Experience with some other Loki rubbers - Arthur China, GTX Pro (inc)

[hclnnkhg]

Anyway, the whole point of this trail was just to say I'm less excited about Rxton 9 because it seems like its a clone of H3, but I can get H3 for under $18 anyways.

If you are picky about qc, then maybe rxton 9 "national" follows a stricter standard.

For me, i dont mind if the rubber is slightly heavier or lighter.

Im more curious to see if Rxton 7 can compete with LAC or GTX or D09c

why are you even EJing then, just slap two H3s (commercial) on your blade...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Well its not just my opinion, its TT11's opinion as well. So tell me what they did wrong.

Im still waiting for you to actually provide evidence of your opinion instead of just trying to belittle others. Can you provide any basis of your opinion? Or is it just hot air

you call other people names, and i'm the one belittle others?
yes, its hot air indeed
lol

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

why are you even EJing then, just slap two H3s (commercial) on your blade...

I should tell the entire Chinese national team that Michael /TB suggest they should just slap commercials on.
I guess he also believes when Butterfly sales their pros use commerical tenergy

since my source is hot air ,and his source is youtube, his must be right!

 

[hclnnkhg]

I should tell the entire Chinese national team that Michael /TB suggest they should just slap commercials on.
I guess he also believes when Butterfly sales their pros use commerical tenergy

since my source is hot air ,and his source is youtube, his must be right!

He is entitled to FEEL little difference between all different H3s, I am fine with that because it is personal. I would be interested in some objective testing for the different versions. I don't like paying for DHS so I won't test them myself to see whether I can tell the difference.

But, H3 Nat is the gold standard of tacky Chinese rubber for most people, and if H3 Nat ~= H3 commercial for TB, then that is it. Just get that and boost the **** out of it. Two sheets of that, and he basically has Ma Long's setup. why bother with any other rubbers.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

He is entitled to FEEL little difference between all different H3s, I am fine with that because it is personal. I would be interested in some objective testing for the different versions. I don't like paying for DHS so I won't test them myself to see whether I can tell the difference.

But, H3 Nat is the gold standard of tacky Chinese rubber for most people, and if H3 Nat ~= H3 commercial for TB, then that is it. Just get that and boost the **** out of it. Two sheets of that, and he basically has Ma Long's setup. why bother with any other rubbers.

that is why I have been saying, the equipment review of 1 person is based on the technical ability limitation of that same person and in forums where people love to talk about equipment and sharing information on equipment to others, accuracy is going to be a problem (ie Hurricane 3 is not suited for penhold).

Like did TB actually feel QC differeces between the rubbers like he said, or did he just hear it from someone else, and just rebroadcasting it here (like what ERT will do)

Firstly, #20 and #22 is 2 different things.
Enough info should be out there, or we can ask Zeio to hyperlink it for you.
There is time line, ball change, booster, everything on how #22 came to be.

H3 national #22 is the gold standard for Chinese tacky rubbers.
Even Yinhe/729 sponsored players use it. I said it in the past, not even 729 or Yinhe can get a rubber close to H3 #22

Well, Rxton 9 to me is very close. I've used it for over a month now, and about to reboost and continue to study it. I'm not a TB kind of guy that will use a rubber for few minutes and move on to a dozen others. I'm a H3 user for a long long time. R9 really excites me, as it is probably the only rubber that I have tested for such a long time.

Since you mentioned Ma Long
I still remember taking that kids Ma Long rubbers on both sides and give it a few minutes try.
or just like any other national player I know who tried proper CNT rubbers.... our national and their national is not the same thing....

If any one thinks DHS seperate rubbers by QC and not by spec, is still in the 90s.
DHS QC is one of the best in TT equipment makers today and you can't deny that, no matter if it is high end balls, blades or rubbers, they are ahead, and people are trying to copy them.
They have become Butterfly, both product and attitude wise

Okay, I've reach my limit on talking unless info on TTD for the day.

 

[Attitude]

that is why I have been saying, the equipment review of 1 person is based on the technical ability limitation of that same person and in forums where people love to talk about equipment and sharing information on equipment to others, accuracy is going to be a problem (ie Hurricane 3 is not suited for penhold).

Like did TB actually feel QC differeces between the rubbers like he said, or did he just hear it from someone else, and just rebroadcasting it here (like what ERT will do)

Firstly, #20 and #22 is 2 different things.
Enough info should be out there, or we can ask Zeio to hyperlink it for you.
There is time line, ball change, booster, everything on how #22 came to be.

H3 national #22 is the gold standard for Chinese tacky rubbers.
Even Yinhe/729 sponsored players use it. I said it in the past, not even 729 or Yinhe can get a rubber close to H3 #22

Well, Rxton 9 to me is very close. I've used it for over a month now, and about to reboost and continue to study it. I'm not a TB kind of guy that will use a rubber for few minutes and move on to a dozen others. I'm a H3 user for a long long time. R9 really excites me, as it is probably the only rubber that I have tested for such a long time.

Since you mentioned Ma Long
I still remember taking that kids Ma Long rubbers on both sides and give it a few minutes try.
or just like any other national player I know who tried proper CNT rubbers.... our national and their national is not the same thing....

If any one thinks DHS seperate rubbers by QC and not by spec, is still in the 90s.
DHS QC is one of the best in TT equipment makers today and you can't deny that, no matter if it is high end balls, blades or rubbers, they are ahead, and people are trying to copy them.
They have become Butterfly, both product and attitude wise

Okay, I've reach my limit on talking unless info on TTD for the day.

Yeah great now im curious af and have to start testing shit again the moment it comes out for us mortal beings. Thanks Tony!
Hope that doesnt happen before the season ends though^^ Dont want to start EJing again in the middle of the season.

Besides, the only enoying part of this discussion is the fact, that we (and especially TB, because you participated in those threads) already discussed H3 in every aspect and have official answers to your questions.

To summ it up a little bit:
H3 OS is categorized in QS levels. While commercial have close to no control whatsoever, so you can have variations in hardness degrees up to 4 points, which would be huge. Imagine sticking 37° onto your bh and it is actually 41 hard. That would make a lot of fun.
Provincial still have some error in QS but it is not higher than 1-2 degree, which for me isnt noticable on fh at least.

H3 BS is a total different story. It is less linear, way more dynamic, less durable, and gives a completely different feeling, especially boosted. And it has lower tolerance for errors.
So i can somewhat understand Tonys reaction. You are simply warming up old topics because you got new insight from some amateurs who run a shop. But by now you should actually know, that ppls reviews wont give much insight on how you gonna play with that setup. In TT there are way to many factors that change everything the moment you change one of them.
On top of that, one review is such a ridiculous low evidence that i simply cant comprehend how you can focus so much on this simple video.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Yeah great now im curious af and have to start testing shit again the moment it comes out for us mortal beings. Thanks Tony!
Hope that doesnt happen before the season ends though^^ Dont want to start EJing again in the middle of the season.

Besides, the only enoying part of this discussion is the fact, that we (and especially TB, because you participated in those threads) already discussed H3 in every aspect and have official answers to your questions.

To summ it up a little bit:
H3 OS is categorized in QS levels. While commercial have close to no control whatsoever, so you can have variations in hardness degrees up to 4 points, which would be huge. Imagine sticking 37° onto your bh and it is actually 41 hard. That would make a lot of fun.
Provincial still have some error in QS but it is not higher than 1-2 degree, which for me isnt noticable on fh at least.

H3 BS is a total different story. It is less linear, way more dynamic, less durable, and gives a completely different feeling, especially boosted. And it has lower tolerance for errors.
So i can somewhat understand Tonys reaction. You are simply warming up old topics because you got new insight from some amateurs who run a shop. But by now you should actually know, that ppls reviews wont give much insight on how you gonna play with that setup. In TT there are way to many factors that change everything the moment you change one of them.
On top of that, one review is such a ridiculous low evidence that i simply cant comprehend how you can focus so much on this simple video.

Hey Attitude
I tried not to engage, but the misinformation just keep showing up - and you right.

There is just so many things I can talk about.. ie
H3 #22 organic vs H3 #22 non-organic is also different.
DHS produce them in different sponge specs too.

Personally, I use non-organic more and prepare my sponge with glue then booster.
Oh, did I just mentioned about the technicality that will alter how the rubber plays? I kindof did that on purpose. 🤭

my next video will be on R9, so hang in there

 

[TensorBackhand]

why are you even EJing then, just slap two H3s (commercial) on your blade...

Because I like to find rubbers thag play a bit different. A little more exciting or unique

 

[TensorBackhand]

I should tell the entire Chinese national team that Michael /TB suggest they should just slap commercials on.
I guess he also believes when Butterfly sales their pros use commerical tenergy

since my source is hot air ,and his source is youtube, his must be right!

Hey, since you think there is such a big difference, why dont you blindly test 5 commercial H3 and 5 national H3.

Then guess which one is which. This will objectively prove if you are right or wrong in there being a big difference.

My belief is that I personally would not be able to pick accurately. Im guessing 95% of players on this forum would not be able to guess reliably.

But can you do it?

Also, if you switched H3 commercial to FZD, he would still be beating all the non-Chinese players. If you switched Butterfly pros equipment to the standard butterfly rubbers, they would still play about the same. I think you are exaggerating the difference.

 

[Attitude]

Hey Attitude
I tried not to engage, but the misinformation just keep showing up - and you right.

There is just so many things I can talk about.. ie
H3 #22 organic vs H3 #22 non-organic is also different.
DHS produce them in different sponge specs too.

Personally, I use non-organic more and prepare my sponge with glue then booster.
Oh, did I just mentioned about the technicality that will alter how the rubber plays? I kindof did that on purpose. 🤭

my next video will be on R9, so hang in there

True but you need to differentiate how much these differences matter.
For example the differences of how you boost are really not high enough to meassure them propperly and give a decent objective result on how much you changed the characteristics of the rubber. And in the end it all comes down to personal preference. I highly doubt that FZD boosts his H3s the same way than WCQ.

Actually therefore im totally down for another H3 alternative because imo there is not really a good one right now. Especially not an affordable H3 BS alternative. Imo LAC is at least somewhat in between a boosted H3 (BS) and D09c and i am really glad i got back to using it.

Any info at hand when R9 will be released into the public?

 

[Attitude]

Hey, since you think there is such a big difference, why dont you blindly test 5 commercial H3 and 5 national H3.

Then guess which one is which. This will objectively prove if you are right or wrong in there being a big difference.

My belief is that I personally would not be able to pick accurately. Im guessing 95% of players on this forum would not be able to guess reliably.

But can you do it?

Also, if you switched H3 commercial to FZD, he would still be beating all the non-Chinese players. If you switched Butterfly pros equipment to the standard butterfly rubbers, they would still play about the same. I think you are exaggerating the difference.

That is exactly what i mean by annyoing.
Why do you insist so much on your own speculations and the lowest evidence there is on a single subject?!

And i would highly doubt FZD would remain TOP 10 of the world with H3 commercial^^
Every FH shot would be weaker, more predictable, less spinny. So the only chance he would have, is to focus on playing mostly over his bh.

Btw how can you be so ignorant and forget or neglect every knowledge you got provided through this forum alone and defend one single information you got from a video?

 

[TensorBackhand]

That is exactly what i mean by annyoing.
Why do you insist so much on your own speculations and the lowest evidence there is on a single subject?!

And i would highly doubt FZD would remain TOP 10 of the world with H3 commercial^^
Every FH shot would be weaker, more predictable, less spinny. So the only chance he would have, is to focus on playing mostly over his bh.

Btw how can you be so ignorant and forget or neglect every knowledge you got provided through this forum alone and defend one single information you got from a video?

I've never seen the "evidence" to the contrary that you are claiming.

Where is the evidence that FZD would see a big drop in play if he switched to H3 commercial? My opinion right now is that he would not drop very much, but I would change my opinion if the evidence showed me otherwise.

Where is the evidence that average players could blindly differentiate H3 commercial and national? please show that to me. The existing evidence is that TT11 guys cannot distinguish. If the evidence changes, my opinion would change.

I'm not the one speculating, you are the one speculating as you have no provided any evidence.

I would be happy to put up $500 in a friendly wager if you could reliably distinguish.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Hey, since you think there is such a big difference, why dont you blindly test 5 commercial H3 and 5 national H3.

Then guess which one is which. This will objectively prove if you are right or wrong in there being a big difference.

My belief is that I personally would not be able to pick accurately. Im guessing 95% of players on this forum would not be able to guess reliably.

But can you do it?

Also, if you switched H3 commercial to FZD, he would still be beating all the non-Chinese players. If you switched Butterfly pros equipment to the standard butterfly rubbers, they would still play about the same. I think you are exaggerating the difference.

I can't remember how many years I used commercial #20 H3
I used to change rubbers every month.
I moved over to #22 H3 Provincial and then National
Of all the rubbers I know, I know H3 the best.

$500 is too cheap for me to entertain your wish
up it to $5000, excluding cost of the 10 rubbers, and I will take up your bet for a blindly test.
In fact, to save you money, just glue 1 of each on each side and I can test between the two sides and tell you.

Oh wait, the sponge colour is different...
or do you want me to lower down from the proper H3 to the orange one?
or how we going to play your game?

honestly speaking Michael, every H3 user in the boys team can blindly test it and get a result that will make you cry. Should we do $500 and I find 10 juniors and each get $500?
make it x 11, as I want some $$$ too.

should I hide the sponge with tape? lol

Or does that $500 don't apply to me?

Last time I see someone offering money to test rubbers on this forum was someone who got banned dozens of times.
I thought if the money is high enough, I can drive to Lin Yun-Ju when he is back from Korea.
But then again, his contract with Butterfly would make him say no to your child's play.

Maybe I can choose any WR Chinese Taipei player that isn't contractually silenced? $5000 and we have a deal

 

[mattlamperouge]

Hey Matt, I often lookup this table you posted. It seems quite detailed and everything, but I'm not 100% sure and still have some doubts.

GTX and T3 both are listed as having the same N01 sponge, but I find that they react very differently to booster. GTX has a huge reaction, T3 not so much.

Rxton 7 supposedly has the same sponge as Rxton 3 pink? That seems kinda underwhelming if its true.

well its just the specs they list, in reality the rubbers & sponge feel & look different. Maybe is an internal thing and they adjust? i share for people that is curious & like to nerd out or speculate with data but its probably more confusing to take it literal since real world experience feels different.

 

[Attitude]

I've never seen the "evidence" to the contrary that you are claiming.

Why would i need evidence to point out your ignorance? I mean you are just bullshitting around on the base of a video from an amateur who runs a TT-store. Congratulations. Why should i bother furthermore at this point?

Where is the evidence that FZD would see a big drop in play if he switched to H3 commercial? My opinion right now is that he would not drop very much, but I would change my opinion if the evidence showed me otherwise.

Common sense is the evidence. If you give a pro different equipment, than he is used to play with, then he will definitly play worse. How much worse is hard to say. But being convinced that he nearly plays as good as with his usual equipment is beyond me, and damn ignorant again.

Where is the evidence that average players could blindly differentiate H3 commercial and national? please show that to me. The existing evidence is that TT11 guys cannot distinguish. If the evidence changes, my opinion would change.

I never said that at all, therefore i dont need evidence for it. Especially because i said AGAIN!!!!!!! the main differences between commercial and other versions of H3 OS. So it is even possible to get the same quality rubber, as you would get if you paid for provincial or national version. But it is a chance and not a guarentee.

Besides that, you bullshittet around that there is no meassurable difference between those rubber and used the video from TT11 as evidence. Sorry but if this is the level you want to discuss things, im done here.

I'm not the one speculating, you are the one speculating as you have no provided any evidence.

I would be happy to put up $500 in a friendly wager if you could reliably distinguish.

How are you not speculating. The only thing you are doing is asking questions and speculating the entire time...

And i am not your google assistant. If you want prove for the mentioned subjects search for yourself on google or on this forum. On top i even answered many many many questions and speculations of yours.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

That is exactly what i mean by annyoing.
Why do you insist so much on your own speculations and the lowest evidence there is on a single subject?!

And i would highly doubt FZD would remain TOP 10 of the world with H3 commercial^^
Every FH shot would be weaker, more predictable, less spinny. So the only chance he would have, is to focus on playing mostly over his bh.

Btw how can you be so ignorant and forget or neglect every knowledge you got provided through this forum alone and defend one single information you got from a video?

At some point, people are going to have to realize that, either MZ (TensorBH) is a bit of a troll, or he is really just unable to process certain information.....like, to me....it seems he may be a bit on the spectrum sort of like BB but without the technical education.

I mean, it is okay. There are plenty of people who, in a certain area are fairly highly functional and perform well, but they have tunnel vision and can't understand how things that are based on how they see things, or experience things, are just not how the rest of the world sees or experiences things.

I mean, there are plenty of times I have heard someone describe a rubber and thought, "that is not at all how that rubber felt or performed for me." And then that person comes out with statements like: "why don't all the pros use the BH rubber that I feel works best for me," and you kind of scratch your head and wonder which circuit isn't processing properly.

 

[TensorBackhand]

I can't remember how many years I used commercial #20 H3
I used to change rubbers every month.
I moved over to #22 H3 Provincial and then National
Of all the rubbers I know, I know H3 the best.

$500 is too cheap for me to entertain your wish
up it to $5000, excluding cost of the 10 rubbers, and I will take up your bet for a blindly test.
In fact, to save you money, just glue 1 of each on each side and I can test between the two sides and tell you.

Oh wait, the sponge colour is different...
or do you want me to lower down from the proper H3 to the orange one?
or how we going to play your game?

honestly speaking Michael, every H3 user in the boys team can blindly test it and get a result that will make you cry. Should we do $500 and I find 10 juniors and each get $500?
make it x 11, as I want some $$$ too.

should I hide the sponge with tape? lol

Well like I said, if you show me the evidence, I would change my opinion.

Why would i need evidence to point out your ignorance? I mean you are just bullshitting around on the base of a video from an amateur who runs a TT-store. Congratulations. Why should i bother furthermore at this point?

Common sense is the evidence. If you give a pro different equipment, than he is used to play with, then he will definitly play worse. How much worse is hard to say. But being convinced that he nearly plays as good as with his usual equipment is beyond me, and damn ignorant again.


I never said that at all, therefore i dont need evidence for it. Especially because i said AGAIN!!!!!!! the main differences between commercial and other versions of H3 OS. So it is even possible to get the same quality rubber, as you would get if you paid for provincial or national version. But it is a chance and not a guarentee.

Besides that, you bullshittet around that there is no meassurable difference between those rubber and used the video from TT11 as evidence. Sorry but if this is the level you want to discuss things, im done here.


How are you not speculating. The only thing you are doing is asking questions and speculating the entire time...

And i am not your google assistant. If you want prove for the mentioned subjects search for yourself on google or on this forum. On top i even answered many many many questions and speculations of yours.

I think you told me you are around 1900 or 2000 USATT.
Those TT11 players are better than you are...
And by a lot

 

[hclnnkhg]

well its just the specs they list, in reality the rubbers & sponge feel & look different. Maybe is an internal thing and they adjust? i share for people that is curious & like to nerd out or speculate with data but its probably more confusing to take it literal since real world experience feels different.

I don't think even manufacturers fully understand how exactly blade, rubber and sponge all work together. They probably have some material property testing, some bounce/flight testing with a robot, some feedback from professional players. If they truly crack the code, Butterfly wouldn't need to have >200 topsheet models to get to Tenergy 19. It is just like other engineering, some theory + lots of experience.

 

[longle]

that is why I have been saying, the equipment review of 1 person is based on the technical ability limitation of that same person and in forums where people love to talk about equipment and sharing information on equipment to others, accuracy is going to be a problem (ie Hurricane 3 is not suited for penhold).

Like did TB actually feel QC differeces between the rubbers like he said, or did he just hear it from someone else, and just rebroadcasting it here (like what ERT will do)

Firstly, #20 and #22 is 2 different things.
Enough info should be out there, or we can ask Zeio to hyperlink it for you.
There is time line, ball change, booster, everything on how #22 came to be.

H3 national #22 is the gold standard for Chinese tacky rubbers.
Even Yinhe/729 sponsored players use it. I said it in the past, not even 729 or Yinhe can get a rubber close to H3 #22

Well, Rxton 9 to me is very close. I've used it for over a month now, and about to reboost and continue to study it. I'm not a TB kind of guy that will use a rubber for few minutes and move on to a dozen others. I'm a H3 user for a long long time. R9 really excites me, as it is probably the only rubber that I have tested for such a long time.

Since you mentioned Ma Long
I still remember taking that kids Ma Long rubbers on both sides and give it a few minutes try.
or just like any other national player I know who tried proper CNT rubbers.... our national and their national is not the same thing....

If any one thinks DHS seperate rubbers by QC and not by spec, is still in the 90s.
DHS QC is one of the best in TT equipment makers today and you can't deny that, no matter if it is high end balls, blades or rubbers, they are ahead, and people are trying to copy them.
They have become Butterfly, both product and attitude wise

Okay, I've reach my limit on talking unless info on TTD for the day.

I agree on the #22 part being the best, I've played TG3 #22 Blue Sponge and it's one of the best FH rubber I've used. Too bad its durability was horrible (I tried 2 sheets and they all lasted 2 weeks).

About this "H3 is not suited for penhold" part, I partly agree, because in my experience TG3 on my FH works better than H3 because it has lower throw, ideal for for full-swing looping. Maybe that's why Xu Xin, Ma Lin and Wang Hao have also used TG2/TG3 for quite a long time ?

I also very hyped about that Rxton9, if it's really on par with H3 NT

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Well like I said, if you show me the evidence, I would change my opinion.

Did you just back away from offering me money??
I'm going to bump the $500~$5500 discussion, so that can help me help you change your opinion