150-180rev/sec range, and of course keeping the brushed open up as low as possible to the net so when the ball bounces on the opponent court it bounces low and kicks forward. That is a very difficult ball to deal with.
If someone can only do a 80rev/sec open up it's more of a detriment and should just not open up at all since better players will smash such an "empty" ball in their face.
 
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noise bombs are a reality. Now iffen you would send both , James Z and BB out basking with a
Shakuhachi flute , all people within about 50m would instantly disappear. Another good instrument which has the same effect on many people is a bagpipe .
My personal favorite is a Sopranino Sax, When the highest notes are blown, blood streams out of my eyes ears and nose :D
I'm a bass player so I don't bother anyone... but I love to put my amp and cabinets near those acoustic guitar players to make them understand the power of feedback :sneaky:
 
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I'm a bass player so I don't bother anyone... but I love to put my amp and cabinets near those acoustic guitar players to make them understand the power of feedback :sneaky:
Good on ye, powerful weapon a bass.
However, to impress both James and BB I had this in mind:

How can sound waves be used as a weapon?
Infrasonic weapons like the long range acoustic device (LRAD) rely on loud, low frequency sounds (infrasound). These bulky units have been used for crowd control . When on high power, the effects are like a “punch in the guts”, ranging from nausea to involuntary evacuation of the bowels. 😂 😂
 
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I want speed, faster and faster and faster... then I found Donic Bluestorm Z1. I am now a happy lil'camper...
Ok, i will let him know and see if he will choose it and being a happy lil'camper like you 😁 :LOL:(y)
 
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Can you point out where you have written the equations that you claim to understand?
That is insulting. Would you understand them, Wannabee? Did you ever get your degree you were trying for years ago. I believe it was for electrical engineering.

BTW, I have posted links to many pdfs. No one cared. No one even tried to understand them.
 
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Well, in case he means people should be able to produce sufficient spin against him with a dead rubber I think that is a valid statement. For that purpose 80rev/sec is sufficient. Maybe a beach sandal would be sufficient equipment.

I do feel bad about saying this since I don't like to belittle others and he is an older chap so I would give kudos for him to still play and be overly enthusiastic on the forum.

But for higher level play one needs shots that are more around what Zeio has posted, 150-180rev/sec range, and of course keeping the brushed open up as low as possible to the net so when the ball bounces on the opponent court it bounces low and kicks forward. That is a very difficult ball to deal with.
If someone can only do a 80rev/sec open up it's more of a detriment and should just not open up at all since better players will smash such an "empty" ball in their face.
Zeio document said power drive. Not brush loop. Can you explain how there can be so much spin, 180 rev/sec, with the list paddle speed?
I know you can't. You wouldn't even know where to begin. I doesn't just magically happen.
You you even know what the Magnus effect is or how to calculate it?
Show me/us your proof?
 
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That is insulting. Would you understand them, Wannabee? Did you ever get your degree you were trying for years ago. I believe it was for electrical engineering.

BTW, I have posted links to many pdfs. No one cared. No one even tried to understand them.

I'm trying to understand. Can you answer my questions from the above post when you get the chance? Thank you very much!
 
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That is insulting. Would you understand them, Wannabee? Did you ever get your degree you were trying for years ago. I believe it was for electrical engineering.

BTW, I have posted links to many pdfs. No one cared. No one even tried to understand them.
Seriously, you don't know how to play table tennis. You parrot a lot of things that betray an ignorance of what it actually takes to play high level tennis. Then you hide behind claims about understanding a system with mathematics that even the mathematicians who model it will tell you that their models are simplistic and of limited value for explaining the dynamics of high level play. Good players wigh physics backgrounds are far more humble about what they can say about the physics of table tennis because they know that high level table tennis is largely composed of tacit knowledge acquired over many years. It is much easier to try something and learn from it than to pretend that sophisticated modeling will give you an understanding that makes you a better player. You were one of the low level posters at mytt that said something about all that matters is what happens at contact which failed to account for how the backswing and the follow through could create a turning effect that may not be easily described just by focusing on the contact. But you play at too low a level to actually understand this and you then parrot the advice people give to beginners about not changing your racket angle during the stroke. The bottom line here is that you need to play much better table tennis to be taken seriously. I do commend you for posting your play so that people know how seriously to take you.
 
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That is insulting. Would you understand them, Wannabee? Did you ever get your degree you were trying for years ago. I believe it was for electrical engineering.

BTW, I have posted links to many pdfs. No one cared. No one even tried to understand them.
For the record, I had the engineering degree years before I started playing TT. You seem to have a very bad memory for academic credentials, often making them up for players you respect and disparaging those of people you don't like. In any case there is no point making up for your low level play with bad arguments based on models whose limitations you play at too low a level to understand. Have you ever hit a loop drive before? Can you post of video of you hitting one?
 
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Well, in case he means people should be able to produce sufficient spin against him with a dead rubber I think that is a valid statement. For that purpose 80rev/sec is sufficient. Maybe a beach sandal would be sufficient equipment.

I do feel bad about saying this since I don't like to belittle others and he is an older chap so I would give kudos for him to still play and be overly enthusiastic on the forum.

But for higher level play one needs shots that are more around what Zeio has posted, 150-180rev/sec range, and of course keeping the brushed open up as low as possible to the net so when the ball bounces on the opponent court it bounces low and kicks forward. That is a very difficult ball to deal with.
If someone can only do a 80rev/sec open up it's more of a detriment and should just not open up at all since better players will smash such an "empty" ball in their face.
There's no way a commoner can get 80 rev/s with a dead bat with the new plastic ball. 80 rev/s = 4800 rpm and is nothing to sneeze at. Note that based on Hawkeye results Ma Long frequently only loops at 6000+rpm, and that's with boosted tacky Hurricanes and it's Ma Long the greatest of all time looping with perfect biomechanics. Xu Xin used to be the highest spin Looper by far and even he only gets high 7000+rpm when they were measuring it. Of course these are during matches where they're not giving 120% energy but have to land the shot with good percentages. But it is a good barometer to use.

There were a couple of very high level players (provincial level) on Fang Bo's channel and they were struggling to even get above 100 rev/s. Of course the top level players like Fang Bo and Fang Yinchi gets up to 130+rps.

Maybe there's differences in when the Hawkeye measures the spin (spin is lost with time due to air resistance). Zeio's paper could be with celluloid rather than plastic, and they could be measuring ball spin during contact rather than during flight - that is my guess

Hence I am questioning the entire model by broken ball - because all of these don't add up - because there's no way 80 rev/s is achievable with a dead bat.
 
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For the record, I had the engineering degree years before I started playing TT.
A new claim. So you got your degree before 2009. OK. What have you done with it?

You seem to have a very bad memory for academic credentials, often making them up for players you respect and disparaging those of people you don't like.
That was many years ago. You never have shown any engineering or physics knowledge on a TT forum.
BTW, it was you that made the disparaging remarks about me. You said you could beat me with a 7 ball handicap. My 3rd coach had a rating of about 2500 and couldn't beat me with a 6 ball handicap.

So if you are so good at engineering then show where I have gone wrong with my math.
You haven't. You can't.
Now I can think of an important assumption I have made but it doesn't change anything which is you can create a lot of spin with even relatively dead rubber. It just takes the right stroke.

In any case there is no point making up for your low level play with bad arguments based on models whose limitations you play at too low a level to understand. Have you ever hit a loop drive before? Can you post of video of you hitting one?
You claimed you could beat me with a 7 ball handicap once. Idle boast. Again, my 3rd coach had a rating of 2500 and he couldn't beat me with a 6 ball handicap.
BTW, my 3rd coach beat Wang Jinxiin in the Seattle open just after Wang Jinxin won the US Open. My third coach was 1/3 my age.
My 3rd coach was a good player but really knew nothing about physics.

So wise guy. How do you explain what Zeio posted? 180 rev/sec on a power drive.
Maybe it is just a measurement error.

The rest of you should know that an electrical engineer must still take mechanical engineering, chemistry and physics classes so someone that claims to be an engineer should be able to solve simple TT problems.

So WTF have you done so that you deserve to be called an engineer? I have come across many so called engineers that were relatively ignorant. They are OK as a plant engineer where they just need to keep the same old equipment running day after day but they aren't real creators!

BTW, I have posted two videos. One where I am playing c-pen. I made this in support of the c-pen players. I am not a c-pen player but the physics doesn't change. There are some good loops in that video. I find playing c-pen to be natural. Go fish. I have also posted a video where I am trying to do my best Pushblocker immitation. I think I would try this paddle against you. Blocking short to the sides would stress your knees. Again, go fish.
 
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I'm trying to understand. Can you answer my questions from the above post when you get the chance? Thank you very much!
He can't even produce a backtested model after boasting so much about it. There's many practicing engineers on this site (myself being one with a decade of experience designing in many big projects - VictorMoraga is another it seems). In real life we never use any model which hasn't been backtested against real life physics (read: experimental data), especially if the risks are big. And you need to be able to defend your model when people ask questions of it, not just attack the questioner, otherwise you will never get approval from the authorities lol...

Now, the papers that zeio posted seem to have a much better answer on the real world physics of ball spin. And they being actual papers, I would trust them 100x more than some random theory posted online with no peer review
 
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He can't even produce a backtested model after boasting so much about it. There's many practicing engineers on this site (myself being one with a decade of experience designing in many big projects - VictorMoraga is another it seems).
You guys don't know shit. Show where I am wrong! It is that simple. So far you have done nothing but criticize without proof.

In real life we never use any model which hasn't been backtested against real life physics (read: experimental data), especially if the risks are big.
That isn't true. It is if risks are big but how to you test an airplane lauch or a rocket launch.
Well?

[quote[
And you need to be able to defend your model when people ask questions of it, not just attack the questioner, otherwise you will never get approval from the authorities lol...
[/quote]
I have. You all are too stupid to realize it. Now show me/us what I have done wrong. I have asked this many times and I/we have got no answer. It is you that are idiots. making claims you can not justify.

Now, the papers that zeio posted seem to have a much better answer on the real world physics of ball spin. And they being actual papers, I would trust them 100x more than some random theory posted online with no peer review
Again, explain how a paddle moving 17.6 m/s generates a spin of 180 rev/sec.
YOU CAN'T.
 
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That isn't true. It is if risks are big but how to you test an airplane lauch or a rocket launch.
Well?
This statement precisely betrays your lack of knowledge of actual real world engineering. If you follow SpaceX for eg, every single component of a rocket is meticulously tested to verify their modelling and calculations. And if there's any anomalous behaviour they will postpone launches until the issue is actually fixed and rectified. It is even more stringent with airplanes. Otherwise why bother with wind tunnels and rocket test fires?

Even in finite element models, all the material models are meticulously tested against real world experimental data, before it can be safely used. There's tons of testing/verification of models throughout the years, which is what gives engineers confidence in using them.

Your model of the racket - ball interaction falls apart under the simplest poking which you can't provide an explanation to, instead resorting to personal insults.

1) your model suggests that you can generate 80 rev/s off a dead rubber which I can safely say it is completely false and a huge overestimate due to comparisons with historical Hawkeye measurements of pro players.

2) in your model, the surface of the racket doesn't matter, but real life behaviour shows that the rubber matters a huge deal.

You don't even understand the papers that zeio posted - not even the paper with the simplified Pickleball physics which already has a much more complex model than yours. In zeio's paper the experimenters were able to show that their model can predict resulting pickleball behaviour down with little errors. Can yours predict ball behaviour to such precision?
 
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Seriously, you don't know how to play table tennis. You parrot a lot of things that betray an ignorance of what it actually takes to play high level tennis. Then you hide behind claims about understanding a system with mathematics that even the mathematicians who model it will tell you that their models are simplistic and of limited value for explaining the dynamics of high level play. Good players wigh physics backgrounds are far more humble about what they can say about the physics of table tennis because they know that high level table tennis is largely composed of tacit knowledge acquired over many years. It is much easier to try something and learn from it than to pretend that sophisticated modeling will give you an understanding that makes you a better player. You were one of the low level posters at mytt that said something about all that matters is what happens at contact which failed to account for how the backswing and the follow through could create a turning effect that may not be easily described just by focusing on the contact. But you play at too low a level to actually understand this and you then parrot the advice people give to beginners about not changing your racket angle during the stroke. The bottom line here is that you need to play much better table tennis to be taken seriously. I do commend you for posting your play so that people know how seriously to take you.
It appears that he is not even a good engineer given he thinks that people launch rockets and airplanes without extensive model testing and verification 😂
 
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It appears that he is not even a good engineer given he thinks that people launch rockets and airplanes without extensive model testing and verification 😂
The saddest part is that while it is pickleball, there is enough there to point out clearly that brokenball is being silly - zeio quoted all the relevant parts and if I felt brokenball was worth taking seriously I would read the papers.

"...Since rubber surfaces are outlawed in pickleball, only friction comes into play to increase spin, and as we have seen, friction has a maximum spin limit. If there is horizontal, elastic snap-back, the friction spin limit can be greatly exceeded."

Translation: elastic rubber surfaces can exceed the friction spin limit - gee, what sport uses rubber surfaces? And if a rubber is dead and no longer elastic, what does that mean for its friction spin limit?

"Conclusion

Static tests to determine properties can be misleading because they measure a property of a paddle in isolation of how that property behaves in dynamic interactions with a ball. Measuring the isolated property is necessary to determining the dynamic interactional outcome between ball and paddle, but extrapolating that result without performing a dynamic interactional analysis can result in incorrect conclusions."


Translation: you can't understand how physical properties of materials affect people who play without looking at the actual play of the people using these materials because it is more complicated than just doing a static test of of the material. Gee - who repeatedly champions static tests to discover properties without being able to play TT at a level dynamic enough to appreciate the limitations of such tests?

Of course, the response will be something silly about writing the equations or some claptrap.
 
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A new claim. So you got your degree before 2009. OK. What have you done with it?


That was many years ago. You never have shown any engineering or physics knowledge on a TT forum.
BTW, it was you that made the disparaging remarks about me. You said you could beat me with a 7 ball handicap. My 3rd coach had a rating of about 2500 and couldn't beat me with a 6 ball handicap.

So if you are so good at engineering then show where I have gone wrong with my math.
You haven't. You can't.
Now I can think of an important assumption I have made but it doesn't change anything which is you can create a lot of spin with even relatively dead rubber. It just takes the right stroke.


You claimed you could beat me with a 7 ball handicap once. Idle boast. Again, my 3rd coach had a rating of 2500 and he couldn't beat me with a 6 ball handicap.
BTW, my 3rd coach beat Wang Jinxiin in the Seattle open just after Wang Jinxin won the US Open. My third coach was 1/3 my age.
My 3rd coach was a good player but really knew nothing about physics.

So wise guy. How do you explain what Zeio posted? 180 rev/sec on a power drive.
Maybe it is just a measurement error.

The rest of you should know that an electrical engineer must still take mechanical engineering, chemistry and physics classes so someone that claims to be an engineer should be able to solve simple TT problems.

So WTF have you done so that you deserve to be called an engineer? I have come across many so called engineers that were relatively ignorant. They are OK as a plant engineer where they just need to keep the same old equipment running day after day but they aren't real creators!

BTW, I have posted two videos. One where I am playing c-pen. I made this in support of the c-pen players. I am not a c-pen player but the physics doesn't change. There are some good loops in that video. I find playing c-pen to be natural. Go fish. I have also posted a video where I am trying to do my best Pushblocker immitation. I think I would try this paddle against you. Blocking short to the sides would stress your knees. Again, go fish.
Just to save me looking, does anyone have links to the videos BB posted of his play?
 
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You guys don't know shit. Show where I am wrong! It is that simple. So far you have done nothing but criticize without proof.


That isn't true. It is if risks are big but how to you test an airplane lauch or a rocket launch.
Well?

And you need to be able to defend your model when people ask questions of it, not just attack the questioner, otherwise you will never get approval from the authorities lol...
I have. You all are too stupid to realize it. Now show me/us what I have done wrong. I have asked this many times and I/we have got no answer. It is you that are idiots. making claims you can not justify.


Again, explain how a paddle moving 17.6 m/s generates a spin of 180 rev/sec.
YOU CAN'T.

I know that it's enticing to respond immediately to your critics. But I notice that you are responding immediately to them while my very simple questions remained unanswered.

You seem frustrated that people are not listening to your lessons on physics but here I am asking several times nicely to please share your knowledge with me.

Please ignore the other posters and don't get too riled up. When you're ready to explain to me and other curious members, please respond. Cheers.
 
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