Blade sealing w968 help

[UpSideDownCarl]

Really appreciate the knowledge and wisdom here, I’ve got Minwax poly oil warm satin on the way same as picture! I noticed there’s different types - warm gloss, warm satin or clear gloss, does this matter?

Gloss means it is shinier and the surface is more smooth. Satin means the surface has a sheen that is not as shiny or as smooth. I feel like satin lets the rubbers stick to the surface better because there is more surface area. But either is fine. The real difference is in how it looks and how the surface looks makes no difference if there is a rubber on top of the surface.

BTW: It is true the oil based poly's, the solvent is a VOC so it is worth sealing in a well ventilated area. My thought process is that, if you were using VOC solvents on a daily basis, they do have some harmful effects. But if you do it once, or once in a blue moon, then it is really not an issue. So, if you were sealing lots of furniture, or doing that on a regular basis, like if you were a carpenter or made furniture for a living, then, from the standpoint of health, water based would kind of make sense even if it was not as good for the furniture.

One more detail: in a lot of places, you hear people list that they put TWO layers of sealant on. For furniture that makes a lot of sense. You may even put THREE layers on. For a TT blade, you should not need more than ONE thin layer.

When you wipe this stuff on with a cloth, you can see that the surface of the wood is covered. If the surface is covered and they layer is thin, THAT IS ALL YOU NEED FOR A TT BLADE. That will keep the wood from splintering, and it will keep water from sinking in more than well enough.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Huge fan of wipe on poly.

But a few things I disagree with here. Water based wipe on poly water evaporates in like a few minutes, that's kinda the point of it. So I don't think there's a problem there. If you're fine with much more grams of water entering a blade over the course of hours through humidity and sweat on an unsealed blade, then a few minutes on a blade face should be a few orders of magnitude less harmful.

Also, the only time I left a blade unsealed was because it was koto because I thought harder plies wouldn't splinter. Well, it splintered on the first rubber change. I no longer believe koto is safe from splintering. If the grains are aligned with the direction you're pulling the rubber, and the wood already had poor density for some reason, it will splinter.

I like the oil based stuff. I am okay if you and others like the water based stuff. Even that small amount, I personally don't want to put directly on the top ply of my blade face. We are all adults. You guys can decide for yourselves.

When I play, water does not sink into the blade face. I am not sure how that happens for you. But that is okay.

Sweat does seep into the handle. But I am pretty confident it doesn't creep into the blade face. The handle dries out long before that could possibly happen.

I like to seal my blades as well. The point of the idea of blades with harder plies and not sealing, I know enough people who use Koto top ply blades who don't seal. That is their choice. I am okay with them making that choice. The one person on this thread saying the people recommending to seal are "plebes" is using a blade with a Koto top ply. It is fine for him not to seal. And if you or I used the same blade, we might choose to seal for our own reasons. I would to prevent water from the water based glues to seep into the top ply and, over time, make the blade play a little more dully.

One of the reasons I don't want to seal a blade with water based sealant is, REGARDLESS of how fast it seems that the water will evaporate, some of that water will sink into and be absorbed by the wood. Wood grains are designed to conduct liquid so that a tree gets nurishement. I personally, don't want the sealant to seal in, even that tiny bit of moisture.

One of the reason old, old wood blades feel so good when you play them is that, over the course of years, the wood dries out and the feeling becomes crisper (as long as you are not putting water based glue directly on a naked wood surface over and over again). But the water based glues is why blades from the WBG era feel duller as they get older instead.

The two blades I tried that felt better than any other blades I ever tried were a Clipper from 1990 and an Avalox P700 from 1991. Those blades felt so crisp and alive. And part of why is, water based glue never touch the blade face.

Information can be useful. How you use it is up to you.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Years ago, I filmed the video in this thread with @Der_Echte. This is me sealing a blade with Minwax Wipe On Poly and how long it took.

https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/the-upsidedown-method-of-sealing-your-blade.15836/

This process is really simple and there is, in my opinion, no reason to complicate things.

I hope the video also helps, so here, I will link the video here as well so you don't have to bore yourself with another thread covering such a similar subject:

One detail, back then, I would seal the edges. These days, I like leaving the edge unsealed so if any water did get into the blade, it could evaporate out and the wood can age and dry out a little more normally.

But that is also a choice. If I damage the edge of a blade, I will seal that area. I don't usually do much else to "fix" the damaged area. I just seal it after removing stuff that isn't going to stay on. And I seal that part so it does not splinter further.

Either option is fine in my opinion. Water will still get out over LONG periods of time. It just will get out more slowly.

Like how Gortex lets your moisture evaporate out through the pores but won't let water poured on the surface enter.

 

[riemsesy]

Would you take a damp sponge and brush it across the blade face so you got a tiny layer of water on your blade? Would you do that on purpose?

I see no reason to do that ever. Especially when the only thing that is INCONVENIENT about the OIL BASED product is that it takes a little longer to dry. I can wait 12 hours for the sealant to dry. And I feel like the original oil based versions actually work better.

Regarding the water-based stuff, many people have been gluing their blades with water-based glue for years without any detrimental effect on the blade. Now, we apply one thin layer of water-based polyurethane on the blade, and after that, the wood isn’t exposed to water for the rest of its life. Do you see the point?

Why would I brush a wooden blade with water only? If that’s the way to apply one layer of polyurethane that evaporates in a few minutes (I wonder if the water even penetrates the wood), I would do it.

But we are getting into the nitty-gritty here, and I think it just doesn’t matter. Water-based, oil-based… it’s all fine.

And about the feeling:

Okay, we have some blade makers here. I’ve made some classical guitars, so I know something about wood and finish. Many guitars are finished with polyurethane. Is it the best? No. Do you hear a difference? Maybe. The best is no finish, but that’s not good for the instrument. Then comes shellac, and then polyurethane and other oil-based finishes. And all guitars sound good.

I really do wonder if we could do a blind test with one type of blade, and then with the same rubbers but with different kinds of protection applied, to see if one would notice the difference during play. I think not.

It seems so weird that we would make a fuss about a very thin (not thick) protection layer when we are applying multiple glue layers, booster, and 2.2 mm thick rubbers afterward.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Regarding the water-based stuff, many people have been gluing their blades with water-based glue for years without any detrimental effect on the blade. Now, we apply one thin layer of water-based polyurethane on the blade, and after that, the wood isn’t exposed to water for the rest of its life. Do you see the point?

Why would I brush a wooden blade with water only? If that’s the way to apply one layer of polyurethane that evaporates in a few minutes (I wonder if the water even penetrates the wood), I would do it.

But we are getting into the nitty-gritty here, and I think it just doesn’t matter. Water-based, oil-based… it’s all fine.

And about the feeling:

Okay, we have some blade makers here. I’ve made some classical guitars, so I know something about wood and finish. Many guitars are finished with polyurethane. Is it the best? No. Do you hear a difference? Maybe. The best is no finish, but that’s not good for the instrument. Then comes shellac, and then polyurethane and other oil-based finishes. And all guitars sound good.

I really do wonder if we could do a blind test with one type of blade, and then with the same rubbers but with different kinds of protection applied, to see if one would notice the difference during play. I think not.

It seems so weird that we would make a fuss about a very thin (not thick) protection layer when we are applying multiple glue layers, booster, and 2.2 mm thick rubbers afterward.

It is okay for you to choose to use water based poly. I am fine with it.

I am simply explaining why I wouldn't. If I did seal tons of furniture, or thousands of blades, I would use water based, because the harmful fumes would be a more important issue to me. But, for 1 or 10 blades over the course of years, I personally would choose poly in an oil based solvent.

As far as WBG and blades, in 2012 when WBG was being used for several years and a good percentage of the top pros were playing from before WBG was the rule, several of those pros reported that their blades become duller and slower over time because of the WBG and so they change out their blades notably sooner than they used to in the VOC glue days.

You can test it. Take an inexpensive Chinese blade. Try it when new. Don't seal it. Every week take the rubbers off and reglue. Test it only after 6 months of this and see if the blade feels as good or not as good as when it was brand new. See if what the pros report about needing to change more frequently is accurate or not.

Invariably water may come in contact with your blade face over time. For me, if I can keep that to a minimum, I will be happy to do so, even if the amounts of water each time seem tiny from an intellectual perspective.

And, again, everyone on here is capable of making their own decisions. I am simply explaining why I have made mine.

Good luck whatever you choose.

 

[SDC]

So much misinformation here... It looks like I need to do a "how to seal your blade" tutorial

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

So much misinformation here... It looks like I need to do a "how to seal your blade" tutorial

I would enjoy seeing that.

 

[turbozed]

So much misinformation here... It looks like I need to do a "how to seal your blade" tutorial

Please!

 

[RefereeNumber2]

It seems to me that if you really wanted to make a highly durable blade, you could make it (or ask a blade-maker to make it) out of some kind of treated or "modified" wood: https://resawntimberco.com/what-is-modified-wood/. According to this page, "The modification process enhances the performance of the wood, resulting in improvements in the longevity of timbers – dimensional stability, decay resistance, reduced water absorption, less expansion/contraction, etc."

I imagine this would require some (perhaps substantial) adjustments to the blade composition because it seems like these materials are harder and stiffer (but not outrageously so) than the wood typically used in table tennis blades. It's also not clear to me whether these materials comply with the ITTF rules that blades be made out of "natural wood," although for the purposes of most people in this forum that doesn't seem like it would matter because it visually resembles wood closely enough.

 

[SlowPower]

Would you take a damp sponge and brush it across the blade face so you got a tiny layer of water on your blade? Would you do that on purpose?

Yes, why not? Wood is a very forgiving material and doesn't take damage if exposed to water for a short time.
Wood workers even do that before the first sanding because the tiny splinters stand up and the surface will then get smoother after sanding.

 

[riemsesy]

It is okay for you to choose to use water based poly. I am fine with it.

I am simply explaining why I wouldn't. If I did seal tons of furniture, or thousands of blades, I would use water based, because the harmful fumes would be a more important issue to me. But, for 1 or 10 blades over the course of years, I personally would choose poly in an oil based solvent.

As far as WBG and blades, in 2012 when WBG was being used for several years and a good percentage of the top pros were playing from before WBG was the rule, several of those pros reported that their blades become duller and slower over time because of the WBG and so they change out their blades notably sooner than they used to in the VOC glue days.

You can test it. Take an inexpensive Chinese blade. Try it when new. Don't seal it. Every week take the rubbers off and reglue. Test it only after 6 months of this and see if the blade feels as good or not as good as when it was brand new. See if what the pros report about needing to change more frequently is accurate or not.

Invariably water may come in contact with your blade face over time. For me, if I can keep that to a minimum, I will be happy to do so, even if the amounts of water each time seem tiny from an intellectual perspective.

And, again, everyone on here is capable of making their own decisions. I am simply explaining why I have made mine.

Good luck whatever you choose.

You take it into extremes..
You only seal a blade once
do pro's change rubbers every week? maybe, I don't know. The more reason to seal a blade, which wasn't the point. I also read that voc glue could delaminate a blade, but also, that's not the point. We agree to seal a blade. You use oil-based sealants—it's fine, perfect. I use water-based sealants —they're quicker, but for the one blade in a few months, it also doesn't matter. It's a one-time thing. And for the 2 or 3 times per year I change rubbers on a blade ... I don't care.

I really think the product you use, is perfect.. it works. And as long I am not a 2200 usatt golden viscaria user (never will be), like many of us, we won't notice any difference if it's water-based or oil-based.
I hope luck in life doesn't depend on how we seal blades 🙃

 

[rbtitco]

I would love to see a blind test performed. 4 identical Limba blades, one lightly sealed with something like the joola water based sealer, the others unsealed. Could a group of players identify the sealed blade?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

You take it into extremes..
You only seal a blade once
do pro's change rubbers every week? maybe, I don't know. The more reason to seal a blade, which wasn't the point. I also read that voc glue could delaminate a blade, but also, that's not the point. We agree to seal a blade. You use oil-based sealants—it's fine, perfect. I use water-based sealants —they're quicker, but for the one blade in a few months, it also doesn't matter. It's a one-time thing. And for the 2 or 3 times per year I change rubbers on a blade ... I don't care.

I really think the product you use, is perfect.. it works. And as long I am not a 2200 usatt golden viscaria user (never will be), like many of us, we won't notice any difference if it's water-based or oil-based.
I hope luck in life doesn't depend on how we seal blades 🙃

The test was to see if or how using WBG would impact the feel of a blade over time. Once a week for 6 months would duplicate someone who reglues regularly over the course of a few years, without having to wait for the few years to see the results.

Gluing the rubber on a blade you don't actually use approximately 24-25 times in 6 months would be a test that allowed you to see how the blade would play after it has been reglued for years.

And, of course, since we both generally seal our blades, there is no reason to test that unless you wanted to see how WBG impacts naked wood.

But, yeah, none of this matters in the large scope of things. So, I fully agree with the rest of your post. Just wanted to explain the idea behind the test I listed. Both oil based and water based sealants are sold. Use the one you want. And I have explained why I would use the one I want.

 

[disaster3]

OMG!!!! You all scared me af!!!! @hipnotic please, please let us know you opinion on this matter.
My precious treasure came yesterday (Golden Vis.) and I'm boiling to put the rubbers now, but would like to secure it if necessary. Taking into account its availability and the price I treat it like a baby

 

[riemsesy]

I would love to see a blind test performed. 4 identical Limba blades, one lightly sealed with something like the joola water based sealer, the others unsealed. Could a group of players identify the sealed blade?

search youtube the pong professor seal blades

 

[Taute]

I use Donic Lauqer Formula. I completely disagree with those who say that varnishing is not necessary.
Yes, you can leave it unvarnished if you use glue like DHS No. 15, but if you use, say, Butterfly Chack II, I recommend varnishing it, because otherwise, peeling the rubber off the racket can damage the wood (I've experienced it myself).

​

 

[Wakkibatty]

My advice:

One thin wipe of water-based polyurethane, then immediately dry off the excess with a clean dry, lint free rag.

Do this once per side - wet one side then dry it, then move onto the other side.

Then once it's fully dry, give each side a very light rub with 220-240 grit sand paper (it will feel touch dry in 5 minutes, but give it a rest overnight to dry properly). Remember you are not trying to remove *any* of the poly here, you are making the surface *just* rough enough to glue the rubbers on afterwards. Better to go too light than too heavy with the sanding (-- if you find the rubbers aren't sticking properly you can always sand the surface a little bit more.)

Follow the above method, be sure to use water-based poly, and you should have no problems.

(Plus, if you're also willing to send me a few close up pictures of the ply sandwich's glue lines when you get it, I would be very grateful. )

Good luck with it. 🙂

 

[Tyce]

OMG!!!! You all scared me af!!!! @hipnotic please, please let us know you opinion on this matter.
My precious treasure came yesterday (Golden Vis.) and I'm boiling to put the rubbers now, but would like to secure it if necessary. Taking into account its availability and the price I treat it like a baby

If you're in a hurry, use hairspray. It comes off again with the rubber and provides great single-use protection.

 

[SDC]

I don't have time to make a video, but I've made a post about it.

 

[disaster3]

I don't have time to make a video, but I've made a post about it.

where is it?

edit: found