Countering heavy top challenge

[Wrighty67]

Played this guy last week and will be meeting him again. Very unconventional but very effective - heavy/high topspin on everything long enough (and some nasty backspin fake loops)
I’m normally ok countering but could not get on top of this - how would you deal with it?

 

[Scarfed Garchomp]

Played this guy last week and will be meeting him again. Very unconventional but very effective - heavy/high topspin on everything long enough (and some nasty backspin fake loops)
I’m normally ok countering but could not get on top of this - how would you deal with it?

What does this guy do if you just serve long and fast? Seemed in these few points you were just feeding him his bread and butter.

 

[K.K]

if it goes out then you just didn’t close the racket enough. also countering is a way harder stroke, try blocking first but same principle

 

[Robin0910]

The opponent’s serves are so illegal. He doesn’t throw the ball up high enough. Why is the umpire there?
Back to your question, try to block first with a closed racket angle perhaps to one of the corners or his middle. It seemed like the guy didn’t like using his backhand so try hitting there.

 

[Jslick89]

The opponent’s serves are so illegal. He doesn’t throw the ball up high enough. Why is the umpire there?
Back to your question, try to block first with a closed racket angle perhaps to one of the corners or his middle. It seemed like the guy didn’t like using his backhand so try hitting there.

my first thought too. I would literally just call let on all of his serves until he fixes his illegal toss. ball is going up maybe 2-3 inches max.

 

[Jslick89]

Also, from what i saw, it looks like your paddle is pretty open when you try to block and your pushing forward. Try closing the paddle a little bit and adding a slight downward push to your block. That's how i block some of the heaviest topspin shots that come my way.

 

[Jslick89]

Shot at 12 seconds: This one you tried counter but if you look at your torso you are almost leaning back. I'm not an expert but it looks like you side stepped but maybe if you side stepped half a step backwards along with your side step you would have been in a better position to lean forward and swing through instead of leaning back or being straight up.

Shot at 43 seconds: this stroke was all arm. also you were moving backwards at the point of contact. no power generation and shot goes straight into the net. was this one of those underspin shots you were talking about? i couldn't tell but i wasn't seeing the body mechanics to counter loop a top spin or loop an underspin shot.

shot at 57 seconds: also leaning back / moving backwards at the point of contact. with this heavy top spin shots you have to be hinged forward at the hips or those balls will go flying off the table when you return. especially with an open paddle.

shot at 1min19 seconds: open paddle. by now you should pick up on the pattern that a majority of his loopy balls are going to be coming to your forehand. still be prepared for the backhand but this is where most of them are coming. take a bigger hop/step to the right and get your paddle completely over this balls. if you want to block push down if you want to counter keep paddle closed and swing forward. moving sideways and trying to stroke this ball with your torso straight up will not work!

your last shot on his high lob: nice smash but you didn't recover after. thats why he caught you with your hand in your pocket. watch at .75 speed. you were watching your shot the whole time instead of watching your shot+ moving your feet into a new ready position.

 

[NetProphet]

I agree with Jslick there, I thought you looked a bit passive and were often slow to get ready.
As his shots are slow spinny loops there's lots of time (relatively) to prepare so you have no reason not to be on your feet and in position.
Then you will hit better strokes.
Weight fwd and hitting through the ball, either counter loop or drive, both can work but I drive counter usually.
On BH I find the punch block is very effective against this type of shot.
To block you need a flatter racket angle. Your first block at 12 seconds shows appx 45° angle, you need almost half of that, appx 25°.
Then it's a question of blocking short (passively) or leaning into and pushing down slightly to active block and pick your spot. Again, there's not so much pace on the ball so picking your spot is important when you have this time and use it to make him move.
Advice from a still lots to learn intermediate but they're shots that have worked for me in the past.
Btw there's a player in my lge who does the same serves. Aggghhhh

 

[Ghostzen]

Be interesting to see the whole match...

Did you change tactics or find any holes at all?.

 

[Wrighty67]

Be interesting to see the whole match...

Did you change tactics or find any holes at all?.

Funnily enough I played him again tonight! Still struggled with blocking the loop but found ways to minimise his use - he beat me 12-10 in the bloody fifth game after I’d been 9-7 up serving!

 

[Der_Echte]

Hi Wrighty,

I looked at the vid of the one game shown. (I am like Ghosten want to see the whole match)

Where your opponent looped slow and heavy... and where you tried to counter it... most of the time the ball landed way more shallow (closer to the net on your side first bounce) than you anticipated... when you tried to counter, often the ball was falling... and when you do that - you are not gunna make it. ball will be too low too far in front.

With a slow/heavy loop, the horizontal space you can position yourself and still have ball come to strike zone at a hittable height is very small, like maybe a foot. You position yourself further than that optimal space it is exponentially harder to successfully counter.

So judging where the top of bounce ball will go where and when is uber important... so that you can get position and leverage on the ball.

We can talk about HOW to counter... and that is easy enough to articulate the technical aspects of the shot itself... but reading where the ball top of bounce will be when is a difficult skill to acquire.

Countering is only a matter of getting the center of bat to top of bounce height (with ball coming to center of strike zone at a hittable height), close bat the right amount, and have swing go forward with either light grip or firming at impact. (also possible to hookshot get on side a little to avoid spin axis too)

With this guy, you just have to notice that he is landing the ball way shorter that you think... so adjust by going forward with your position more than you think... sometimes the right depth is to impact ball over end line or in front of endline over table if the ball bounce is real shallow on your side. (He is bouncing it pretty high and it is an easy counter if you set position well)

 

[pong99]

 

[blahness]

If you use arm to control the ball it is very hard, you have to use your body to control the topspin especially using the upper body to 'hug' the ball - this will create a lot more stability.

But the biggest problem is that you are pushing long serves and also serving long, thus giving up the 1st attack. If you dont want to deal with giving up the 1st attack against this guy just serve long to his wide BH - obviously he doesnt have a BH loop. Or serve actual double bounce short serves. On receive, you should not push all these long serves - go for the 1st opening loop. Even fake loops (by just lifting the ball) are better than pushing it.

 

[Der_Echte]

As for this opponent's serve... hugely clearly ILLEGAL.

He moves ball and hand upwards, then lets go of ball... the ball is projected upwards maximum 1-2 inches. This is so damn easy to make variety of serve difficult to discern. much more difficult to project ball upwards minimum 6 inches to the height that guy likes and do the same thing.

UNACCEPTABLE.

The dude behind the scoreboard is a scorekeeper, not an umpire unless someone can convince me otherwise. He is not showing the knowledge, will, or actions of an umpire. (I am a certified umpire BTW) (but it does not require anyone to be certified as an umpire to be able to clearly understand the laws of TT and see what is wrong)

If Der_Echte was playing in this league, somebody and some LARGE quantity of somebody is not gunna like Der_Echte after I get done ripping them a new one for blatant, egregious ignorance and application of the laws of TT.

If that dude can serve like that illegally, then FINE... it is now OK for me to serve illegally... and I will do the illegal serves better and nastier than opponent... illegal fingertip serves with unpredictable heavy spin... or wet ball serves or serve right outta hand... that is all illegal. Why is it OK for my opponent to be illegal and not me? I will equalize it by making him be legal or if needed, then I do not follow serve laws of tt either, I do not care.

Actually, I care and would prefer we both were legal, but if opponent absolutely refuses to play legally, then I am not restricted either. (after I point it out and fairness of laws of tt is ignored)

Opponent not gunna pull illegal serve crap like that on me unless I allow it and for some good reason do not care to make opponent serve legally.

 

[Der_Echte]

WHERE and WHAT CIRCUMSTANCE would Der_Echte not pursue opponent serving legally?

Practice
Friendly
Church
Sanctioned tourney match where I know I have already been eliminated from advancing and there is no profit from forcing things. (and I also want live sanctioned match practice reps facing illegal serves)

 

[blahness]

As for this opponent's serve... hugely clearly ILLEGAL.

He moves ball and hand upwards, then lets go of ball... the ball is projected upwards maximum 1-2 inches. This is so damn easy to make variety of serve difficult to discern. much more difficult to project ball upwards minimum 6 inches to the height that guy likes and do the same thing.

UNACCEPTABLE.

The dude behind the scoreboard is a scorekeeper, not an umpire unless someone can convince me otherwise. He is not showing the knowledge, will, or actions of an umpire. (I am a certified umpire BTW) (but it does not require anyone to be certified as an umpire to be able to clearly understand the laws of TT and see what is wrong)

If Der_Echte was playing in this league, somebody and some LARGE quantity of somebody is not gunna like Der_Echte after I get done ripping them a new one for blatant, egregious ignorance and application of the laws of TT.

If that dude can serve like that illegally, then FINE... it is now OK for me to serve illegally... and I will do the illegal serves better and nastier than opponent... illegal fingertip serves with unpredictable heavy spin... or wet ball serves or serve right outta hand... that is all illegal. Why is it OK for my opponent to be illegal and not me? I will equalize it by making him be legal or if needed, then I do not follow serve laws of tt either, I do not care.

Actually, I care and would prefer we both were legal, but if opponent absolutely refuses to play legally, then I am not restricted either. (after I point it out and fairness of laws of tt is ignored)

Opponent not gunna pull illegal serve crap like that on me unless I allow it and for some good reason do not care to make opponent serve legally.

This is actually still tossed somewhat vertically, I would be happy to receive it personally. That day I played a guy who literally throws the ball horizontally into his paddle to create some gigantic weird spin serves, plus he was actually hiding it a bit. Unfortunately it was only for fun so I didnt wanna make a big mess. Next time I play him i will use my anti setup to really mess him up LOL...

 

[Wrighty67]

Thank you all for such good advice and support. Those are really tricky balls in the heat of a match, but BH long serves, looping his serves to my FH and moving him better all helped (he had a sore hamstring to be fair and I also had 3 edge balls) but losing 12-10 in the 5th is a big improvement. Next time…

 

[Der_Echte]

This is actually still tossed somewhat vertically, I would be happy to receive it personally. That day I played a guy who literally throws the ball horizontally into his paddle to create some gigantic weird spin serves, plus he was actually hiding it a bit. Unfortunately it was only for fun so I didnt wanna make a big mess. Next time I play him i will use my anti setup to really mess him up LOL...

Hi blahness,

I get it, that player DOES toss the ball vertical, but it is only projected upwards 1-2 inches... and for the type of serve he is doing, it makes it WAY easier to do and provides an unfair advantage in excess of the expected advantage a serve is supposed to give you support an immediate offensive advantage.

In 2024, there is NO WAY that cat doesn't know the laws of TT. it is like saying a 55 yr old uncle or auntie does not know the rules of the road and drives a car every day or week. That means he is snake shyt low on the scale of TT integrity until he repents of his wickedness.

 

[Der_Echte]

Of course I am making a huge assumption that England copies and pastes ITTF rules for the amateur organized play... if that is the case, then Der_Echte is a huge azz dumbo jumbo loudmouth and owes all of England an apology.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Played this guy last week and will be meeting him again. Very unconventional but very effective - heavy/high topspin on everything long enough (and some nasty backspin fake loops)
I’m normally ok countering but could not get on top of this - how would you deal with it?

What a coincidence! I just had a similar discussion on this matter with my local coach hence the discussion is still fresh in my mind. The discussion as follows:

1. A top-spin loop has a lot of top-spin and when it hits the table, it tends to kick up.
2. If one were to block, the angle has to be almost flat.
3. The wrist has to be soft. Think of a hydraulic shock absorber that dampens the kicking effect.
4. Then I asked him about counter-looping? I don't want to be the regular 95% OB player, I want to kick some serious arse!
5. As for that, he said, footwork. Footwork as in you need to have a nifty forward and reverse footwork. The kick-effect is strong and if one wishes to counter-loop, one needs to step back to a comfortable distance where one has to rely on one's own judgement based on his personal preference. Once you are at a comfortable distance, then you can counter-loop it after the kick effect has dropped significantly.
6. That is why point No. 5 is not for the 95% OB player as it takes a certain amount of skill to pull it off.