CORKSCREW --the best rewarding type of spin.

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Why are you being confrontational?
I was just trying to explain the English terminology to you, knowing full well that you are a more experienced player than me, but also that your English is sometimes limited (by your own admission).
Please don't try to dumb this down or counter-attack me, this was never meant to be disrespectful or aggressive towards you. I have no intentions of discrediting you or to make an argument about this!

I would rather prefer we poke fun at Igor's threads together, as they always deserve that!

i didn't know you felt I was attacking you
i sure wasn't
you will know if I was attacking you, Carl will get lots of reports.

i guess people like to give nouns, no different to Chinese terms having so many names that isn't in English.
But spin is very simple and there is no different, it is either spin or no spin, and spin has 4 directions and mixed, it becomes 8 directions basically.

never the less, what counts is execution ability, so theory at 100% doesn't mean you can win wtt titles

now, i will take this corkscrew and go and test the whole TPE national team and see who passes.
i don't think they have heard ghost spin before too

 

[tzifos]

at a bowling ball you have multiple points of contact and force directions. In a ping pong ball the point of contact is one, direction of the bat (hit) is one as the time of contact is almost 0. So it is almost impossible to have two types of rotation at the same time in a PP ball.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

ah snakeshot is a kind of corkscrew, it's not sidespin, neither topspin or backspin
like a bowlingball thrown by a pro, you see the ball drift while sliding forward

snake shot is just spin, but if one needs to call it corkscrew or bottlecap, it doesn't matter to be honest
because it is all about spin and the ability to read it or not.
snake shot is not about outspinning, but rather tricking your opponent in your action - same as fake moves in serves.

the drift in the air has many factors, arc and spin related.
going forward or not is the same thing - same thing as a chopper who chops, the ball will still go forward, but the spin will cause resistance in the air and on the bounce.

 

[Metaxa]

Lol, surely a ball with side spin just can't change from backspin to topspin or vice versa. Not even our best friend Anders Lind can do this, let alone Adam Bobrow.
Gauzy's all his balls were topspin balls, only his last one was a combination of side spin & backspin. Something else doesn't exist guys.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Lol, surely a ball with side spin just can't change from backspin to topspin or vice versa. Not even our best friend Anders Lind can do this, let alone Adam Bobrow.
Gauzy's all his balls were topspin balls, only his last one was a combination of side spin & backspin. Something else doesn't exist guys.

i actually went to get eye drops today at the eye doctor, because I am struggling to read this thread.
I got 3 bottles and can take a photo if you don't believe me
i am so serious, haha

oh rather, i think the eye problem was from yesterday, so it wasn't igor

 

[Dr Evil]

what is back-front spin axis?

I think haggisv and nablaz gave good answers to this. Another way of looking at it is how the spinning ball would roll on the table. Topspin/underspin is like rolling forward or backward. Corkscrew spin is like rolling to the left or right. Pure sidespin wouldn't roll, it would just spin in place clockwise or counter-clockwise if you're looking down at it.

It's helpful to distinguish corkscrew spin from sidespin because you produce them differently and they produce different useful effects on the flight path and bounce on serves, loops, chops, etc. Corkscrew is most prominent in snake shots, where it's produced by contacting the bottom of the ball and moving the blade left or right. In fact, the whole point of a snake shot is to make your opponent think the blade was moving left on contact when it was actually moving right, or vice versa. Bobrow is great at this, but the best I've ever seen is Gauzy. He often uses a subtle but totally convincing shoulder fake on contact rather than a big fake after-motion.

 

[nablaz]

Ok, if you prefer to describe matters from a 2-D perspective, I'll leave you to it. Have fun, but please leave me out of it...
I'm sorry I took my time to put in simple words a concept which apparently is too absurd to explain.

Lol, surely a ball with side spin just can't change from backspin to topspin or vice versa. Not even our best friend Anders Lind can do this, let alone Adam Bobrow.
Gauzy's all his balls were topspin balls, only his last one was a combination of side spin & backspin. Something else doesn't exist guys.

Was this in any way or shape an attempt to answer or adress what I previously wrote?
It just doesn't look like an argument made by an individual with basic reading comprehension skills... Sorry.

 

[haggisv]

Another way of looking at it is how the spinning ball would roll on the table. Topspin/underspin is like rolling forward or backward. Corkscrew spin is like rolling to the left or right. Pure sidespin wouldn't roll, it would just spin in place clockwise or counter-clockwise if you're looking down at it.

Nicely illustrated, I agree completely.

 

[Metaxa]

On a round object, you only have 2 basic axes that are (playable) in all technical ball sports, a horizontal and vertical axis. Of course, between these axes you can play all playing surfaces. A touch between a horizontal and the vertical axis will simply generate back/top spin with a side spin (left/right).
I do believe in a nicely played ‘roller’ which is usually played from the side of the table, around the net to then roll/slide across the table. That ball is definitely played on the playing surface between the horizontal & vertical axis, left/right, and if played at the right speed it won't come (collide) back on the table.
In the video of Gauzy vs Liang, his last ball is just a back/side spin ball. If Igor wants to give the name corkscrew to that is his full right but makes no sense.

 

[S2000]

On a round object, you only have 2 basic axes that are (playable) in all technical ball sports, a horizontal and vertical axis. Of course, between these axes you can play all playing surfaces. A touch between a horizontal and the vertical axis will simply generate back/top spin with a side spin (left/right).
I do believe in a nicely played ‘roller’ which is usually played from the side of the table, around the net to then roll/slide across the table. That ball is definitely played on the playing surface between the horizontal & vertical axis, left/right, and if played at the right speed it won't come (collide) back on the table.
In the video of Gauzy vs Liang, his last ball is just a back/side spin ball. If Igor wants to give the name corkscrew to that is his full right but makes no sense.

Mozart of table tennis has such serves since a long time. Check out when he meets Dan from tabletennisdaily and instruct in how to do this type of serve. Whatever they are called they were effective! As for dimensions there are actually two horizontal axes. We play table tennis in 3D and not along a straight line. Cheers!

 

[Metaxa]

Mozart of table tennis has such serves since a long time. Check out when he meets Dan from tabletennisdaily and instruct in how to do this type of serve. Whatever they are called they were effective! As for dimensions there are actually two horizontal axes. We play table tennis in 3D and not along a straight line. Cheers!

Two horizontal axes? On every ball, there are 10-number of horizontal and vertical axes but there are only two basic axes (this one in the middle). In billiards, you have to know how to find all those axes to ‘score’.

 

[nablaz]

Two horizontal axes? On every ball, there are 10-number of horizontal and vertical axes but there are only two basic axes (this one in the middle). In billiards, you have to know how to find all those axes to ‘score’.

Why are you comparing billiards to table tennis? One is 2-D and the other is 3-D...
I really do not think they are as comparable as you are trying to sell it.

Also, it's not like Igor invented the term "corkscrew spin". Sure, he definitely misused it (has he ever used any word properly?), but it's been around for long and helps to define those (rare but possible) shots with an axis of rotation almost parallel to their trajectory.

 

[igorponger]

Corkscrew Made in Germany

Till recently, the corkscrew balls were mostly performed when delivering serves , like Samsonov's high toss serve. And nowdays some skilled players can make a good use of corkscrew when playing spinny rallies.
Enclosed here is a viewy example of devastating corkscrew by a German senior master. . Learn it and adopt it.

 

[Der_Echte]

Nicely illustrated, I agree completely.

I would agree and say in a different illustration/explanation that corkscrew is thinking like a face of a clock is a ball coming at you and the spin axis is the minute hand going clockwise or counter clockwise...

... that sidespin is like clock laying flat on the table sliding towards you... and minute hand moves clockwise or counter clockwise...

... that topspin would be like the clock rolling towards you.

These are examples of the pure forms of each three spins.

Rarely, you have 100% of a certain spin.

My corkscrew counter topspin is maybe 50% cork and the rest side and top spin.

A corkscrew counter loop is a reasonably easy shot to control incoming heavy topspin balls... the impact somewhat on side of blade and the direction of stroke are a kind of spin avoidance that @NextLevel and others often discuss.

Longtime OOAK forum member HOOKSHOT might have just a little bit to say on this matter.

 

[Metaxa]

Why are you comparing billiards to table tennis? One is 2-D and the other is 3-D...
I really do not think they are as comparable as you are trying to sell it.

Also, it's not like Igor invented the term "corkscrew spin". Sure, he definitely misused it (has he ever used any word properly?), but it's been around for long and helps to define those (rare but possible) shots with an axis of rotation almost parallel to their trajectory.

The hit point to play a so called corkscrew is in the same place in billiards and table tennis. Back/top spin & side spin going around their axis simultaneously gives a spiral motion.
It's some handy media people who think they've reinvented the wheel that came up with such a name I suppose. In the early 1980s (i.e. long before the internet existed), there was someone in the mining club at the time and he could play well-camouflaged, side spin/backspin balls one time and side spin/top spin balls the next, you could hardly see it. We called that in the club, Truly Wooly balls. No idea where or why it came from at the time. Just to say, balls with side spin and simultaneous back/top spin has been around forever.
Anders Lind gives some good examples of side spin back spin/top spin balls in his video. The better you can hide movement the better the result.

 

[Metaxa]

Corkscrew Made in Germany

Till recently, the corkscrew balls were mostly performed when delivering serves , like Samsonov's high toss serve. And nowdays some skilled players can make a good use of corkscrew when playing spinny rallies.
Enclosed here is a viewy example of devastating corkscrew by a German senior master. . Learn it and adopt it.

Corkscrew bal....🤦‍♂️

 

[riemsesy]

Corkscrew bal....🤦‍♂️

Pigtail smash 🤣

 

[Dr Evil]

I would agree and say in a different illustration/explanation that corkscrew is thinking like a face of a clock is a ball coming at you and the spin axis is the minute hand going clockwise or counter clockwise...

... that sidespin is like clock laying flat on the table sliding towards you... and minute hand moves clockwise or counter clockwise...

... that topspin would be like the clock rolling towards you.

These are examples of the pure forms of each three spins.

Rarely, you have 100% of a certain spin.

My corkscrew counter topspin is maybe 50% cork and the rest side and top spin.

A corkscrew counter loop is a reasonably easy shot to control incoming heavy topspin balls... the impact somewhat on side of blade and the direction of stroke are a kind of spin avoidance that @NextLevel and others often discuss.

Longtime OOAK forum member HOOKSHOT might have just a little bit to say on this matter.

Exactly, corkscrew spin is not just for snake shots, it's all over the place. A lot of so-called sidespin is actually more corkscrew (if contact is towards the bottom or top of the ball going more right to left or left to right rather than straight forward). As Der_Echte writes, this kind of contact can be useful for spin avoidance. Corkscrew vs sidespin can also be a tricky and disruptive spin variation (cork has less curve through the air and more kick off the bounce), and deliberate practice is easier if you have the distinction clear in your mind.

 

[Tinykin]

Corkscrew Made in Germany

Till recently, the corkscrew balls were mostly performed when delivering serves , like Samsonov's high toss serve. And nowdays some skilled players can make a good use of corkscrew when playing spinny rallies.
Enclosed here is a viewy example of devastating corkscrew by a German senior master. . Learn it and adopt it.

Igor, I think that you have the players mixed up.
That's a match between two ex-international players. Chris Doran (England) vs Grigory Vlasov (Russia)

The complete match is here:

 

[nablaz]

The hit point to play a so called corkscrew is in the same place in billiards and table tennis. Back/top spin & side spin going around their axis simultaneously gives a spiral motion.
It's some handy media people who think they've reinvented the wheel that came up with such a name I suppose. In the early 1980s (i.e. long before the internet existed), there was someone in the mining club at the time and he could play well-camouflaged, side spin/backspin balls one time and side spin/top spin balls the next, you could hardly see it. We called that in the club, Truly Wooly balls. No idea where or why it came from at the time. Just to say, balls with side spin and simultaneous back/top spin has been around forever.
Anders Lind gives some good examples of side spin back spin/top spin balls in his video. The better you can hide movement the better the result.

I still don't understand why we should be trying to reduce a three-dimensional concept to two dimensions only.
There are already 3/4 people on the thread, plus an AI, with decent enough explanations of the three-dimensionality of this phenomenon we are talking about, there really is no media "reinventing the wheel" and it is not about camouflaging nor having multiple spins at the same time. It's just that the ball is a 3D object and its spin and movement can be divided into three spatial components CONCEPTUALLY.

Ignoring Igor's original point, the thread just evolved by attempting to clarify a concept that was lexically foreign to a person (who on the other hand is obviously well versed with the practice of said concept), which unfortunately only seems to have introduced more semantical incomprehensions.

And no, side-topspin or side-backspin are not corkscrew spin. No matter what Igor, or anyone else, erroneously says.