HOT DAMN !!! This coach teaches FH Slow/Heavy loop exactly every key point Der_Echte values !!!

[NetProphet]

No I wrote: Touch point is indeed clearly above table height but beyond the ‘baseline’ and no longer above the playing surface.

Ah yes, no longer above the blue of the table. I had misinterpreted you but because he was saying to wait for the ball to drop below table height I thought it was already a given that we weren't talking about looping balls that were over the table.
Anyway, it's a shot that I can play reasonably well already so I'm not really asking for further explanation from anyone.
I just disagree with you that it's a good video! 😂
Best 👍

 

[NextLevel]

It´s not bad to expect the serve short first. Usually I adapt during/after the first set. Because there are still some players who can serve long or randomly throw in a half long. And you can practise this for 15 years with the same player and you will know his serves in that hall on that table sure. But then you go play a tournament in a different hall vs a new player and then it gets very difficult.
Me personally I am bad at receiving long or half long serves (attacking them). Thats why they keep serving me those serves unless I make a very big statement the first time they serve me like that. Some people want you to loop that ball and then just smash it back. Thats also why I push it back even though I could loop it.

A short serve that is tight (low to the net) and hard to attack is an extremely hard thing to do consistently without world class training and even with such training, the variations in playing environment can upset the players. In fact, way way too often at our amateur levels, too many players push half long and long serves out of laziness or because they lack the awareness or practice to attack them. In fact, one of the reasons I got really good at putting pressure on opponents is that I learned to attack a lot of serves that people would think were safe against other opponents. And it's largely because other opponents would respect the serves as short when the serves deserved no such respect.

So if you are expecting the short serve first, you are probably passing up a lot of opportunities to attack and it is definitely a bad thing to pass up the option without awareness. In fact, one of the things a coach told me was that if you are making mistakes trying to return a serve with short techniques like pushes or flicks, it is probably a long serve that you have no picked up on properly.

 

[dingyibvs]

A short serve that is tight (low to the net) and hard to attack is an extremely hard thing to do consistently without world class training and even with such training, the variations in playing environment can upset the players. In fact, way way too often at our amateur levels, too many players push half long and long serves out of laziness or because they lack the awareness or practice to attack them. In fact, one of the reasons I got really good at putting pressure on opponents is that I learned to attack a lot of serves that people would think were safe against other opponents. And it's largely because other opponents would respect the serves as short when the serves deserved no such respect.

So if you are expecting the short serve first, you are probably passing up a lot of opportunities to attack and it is definitely a bad thing to pass up the option without awareness. In fact, one of the things a coach told me was that if you are making mistakes trying to return a serve with short techniques like pushes or flicks, it is probably a long serve that you have no picked up on properly.

I think the precondition of assuming a short service first is that you need to be able to judge the ball correctly before you touch the ball, so that you can pull your hand back to to loop it if you judge it to be long. The idea here is that if you prepare to loop and it turns out to be short then you won't be able to return it with high quality consistently. If you can't tell if a ball is gonna be long by the 2nd bounce, you need to work on that first.

 

[NextLevel]

I think the precondition of assuming a short service first is that you need to be able to judge the ball correctly before you touch the ball, so that you can pull your hand back to to loop it if you judge it to be long. The idea here is that if you prepare to loop and it turns out to be short then you won't be able to return it with high quality consistently. If you can't tell if a ball is gonna be long by the 2nd bounce, you need to work on that first.

Usually the advice to be ready for the long serve is to have a defense against a fast long serve, not to prepare for a slow long serve. If it is shortish looking, really short serves are usually slower so there is time to get into the table and play a decent return though you are right that getting to the ball early for a great return on short serves requires some good anticipation. The main point for me is that don't give your opponent too much credit on serve length to start - let them earn it. But most top level players make the decision to push short based on serve length extremely early because they are often pressured by their opponent's speed. We don't need to do that consistently, we have much more margin for error.

 

[Der_Echte]

Hot damn halleluyah! This is godsent! I'm gunna rules em all my club members with this. They're all gunna be my B 1 t c H 3 s ! after I employ thia ultra awesome stroke.

Hi Gozo... it is NOT an exaggeration at all to believe that IF you can slow/heavy spin underspin long balls and land them 70% plus that you will win the point nearly every time.

This contributes to wins.

 

[PhoenixTT]

Pretty funny when he tells you to let the ball drop below table level and then demonstrates it at the end always hitting the ball above table level.

Do as I do, not as a say.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Sorry I have to disagree. I think its bad to assume short a short return first. Because unless you play at a semi-pro level, 99/100 pushes will go long. Most people dont practice short returns enough.

Your experience differs from mine. In my club where the uncles and aunties ( ojisan & obasan ) dominates, they have these weird pushes that are weak. They tend to land half long, short i.e., near the net or outright net balls in descending order of frequency. There are less opportunity to loop long balls. That is why I have to be very good at taking half longs and flicks.

 

[Tyce]

My slow loops vs backspin are usually high, slow and short behind the net. I would love to make them long and maybe a little lower, but keep having trouble adjusting to that without turning into a fast forward loop and ending in the net.

 

[NetProphet]

Hi Gozo... it is NOT an exaggeration at all to believe that IF you can slow/heavy spin underspin long balls and land them 70% plus that you will win the point nearly every time.

This contributes to wins.

As Ron Burgundy himself once said, 60% of the time it works every time! 😅

 

[Der_Echte]

If you can't tell if a ball is gonna be long by the 2nd bounce, you need to work on that first.

Hi @dingyibvs I would say true, but even earlier in the cases of responding with flip if serve is short.

One needs to figure out subconsciously within 20-30 cm after first bounce what happened and where/when/how the ball is gunna come to our side and very quickly figure out what to do (without rushing).

If one is gunna straight or power flip the ball, our first step has to take place well before the ball gets to the net.

If one will do the banana flip (where you take the ball as it is falling after bounce on our side) our cue to step is more closer to ball arriving at net.

If ball is coming long, if it is not to far from strike zone, and not to fast a serve, maybe we can wait for second bounce to move the foot for final position. If serve is fast, we need to move earlier. depends on the tempo of the ball.

Often, when Korean pros talk about timing to move to and strike a ball, the use the word "Bak-Ja" which is like the beat in music.

Timing your step, backswing and swing based on what is happening with the ball is a very under-discussed and not so well known thing among amateur TTers.

 

[Der_Echte]

My slow loops vs backspin are usually high, slow and short behind the net. I would love to make them long and maybe a little lower, but keep having trouble adjusting to that without turning into a fast forward loop and ending in the net.

Hi @Tyce ,

On the slow loop, what determines how far the ball rebounds off your bat (or ultimately what controls that) is your grip pressure and delta (change of grip pressure) at impact.

If you are soft, rebound doesn't take ball very deep. If you loosen during impact, you can get ball to drop very short after crossing net.

The thing that makes it easier or more difficult to keep ball low over net is how low you let ball drop and how high ball is when you impact.

If you let ball drop below table and slow loop with a loosening hand, it is medium difficulty to get ball low over net and bounce it short... you are only working with 5 feet or so.

If you strike the ball some where between table height and net height, it is MUCH EASIER to make a heavy loop low over net, (and have the bounce land deep near endline) but you have to have a little more rebound, which means a little less loose at impact, but still loose. You also need to swing forward more than up. you are not lifting the ball as much...

...when you let ball drop below table, you obviously need to lift the ball more.

Blocking a heavy slow loop that lands just after the net is very tough, as it is very difficult to get the bat near the bounce, so it requires a LOT more touch.

Blocking a slow loop that lands deep is MUCH easier as you can easily get the bat near the bounce.

Still, many amateur players do not do well blocking a heavy slow loop. Even many 2300-2400 USATT rated players (that gets you to crack into the top 2% of US players) struggle to counter a slow/heavy loop and land it over 50% even if it is practice and they KNOW where/how the ball is going.

This speaks volumes to the power of being able to slow/heavy loop as an amateur TT player.

Problem is, some opponents simply do not give you many easy balls to slow loop.

When you have time and opportunity, mess around with your grip pressure and how high or low ball is at impact and how forward or upward you swing and see what happens.

 

[NextLevel]

Your experience differs from mine. In my club where the uncles and aunties ( ojisan & obasan ) dominates, they have these weird pushes that are weak. They tend to land half long, short i.e., near the net or outright net balls in descending order of frequency. There are less opportunity to loop long balls. That is why I have to be very good at taking half longs and flicks.

I suspect if you presented video, you would find that Amayzde was right and you were wrong (the short balls would be high and attackable, or would actually be long balls that you read as short balls because of inexperience).

 

[kindof99]

Hi @Tyce ,

On the slow loop, what determines how far the ball rebounds off your bat (or ultimately what controls that) is your grip pressure and delta (change of grip pressure) at impact.

If you are soft, rebound doesn't take ball very deep. If you loosen during impact, you can get ball to drop very short after crossing net.

The thing that makes it easier or more difficult to keep ball low over net is how low you let ball drop and how high ball is when you impact.

If you let ball drop below table and slow loop with a loosening hand, it is medium difficulty to get ball low over net and bounce it short... you are only working with 5 feet or so.

If you strike the ball some where between table height and net height, it is MUCH EASIER to make a heavy loop low over net, but you have to have a little more rebound, which means a little less loose at impact, but still loose. You also need to swing forward more than up. you are not lifting the ball as much...

...when you let ball drop below table, you obviously need to lift the ball more.

Blocking a heavy slow loop that lands just after the net is very tough, as it is very difficult to get the bat near the bounce, so it requires a LOT more touch.

Blocking a slow loop that lands deep is MUCH easier as you can easily get the bat near the bounce.

Still, many amateur players do not do well blocking a heavy slow loop. Even many 2300-2400 USATT rated players (that gets you to crack into the top 2% of US players) struggle to counter a slow/heavy loop and land it over 50% even if it is practice and they KNOW where/how the ball is going.

This speaks volumes to the power of being able to slow/heavy loop as an amateur TT player.

Problem is, some opponents simply do not give you many easy balls to slow loop.

When you have time and opportunity, mess around with your grip pressure and how high or low and how forward or upward you swing and see what happens.

ZJK just introduced a concept to block/counter the slow spinny ball when it is dropping. It actually makes more sense. Blocking the ball when it is rising requires good judgment, timing, and touch. You can easily block/hit a slow spinny ball from another amateur is just because it is not spinny, low enough.

 

[Der_Echte]

I suspect if you presented video, you would find that Amayzde was right and you were wrong (the short balls would be high and attackable, or would actually be long balls that you read as short balls because of inexperience).

I would opine that the light spin balls often pass the endline... so if you get the hips down and let the ball drop real low, it is a GREAT opportunity to spin heavy... but right now heavy Spin for gozo is a four letter word that starts with s like it is a forbidden word to say.

it is well within gozo's capabilities, but attitude, experience, confidence, awareness and preference influence decisions and execution.

 

[Der_Echte]

ZJK just introduced a concept to block/counter the slow spinny ball when it is dropping. It actually makes more sense. Blocking the ball when it is rising requires good judgment, timing, and touch. You can easily block/hit a slow spinny ball from another amateur is just because it is not spinny, low enough.

Far away from the bounce, without doing a retrieve impacting ball off the spin axis (impacting on the side a little) it is way more difficult to block heavy slow loop than simply getting the bat to the bounce cover it with loose grip.

Touch required to retrieve away from table is much finer than off the bounce blocking.

I would argue that it is easier to counter a heavy loop when 2-5 feet off table allowing ball to drop and swing through it... it still requires timing, touch, and control of strike zone and bat angle/bat speed/grip, but that is easier away from table than blocking it.

A retrieve with a little side impact is basically a sidespin counter shot and that is much easier to do than a straight block at distance vs a heavy/slow ball.

 

[Der_Echte]

I have hit vs a boatload of players from just about every level and I can say with honesty and truth that the great majority of players under 2100 level in a match will struggle against those slow/heavy loops if you get the opportunity to play that shot, even many 2300 level struggle, just not as many. However at that level vs mine, they can control and limit my opportunities and make them much lower percentage chances.

Of course some can do a block or sideswipe counter at even lower levels, but great majority do not.

 

[Jslick89]

I have hit vs a boatload of players from just about every level and I can say with honesty and truth that the great majority of players under 2100 level in a match will struggle against those slow/heavy loops if you get the opportunity to play that shot, even many 2300 level struggle, just not as many. However at that level vs mine, they can control and limit my opportunities and make them much lower percentage chances.

Of course some can do a block or sideswipe counter at even lower levels, but great majority do not.

everyone except mad dog jslick

 

[Tyce]

It's true what @Der_Echte says, many opponents just completely overshoot the slow spinny loop. Part is the spin ofc, but more importantly the slow. It messes with timing, makes them expect a weak ball subconsciously and then poof, it jumps out because it's actually loaded.
I agree that it has potential and great use, and I'd use it more consciously if I also had a long spinny version to vary with.
Tension in grip sounds like a good place to start.

 

[NetProphet]

I have hit vs a boatload of players from just about every level and I can say with honesty and truth that the great majority of players under 2100 level in a match will struggle against those slow/heavy loops if you get the opportunity to play that shot, even many 2300 level struggle, just not as many. However at that level vs mine, they can control and limit my opportunities and make them much lower percentage chances.

Of course some can do a block or sideswipe counter at even lower levels, but great majority do not.

Perry Schwartzberg agrees with you 😁

August 5, 2024 - The Slow, Spinny Loop | TableTennisCoaching.com

“It’s an unreturnable shot,” said US Team Member Perry Schwartzberg many years ago after failing repeatedly to block, hit, or counterloop against fellow team member Ricky Seemiller’s slow, spinny loop. World #3 Mikael Appelgren had a similar problem against Ricky, losing to him when the world’s...

www.tabletenniscoaching.com

 

[Federal_Agent]

guys, if that's a slow loop, imagine the warp speed of the normal loop 😱😱😱