Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[OvrChkn]

Finally getting around to reading the responses from Monday. Thank you all for the input and I think now that I'm looking to practice 4-5 days a week, hopefully, I can correct some of the issues I've had.

Had a good practice yesterday and all of the soreness from playing so much during the weekend is thankfully gone. Playing a wider variety of players than my old club, so that's quite nice.

 

[TheProfessor]

Since I try to help adult learners play reasonably efficient table tennis based on the struggles I had as a learner, for those who don't want to move too much, one of the things I try to teach early is how to play with your backhand and your forehand out of a similar stance which requires you to play the forehand with hip rotation and the backhand with a reasonable elbow position. So you build a concept of a ready position into your play early to reduce the feeling of lack of connection between your various shots.

For me, this kind of thing tends to be more valuable than Falkenberg unless you really think you have forever to learn TT. Many players either favor or backhand too much because they practice forehand and backhand out of different foot positioning and then wonder why they are stuck using one or the other during matches. The footwork that connects this in ways that allow them to work in practice is more important from a psychological standpoint than any specific drill. And while one can work on two forehand- two backhand or one forehand- one backhand drills , one can do so without realizing the need for efficient use of stance and hips to reduce movement and footwork demands. Learning how to do this and respond efficiently to balls is much more match important if one is focused on match results over exercise.

Do you have a video demonstrating this efficient method? Thanks

 

[dingyibvs]

We live in the northern part of the valley of California. no humidity...just dry heat. Thankfully my garage doesn't face west so it does stay in the shade most of the day which also helps.

I still train in my garage twice a week. but with the robot....and the insulated garage door is closed lol. I want to try and figure out some sort of cooling system in there too......but i also want a new robot. and a baby on the way in december. idk if my wife will approve any of those purchases LOL

What kind of robot do you have now? I've been considering a mini-split system for the garage, but I'm thinking I should prioritize an eagle-eye system and then a new robot. I do the vast majority of my garage training late at night, and as you know the temp drops rapidly after sunset so heat is not an issue vast majority of the time. I also heat up quickly and sweat a lot, so practicing in 50's temp in the winter is fine with me too.

I'm going to China later this year, really hoping to buy the pongbot eagle eye system there! I'd love to see what speed and spin I can generate with different techniques, rubbers, blades, etc.

 

[dingyibvs]

Finally getting around to reading the responses from Monday. Thank you all for the input and I think now that I'm looking to practice 4-5 days a week, hopefully, I can correct some of the issues I've had.

Had a good practice yesterday and all of the soreness from playing so much during the weekend is thankfully gone. Playing a wider variety of players than my old club, so that's quite nice.

I just did some modified Falkenberg with a transition ball to the middle after the wide FH last night, really kicked my ass! Got my HR to 170, which has been rare in my solo garage training sessions lately.

 

[NextLevel]

Do you have a video demonstrating this efficient method? Thanks

This is the Dubina article on the subject from ancient times (though I didn't get all my original teaching from him and there are nuanced modifications for less athletic players). You don't do it at high speed immediately, you learn the strokes that make it possible, and get better and better doing it.

Stance | Samson Dubina Table Tennis Academy

www.samsondubina.com

He used to link to three pros, but now only one video is accessible.

 

[Der_Echte]

We live in the northern part of the valley of California. no humidity...just dry heat. Thankfully my garage doesn't face west so it does stay in the shade most of the day which also helps.

I still train in my garage twice a week. but with the robot....and the insulated garage door is closed lol. I want to try and figure out some sort of cooling system in there too......but i also want a new robot. and a baby on the way in december. idk if my wife will approve any of those purchases LOL

Hey @Jslick89 get with Kirk G... he installed a split A/C unit in Andy's garage and also in his garage (3 car garage he uses only for TT)

Split A/C units are very affordable and installation is not too crazy. An 18,000 BTU 22+ SEER rated unit is $1,100 at Home Depot with rebates available as one example. maybe you can bribe Kirk with a few cases of Diet Pepsi and getter dun.

Your garage is not as large as others and 12,000 BTU unit could work well too.

 

[dingyibvs]

This is the Dubina article on the subject from ancient times (though I didn't get all my original teaching from him and there are nuanced modifications for less athletic players). You don't do it at high speed immediately, you learn the strokes that make it possible, and get better and better doing it.

Stance | Samson Dubina Table Tennis Academy

www.samsondubina.com

He used to link to three pros, but now only one video is accessible.

I'm increasingly appreciative of compact swings from a neutral stance. As @Der_Echte can attest to, I can launch some haymakers with my FH, but as I play better players who can either block off the bounce or direct them to uncomfortable positions, I find it more and more difficult to deploy a big FH.

I've thus adjusted my training accordingly as well. I usually start off my FH warmups with increasing power at a comfortable 80/min frequency, but now at the end I add a section of high frequency (100/min) balls so that I must keep my motion compact. For my BH/FH transition training, like the first 2 balls of the Falkenberg, I'm also now trying to step around a little less so I can recover back to a neutral position quicker.

What I notice with these trainings is that while the stance shift is absent or smaller (in the case of pivots), the weight shift is still almost fully present and and body rotation still need to be present though in a smaller degree to ensure quality and consistency. It can't be an arm only shot, in other words.

 

[latej]

I'm increasingly appreciative of compact swings from a neutral stance. As @Der_Echte can attest to, I can launch some haymakers with my FH, but as I play better players who can either block off the bounce or direct them to uncomfortable positions, I find it more and more difficult to deploy a big FH.

I've thus adjusted my training accordingly as well. I usually start off my FH warmups with increasing power at a comfortable 80/min frequency, but now at the end I add a section of high frequency (100/min) balls so that I must keep my motion compact. For my BH/FH transition training, like the first 2 balls of the Falkenberg, I'm also now trying to step around a little less so I can recover back to a neutral position quicker.

What I notice with these trainings is that while the stance shift is absent or smaller (in the case of pivots), the weight shift is still almost fully present and and body rotation still need to be present though in a smaller degree to ensure quality and consistency. It can't be an arm only shot, in other words.

When doing Falkenberg, the 4 shot variant with 1 BH, when I don't step around properly - when I don't make enough space to hit properly, not only is the shot weaker, but also the balance and recovery is signif. slower and clumsier, and harder to get to the next hit - wide FH.

Similarly with the 3 shot variant. So I'd rather say I prefer to get more to the left there (right-hander), and "step around more". However I'm not sure if that also means "step around more" in your terminology...

 

[Jslick89]

What kind of robot do you have now? I've been considering a mini-split system for the garage, but I'm thinking I should prioritize an eagle-eye system and then a new robot. I do the vast majority of my garage training late at night, and as you know the temp drops rapidly after sunset so heat is not an issue vast majority of the time. I also heat up quickly and sweat a lot, so practicing in 50's temp in the winter is fine with me too.

I'm going to China later this year, really hoping to buy the pongbot eagle eye system there! I'd love to see what speed and spin I can generate with different techniques, rubbers, blades, etc.

I own my own Newgy 2055...but one of my club mates let me borrow his power pong 5000 (similar to the new model Power Pong Delta). It's a pretty good robot...does all the different spins during the same drill (unlike the newgy 2055).

The robot i want though is the Pong Bot Omni-S. I think its the best bang for the buck......

What is an eagle-eye system?

 

[NextLevel]

I'm increasingly appreciative of compact swings from a neutral stance. As @Der_Echte can attest to, I can launch some haymakers with my FH, but as I play better players who can either block off the bounce or direct them to uncomfortable positions, I find it more and more difficult to deploy a big FH.

I've thus adjusted my training accordingly as well. I usually start off my FH warmups with increasing power at a comfortable 80/min frequency, but now at the end I add a section of high frequency (100/min) balls so that I must keep my motion compact. For my BH/FH transition training, like the first 2 balls of the Falkenberg, I'm also now trying to step around a little less so I can recover back to a neutral position quicker.

What I notice with these trainings is that while the stance shift is absent or smaller (in the case of pivots), the weight shift is still almost fully present and and body rotation still need to be present though in a smaller degree to ensure quality and consistency. It can't be an arm only shot, in other words.

What you are saying is correct but such things are always level relative and I try to emphasize that because we need to be careful when teaching adult learners and embracing the "this is only good if it works for or looks like Ma Long or Fan Zhendong" mindset. Things like weight shifts and body rotation speak to the athleticism and strength and sometimes health (especially lower body and core/back) of the player. I try to incorporate it so that players can hit more powerful shots with smaller swings, but they aren't the only approaches, they just make you more advanced.

Compact and large stroking should be an adaptation to the time and power from the incoming ball tends to naturally occur if your game responds more to the incoming ball out of a single ready position feeling, rather than as a result of getting into position with fore knowledge of where the ball is going. It's one of the reasons why drills like Falkenberg where the balls are played in sequence can damage the ability to adapt in players because many players do them not by responding to the ball but by jumping into position based on foreknowledge of where the ball is going without any input to trigger such fore knowledge, which IMHO is a bad habit. Slower random drill or even slow multiball falkenberg with some randomness that forces the player to read and adapt in real time is much more useful for match skill development at the level I am usually coaching (which admittedly is below yours). There is a funny video of Zhang Jike trying to get a high level player not to pivot head of time after a short push so ZJK feeds balls both to the forehand and the backhand to see whether the player is waiting to respond or pivoting in advance. The player literally gives once this starts, because in addition to the difficulty of the drill (it is hard to get back into position without letting your momentum take you into the pivot so a bad habit is likely formed), most of his pivoting is too reliant on quality anticipation.

Long story short, you are right about the need to use the body somewhat, but what that means or looks like will differ from player to player to the point that it will not be even visible in the technique of some players. And all drills with a random placement element will require some stroke size modification as a bailout technique,

 

[OvrChkn]

I just did some modified Falkenberg with a transition ball to the middle after the wide FH last night, really kicked my ass! Got my HR to 170, which has been rare in my solo garage training sessions lately.

During that first coaching session, we did a lot of other drills to see where I'm at technique wise. I was suffering then and suffered even more when the Falkenberg was introduced!

Do you feel like the transition step helped or was it more intense since you had that extra step to worry about?

 

[dingyibvs]

When doing Falkenberg, the 4 shot variant with 1 BH, when I don't step around properly - when I don't make enough space to hit properly, not only is the shot weaker, but also the balance and recovery is signif. slower and clumsier, and harder to get to the next hit - wide FH.

Similarly with the 3 shot variant. So I'd rather say I prefer to get more to the left there (right-hander), and "step around more". However I'm not sure if that also means "step around more" in your terminology...

Well, you can step around a lot so you can play the shot as if you're doing the FH cross table from BH corner exercise. But I try to step around a little less than that. I step around enough to utilize body rotation for the shot, but my elbow is near my body so I don't have the space to do a full armed swing.

I own my own Newgy 2055...but one of my club mates let me borrow his power pong 5000 (similar to the new model Power Pong Delta). It's a pretty good robot...does all the different spins during the same drill (unlike the newgy 2055).

The robot i want though is the Pong Bot Omni-S. I think its the best bang for the buck......

What is an eagle-eye system?

Yeah I'm thinking about getting a Pongbot robot as well, probably the Halo for its flexibility in where to place it. The deflector mechanism used by my Amicus (I think it's the same for Power Pong) introduces a ton of unwanted sidespin and it really annoys me.

An eagle-eye system tracks the balls you hit, gives you some information like speed, placement, etc. I'm trying to find more info on the Pongbot one to see if it's worth buying or if I should wait for a 2nd generation system. I'd like to be able to track spin as well and I'm not sure if it can currently.

 

[Silver Server]

Do most of you all train AND play with the same setup, or do you have different setups for each? I know a lot of people have 3-4 different bats. Just wondering how that works out lol.

Right now I have 2 different setups that are somewhat similar, but I feel like switching between them affects my game a little when I know it’s more of a technique issue.

 

[NextLevel]

Do most of you all train AND play with the same setup, or do you have different setups for each? I know a lot of people have 3-4 different bats. Just wondering how that works out lol.

Right now I have 2 different setups that are somewhat similar, but I feel like switching between them affects my game a little when I know it’s more of a technique issue.

Play and train with the same set up. No reason to do otherwise unless you are coaching and feed a lot of multiball and do not want to wear our your primary setup.

 

[dingyibvs]

During that first coaching session, we did a lot of other drills to see where I'm at technique wise. I was suffering then and suffered even more when the Falkenberg was introduced!

Do you feel like the transition step helped or was it more intense since you had that extra step to worry about?

I think the transition step helps. If you look at the pros play in slowmo, they never stop bouncing on their feet. Even if you're not actually moving, hopping in place helps to load your legs to move quickly. I use it in training when I have the ball frequency set high. It can feel a little awkward at our level of match play as the play is slower and it feels like you're bouncing forever between shots, but whenever I remember to do it it really helps me in reacting to shots quicker.

 

[NextLevel]

I think the transition step helps. If you look at the pros play in slowmo, they never stop bouncing on their feet. Even if you're not actually moving, hopping in place helps to load your legs to move quickly. I use it in training when I have the ball frequency set high. It can feel a little awkward at our level of match play as the play is slower and it feels like you're bouncing forever between shots, but whenever I remember to do it it really helps me in reacting to shots quicker.

Transition steps to retain balance and reduce inertia are not always conscious things. But the fitter you are and the more you play with your legs and need to rebalance after powerful shots, something like this becomes inevitable once the level of play happens at an extremely challenging speed for movement while reading the game, because ypu need a lot of sterngth to move out of certain positions and get into balancr to play other shots. But it isn't always as conscious as many amateurs think it is when they watch pros play, it is often just the outcome of years of training footwork and evolving into what works best.

I don't step or jump because I have knee pain but I rock on both feet to preserve spring. But I do have a lot of work to do on defending my middle and learning to attack the opponents middle - probably too late in my TT for this but I will give it a shot anyways. Even in tennis, the split step is a big deal before the point starts. There was a whole thread about tbr batsuju step recently that made it a huge rebalanced technique. But I am still of the opinion that other than for initial motion to break inertia before the point starts, the rest is largely unconscious and the evolutionary result of a lot of footwork drills.

 

[OvrChkn]

I think the transition step helps. If you look at the pros play in slowmo, they never stop bouncing on their feet. Even if you're not actually moving, hopping in place helps to load your legs to move quickly. I use it in training when I have the ball frequency set high. It can feel a little awkward at our level of match play as the play is slower and it feels like you're bouncing forever between shots, but whenever I remember to do it it really helps me in reacting to shots quicker.

I like bouncing on serve to try to get myself ready for motion. I'm spent by my third best of 5 match doing this though.

I used to have a channel saved where an Asian man spent each video towards understanding how you start your first step in motion and how that's applicable towards each athletic movement.

 

[Der_Echte]

I'm increasingly appreciative of compact swings from a neutral stance. As @Der_Echte can attest to, I can launch some haymakers with my FH, but as I play better players who can either block off the bounce or direct them to uncomfortable positions, I find it more and more difficult to deploy a big FH.

I've thus adjusted my training accordingly as well. I usually start off my FH warmups with increasing power at a comfortable 80/min frequency, but now at the end I add a section of high frequency (100/min) balls so that I must keep my motion compact. For my BH/FH transition training, like the first 2 balls of the Falkenberg, I'm also now trying to step around a little less so I can recover back to a neutral position quicker.

What I notice with these trainings is that while the stance shift is absent or smaller (in the case of pivots), the weight shift is still almost fully present and and body rotation still need to be present though in a smaller degree to ensure quality and consistency. It can't be an arm only shot, in other words.

I am glad that you "get it" about sometime using too long motions as default or using excess motion when it is not needed... that having reliable compact strokes is a combat multiplier.

SOMETIMES...it CAN be about the arm or the hand... sometimes you just need to get the bat there and do the rest with your grip... and maybe a tiny wrist/arm movement, not much. Tiny movement with big grip firm at impact can really shoot that ball out and do damage...

... opponents do not see any stroke, but you sent the ball at a good pace... many not ready for that or do not adjust in time.

 

[Der_Echte]

Loving the Aurus Soft on my backhand as well!
I currently use Butterfly Kenta Matsudaira ALC
FH: Double Fish Dragon Shadow Spin
BH: Tibhar Aurus Soft!

Happy to hear you are doing well with Aurus Soft on BH !!

That rubber does just about everything very well... like a 95 out of 100 on everything. Very versatile rubber that makes most everything easier.

 

[Der_Echte]

Do most of you all train AND play with the same setup, or do you have different setups for each? I know a lot of people have 3-4 different bats. Just wondering how that works out lol.

Right now I have 2 different setups that are somewhat similar, but I feel like switching between them affects my game a little when I know it’s more of a technique issue.

This is a fair question and my response would be similar to Next Level.

Where I may be different is that I can say that 2 of the same blades same factory made from same piece of wood same tree same section will differ and never be exact. This may be splitting hairs or magnifying the pic to show the hairs on a gnat's azz... but it is important to know so you have reasonable expectations.

I advocate to practice and play with same bat/rubber... and change the rubbers one week or two sessions before an important tourney comp.