Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[NextLevel]

So I played a league on June 4, but it wasn't the kind of league I was used to. Usually, I am looking for many matches against opponents close to my level, which is what happens in most leagues. This league was more like a mini RR tournament, two groups of 4 players each with 2 advancing from each group to a knockout., I was top seed with my inflated rating lol. The #2 seed won the whole event, beating me 3-0. I haven't trained against medium pips in a while and I never fully respected his chop, which probably cost me more points than I should have. But he is definitely a better player than me at this point, I think in Texas, there are too few tournaments so people don't get a chance to adjust their ratings quickly.

Here is the final. Not a good match, but a reminder that I have to broaden my training again if I get a chance to train extensively.

 

[Jslick89]

The great @Der_Echte graciously worked with me last night at open play for about 20 minutes (5 minutes off table while I was resting) and another 15 minutes on the table. I honestly feel that with a couple weeks of practice with these simple concepts, I am going to go up a table.

Review of the lesson

First, we reviewed the errors in my ways of backhand. One of the main points, as he mentioned in the video safe thread the other day, is that I am contacting the ball way too far out ahead. This is a result of me starting with my bat too far forward, resulting in the backswing not being in my "power zone" and subsequently, the contact on the ball before too far in front of my body.

Secondly, at my level for backhand, i'm am cocking my wrist back way too much (he later pointed out, that much wrist is only needed when doing a heavy heavy spin, which i am definitely not at that level yet. and the focus of this lesson was having a more effective, compact, and powerful backhand drive). I was also bringing the bat back at far too closed of an angle.

So we practiced the short compact stroke (maybe 6--8 inches of a quick punch type movement) on the bench. it took a lot of physical hands on correction from Der_echte but i finally started to get it a little bit. I definitely plan to practice this in front of the mirror a LOT in the next few weeks.

Finally, we hopped on the table and he demonstrated how powerful a short punchy backhand drive really could be. The ball zipped past me. He fed me a couple high-ish deadballs to my backhand for me to try. The backswing was noticeably improved, but now the feedback was that I wasn't squeezing my hand hard enough at the point of contact, resulting in a low quality ball. After a handful more of practice balls, I was getting a semi-quality shot with a nice hand squeeze at the point of contact. This resulted in a fast, driving ball. This will take a lot more practice to be confident and consistent, but I will note that I was surprised that I could hit that powerful with a short swing, 45 degree bat angle, and still keep the ball on the table. Backhand felt pretty good!

Finally, Der gave me two more tools to be able to adjust the placement of my backhand shots. The first tool was on my backswing, bring my right elbow slightly to the right, which brought my paddle slightly to the right of my belly button on the backswing. By doing this, I can punch foreward still ,but effectively place the ball into the deep left corner on the other side of the table. This is going to be a really useful tool for when my opponent is trying to jam balls into my elbow and i don't have time to adjust properly for my real weapon- the forehand.

The second tool was to slightly rotate my hip counter clockwise. This allowed me to do the "normal" backswing, but have the geometric ability to effectively drive the ball to the deep left corner on the other side of the table. This is effective for when the opponent is insistent on hitting deep into my backhand corner.

Finally, we practiced the drill where I hit two backhands deep into der's backhand corner, and then on the third ball, I use either of the previously mentioned tools to drive deep into his empty forehand for the kill shot.

 

[SleepyMaster]

This was my first tournament in over 2 and a half years so I was an overrated 2050 (I am now under 2000 with the points I lost). My opponent didn't lose an match in any event and was an underrated 2100. His rating right now is 2196 or so, but he is still underrated, definitely at least 2250 and more likely over 2300. It' just that because I know how to serve short ant attack serves on backhand, I tend to look better against these players than I should.

Your style is actually reminds me one guy, from our team. He is serving mostly long under spin, and opens up with very spiny and low topspin’s. From both sides, but mostly backhand. Those are pretty hard to block or counter loop shots

 

[Der_Echte]

One of administrators of our club, is playing that style, and he is beating a lot of young promising talents. Just by feeling, placement and a powerful smash. Dude is in his sixty plus years, never played or trained traditional two wing topspin style - but he played in some league and Setka cups, and upsetting a lot of people with classical technique

Just about everyone at the Church I play at is Ukrainian with a Russian or Belarus parent.

The Pastor I have been trying to train the last year or two was exactly like that (he is the younger brother of the 60 yr old player I described) and very difficult to get him to relax joints and play spin shots. He WANTS to spin, but so many decades of instinct striking the ball a certain way for fast, little to no spin rallies is tough to over come... on serve receive BH he has made a lot of progress though, and his footwork improved greatly.

If this Pastor did tourneys, he would be California 1700+ in singles, which is getting into the top 20 percent of players. Not terrible for not spinning as much as he would like and maybe he can improve a lot more, he is a very athletic dude. He has another 15 years before he will slow down.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Just about everyone at the Church I play at is Ukrainian with a Russian or Belarus parent.

The Pastor I have been trying to train the last year or two was exactly like that (he is the younger brother of the 60 yr old player I described) and very difficult to get him to relax joints and play spin shots. He WANTS to spin, but so many decades of instinct striking the ball a certain way for fast, little to no spin rallies is tough to over come... on serve receive BH he has made a lot of progress though, and his footwork improved greatly.

If this Pastor did tourneys, he would be California 1700+ in singles, which is getting into the top 20 percent of players. Not terrible for not spinning as much as he would like and maybe he can improve a lot more, he is a very athletic dude. He has another 15 years before he will slow down.

This is the specialty of TT, that in amateur level, there is so many ways and styles, that leads you to how you can win a match.

Not everyone build to topspin, but there are so much other options to have some fun on the table. Why not to? 🙂

 

[Der_Echte]

The great @Der_Echte graciously worked with me last night at open play for about 20 minutes (5 minutes off table while I was resting) and another 15 minutes on the table. I honestly feel that with a couple weeks of practice with these simple concepts, I am going to go up a table.

Review of the lesson

First, we reviewed the errors in my ways of backhand. One of the main points, as he mentioned in the video safe thread the other day, is that I am contacting the ball way too far out ahead. This is a result of me starting with my bat too far forward, resulting in the backswing not being in my "power zone" and subsequently, the contact on the ball before too far in front of my body.

Secondly, at my level for backhand, i'm am cocking my wrist back way too much (he later pointed out, that much wrist is only needed when doing a heavy heavy spin, which i am definitely not at that level yet. and the focus of this lesson was having a more effective, compact, and powerful backhand drive). I was also bringing the bat back at far too closed of an angle.

So we practiced the short compact stroke (maybe 6--8 inches of a quick punch type movement) on the bench. it took a lot of physical hands on correction from Der_echte but i finally started to get it a little bit. I definitely plan to practice this in front of the mirror a LOT in the next few weeks.

Finally, we hopped on the table and he demonstrated how powerful a short punchy backhand drive really could be. The ball zipped past me. He fed me a couple high-ish deadballs to my backhand for me to try. The backswing was noticeably improved, but now the feedback was that I wasn't squeezing my hand hard enough at the point of contact, resulting in a low quality ball. After a handful more of practice balls, I was getting a semi-quality shot with a nice hand squeeze at the point of contact. This resulted in a fast, driving ball. This will take a lot more practice to be confident and consistent, but I will note that I was surprised that I could hit that powerful with a short swing, 45 degree bat angle, and still keep the ball on the table. Backhand felt pretty good!

Finally, Der gave me two more tools to be able to adjust the placement of my backhand shots. The first tool was on my backswing, bring my right elbow slightly to the right, which brought my paddle slightly to the right of my belly button on the backswing. By doing this, I can punch foreward still ,but effectively place the ball into the deep left corner on the other side of the table. This is going to be a really useful tool for when my opponent is trying to jam balls into my elbow and i don't have time to adjust properly for my real weapon- the forehand.

The second tool was to slightly rotate my hip counter clockwise. This allowed me to do the "normal" backswing, but have the geometric ability to effectively drive the ball to the deep left corner on the other side of the table. This is effective for when the opponent is insistent on hitting deep into my backhand corner.

Finally, we practiced the drill where I hit two backhands deep into der's backhand corner, and then on the third ball, I use either of the previously mentioned tools to drive deep into his empty forehand for the kill shot.

I am glad you were able to receive the small items I articulated. You have a desire to improve and that is why I talked to you.

Truth being, many players around you your level stay there, because they do not want to do the things to change nor endure the failure and expense.

What I showed you was what Next Level would categorize as LOW HANGING FRUIT, which means something(s) you can grasp and immediately or quickly put into your game with good effect.

At your level, you will get 1-2 loose, slow, high, dead or light balls to your BH... if you have this short, compact, lower arm driven stroke with some firming, you will get winners on those shots. This shot can also be pressure and give you the chance to change it up on the 3rd or 4th BH to break rhythm and win the point with a change of direction. (That is hte 2 BH 1 down the line sequence we did - it is so damn easy)

1-2 points more a game is like getting 2 levels of improvement to your level... and this is without extensive training or work.

Having an efficient BH and knowing basic adjustments to make is huge. We do not always read the ball right or read where to be, so we are often out of position a little or more... knowing how to adjust the arm and bat in prep or how to take a small step let you be in position with leverage... you do not need big swings on BH wing close to the table.

When you can make any of the ways to adjust (step, hip turn, slide impact point to left or right, or hit a little early of late... the opponent doesn't see it coming and in practice you would not know what happened unless told what was done to get the ball there.

It gives you options when you have committed yourself to a BH shot and find yourself not in perfect position. That is the difference between pissing away points and making them and boost your confidence.

 

[Der_Echte]

This is the specialty of TT, that in amateur level, there is so many ways and styles, that leads you to how you can win a match.

Not everyone build to topspin, but there are so much other options to have some fun on the table. Why not to? 🙂

Yes, this is true and correct what you just said.

There is no single correct answer, and ultimately, if we are to stay in the sport, we must enjoy it and play in a way we can keep enjoying.

 

[Jslick89]

I am glad you were able to receive the small items I articulated. You have a desire to improve and that is why I talked to you.

Truth being, many players around you your level stay there, because they do not want to do the things to change nor endure the failure and expense.

What I showed you was what Next Level would categorize as LOW HANGING FRUIT, which means something(s) you can grasp and immediately or quickly put into your game with good effect.

At your level, you will get 1-2 loose, slow, high, dead or light balls to your BH... if you have this short, compact, lower arm driven stroke with some firming, you will get winners on those shots. This shot can also be pressure and give you the chance to change it up on the 3rd or 4th BH to break rhythm and win the point with a change of direction. (That is hte 2 BH 1 down the line sequence we did - it is so damn easy)

1-2 points more a game is like getting 2 levels of improvement to your level... and this is without extensive training or work.

Having an efficient BH and knowing basic adjustments to make is huge. We do not always read the ball right or read where to be, so we are often out of position a little or more... knowing how to adjust the arm and bat in prep or how to take a small step let you be in position with leverage... you do not need big swings on BH wing close to the table.

When you can make any of the ways to adjust (step, hip turn, slide impact point to left or right, or hit a little early of late... the opponent doesn't see it coming and in practice you would not know what happened unless told what was done to get the ball there.

It gives you options when you have committed yourself to a BH shot and find yourself not in perfect position. That is the difference between pissing away points and making them and boost your confidence.

100% agree. I think a good goal for me is to eat the rest of the low-hanging fruit. I am ok with getting back to the basics! That's actually what I have liked about training with Jude because we spent a lot of time working on the basics of my forehand stroke and fixing the grip! I'm already seeing noticeable improvement.

Going to practice the 2bh 1 down the line a lot leading up to the tournament.

 

[SleepyMaster]

This was my first tournament in over 2 and a half years so I was an overrated 2050 (I am now under 2000 with the points I lost). My opponent didn't lose an match in any event and was an underrated 2100. His rating right now is 2196 or so, but he is still underrated, definitely at least 2250 and more likely over 2300. It' just that because I know how to serve short ant attack serves on backhand, I tend to look better against these players than I should.

To be fair, he is not looking like 2300 player, but again we have a totally different rating system. So maybe im missing something.
I can judge only by watching other 2300 players games. Maybe if you messing him up, with more shirt serves, mixing sidespin or no spin - results would be different, but you know your game better and you feeling the opponent better as well. So im not trying giving advices on anything, just guessing, for the pure interest

 

[NextLevel]

To be fair, he is not looking like 2300 player, but again we have a totally different rating system. So maybe im missing something.
I can judge only by watching other 2300 players games. Maybe if you messing him up, with more shirt serves, mixing sidespin or no spin - results would be different, but you know your game better and you feeling the opponent better as well. So im not trying giving advices on anything, just guessing, for the pure interest

You are right, and maybe is not 2300, but he is definitely 2250+, and if I had recorded the other matches he won (both 3-0 against 2200+ and 2300+), you would have seen what I meant. As the level of opponent went up, his level went up tremendously. It was crazy to watch. I think he partly played down to my rating and like I said, my game structure when I am warned about such players (he beat my lefty practice partner 3-0 at another event) is to try to prevent their first ball attack, which might not be as big a deal if the player sometimes pushes long balls.

After the whole thing, I asked him how he is 2100 and he said that he just moved to the US for work, but that he didn't know there were events nearby, he was mostly travelling to training camps to get his training in. So don't let my game against him give you the wrong impression.

 

[Der_Echte]

@Jslick89

This Korean vid explains a lot of the concepts, but you do not need as much arm... you can do what is in the vid with a shorter swing, impact closer to your body, and firming at impact. Coach Lee discusses these in the eng subs.

Hitting the ball more in front is OK, if you are trying to extend the point of impact forward as an adjustment, but I advocate for impact closer to the body than shown here.

Coach Lee subtly told a player to be closer to the table, it makes it easier to take a small step to the ball. At 1:27 it is also very subtle, but important for the swing to be short. He spent 1/2 second and moved on, but it is huge to use a compact stroke. At 10:22 he gets into using little wrist at first, them more later as skill improves. I stressed to not use too much wrist early, it will come later and you use less than you think.

 

[NextLevel]

There is no single correct answer, and ultimately, if we are to stay in the sport, we must enjoy it and play in a way we can keep enjoying.

Too wise.

 

[NextLevel]

You are right, and maybe is not 2300, but he is definitely 2250+, and if I had recorded the other matches he won (both 3-0 against 2200+ and 2300+), you would have seen what I meant. As the level of opponent went up, his level went up tremendously. It was crazy to watch. I think he partly played down to my rating and like I said, my game structure when I am warned about such players (he beat my lefty practice partner 3-0 at another event) is to try to prevent their first ball attack, which might not be as big a deal if the player sometimes pushes long balls.

After the whole thing, I asked him how he is 2100 and he said that he just moved to the US for work, but that he didn't know there were events nearby, he was mostly travelling to training camps to get his training in. So don't let my game against him give you the wrong impression.

When he made this shot, I did a double take during the match in my own calm style and asked - how is this guy 2100?

 

[Der_Echte]

To be fair, he is not looking like 2300 player, but again we have a totally different rating system. So maybe im missing something.
I can judge only by watching other 2300 players games. Maybe if you messing him up, with more shirt serves, mixing sidespin or no spin - results would be different, but you know your game better and you feeling the opponent better as well. So im not trying giving advices on anything, just guessing, for the pure interest

Hi GM, you observed correctly that in the vid he is not showing 2200+ skill much, but in tourneys, a 2200+ player facing a sub 2000 player will do the minimum amount of hard work to win. At that level, there are so many ways to control the opponent. You can see signs of it, but not full out all shots all the time. It isn't needed.

 

[SleepyMaster]

You are right, and maybe is not 2300, but he is definitely 2250+, and if I had recorded the other matches he won (both 3-0 against 2200+ and 2300+), you would have seen what I meant. As the level of opponent went up, his level went up tremendously. It was crazy to watch. I think he partly played down to my rating and like I said, my game structure when I am warned about such players (he beat my lefty practice partner 3-0 at another event) is to try to prevent their first ball attack, which might not be as big a deal if the player sometimes pushes long balls.

After the whole thing, I asked him how he is 2100 and he said that he just moved to the US for work, but that he didn't know there were events nearby, he was mostly travelling to training camps to get his training in. So don't let my game against him give you the wrong impression.

Yeah, maybe. Sometimes players shines more when they have harder of a challenge. But you were not to far from getting win on him.

Anyway our rating system is the thing I don't really understand, Yarsolav Zhmudenko that playing as a pro, and playing in Bundesliga having about 75 Ukrainian rating, my coach was 60-65 when he actively competed. But as I see people, that playing level 20 in Ukrainian rating is already 2000+ in usatt
But my coach is telling me, that soon it will be rebuilt to some sort of USATT rating system

 

[Der_Echte]

Too wise.

Thanks, but it is a more practical and keeping it real thang more than wisdom.

 

[SleepyMaster]

When he made this shot, I did a double take during the match in my own calm style and asked - how is this guy 2100?

I can do such shots too, but im not 2300 definitely. I really like to counter loop I guess its just the thing that came from boxing, where I was pretty good at counter punching.
He make only one countertop since you loops is strong and low enough, in that moment he just anticipated that move - and predicted the ball placement and trajectory

 

[NextLevel]

I can do such shots too, but im not 2300 definitely. I really like to counter loop I guess its just the thing that came from boxing, where I was pretty good at counter punching

Everyone can do such shots in practice but I know my ball quality on that loop so if you can do that to that loop with that timing, then you are going to be 2300 too.

 

[SleepyMaster]

Everyone can do such shots in practice but I know my ball quality on that loop so if you can do that to that loop with that timing, then you are going to be 2300 too.

Im not talking bout practice, im talking bout real game. In practice I can beat my coach at counter looping from forehands sometimes, both close and far from the table, and he's very strong and technical in spin department. You definitely have good spin, but that opening you repeated for several times, and your opponent just played it like in practice, its was a hard shot, but he waited for that move - because of that, he was able to execute, not because he is 2300, again just my humble opinion, that limited by my experience, and technique understanding of TT.

I will upload some of my games, there is no point for me, to fabricate some sort of an skill that I didn't develop

 

[beeray1]

Sorry to introduce a tangent - is it worth me making the trek to the L.A. Open this year? Since getting back into the sport I've learned that the midwest US tournament scene is pretty dead now, so I'm trying to make myself okay with just accepting that I'll have to travel farther for some competitive exposure. I heard it was a bit small post covid, but it's still a 4-star and I have fond memories of going in my younger years.