Feedback on my League games

[dingyibvs]

Anyways maybe someone who understood what I wrote here knows how I can work on these things. I could try to film my training drills next week after my game on Monday. Which will be against a really strong opponent RC1700 currently 1st 30-1 in the standings.

Played him twice but last time he played even better.

- Here he just casually loops the ball slowly and controlled.
Should I just get low and slap these slow "topspins" or shovels that he is giving me back? The one loss he has was against a young player who smashes aswell. Even though I didn´t see their games he probably did that to him - he has only 1 playstyle. Seems like I just respected those slow openings by him but it doesn´t look like it has much spin on it

Once he topspins you basically already lost. He's serving you a lot of attackable balls and you either just soft push it or loop it with the weakest spin. Punish those serves, attack them with a harder loop when they go long or a faster push when they're short. If you attack with a push, be read to attack the next ball as he'll most likely push it back. Same as when you're serving, be ready to attack his returns as he mostly pushes them after failing to attack your services a couple times in the first set. Critical to all of these will be footwork. Look at how his feet are always ready to move as you hit the ball, while yours are glued to the ground and reacting only after the ball comes at you.

If you don't know how to do those things then you need to work on those things. Work on attacking half-long services, work on 3rd ball attacks, and work on attacking after a push. Yes, you're losing to him in rallies as well, but you're losing to him much more in the service/return game. He's on a higher level in both aspects, but you need to fix the service/return respect first or you'll enter every rally at a disadvantage and never have a chance to begin with.

 

[Zezima]

Once he topspins you basically already lost. He's serving you a lot of attackable balls and you either just soft push it or loop it with the weakest spin. Punish those serves, attack them with a harder loop when they go long or a faster push when they're short. If you attack with a push, be read to attack the next ball as he'll most likely push it back. Same as when you're serving, be ready to attack his returns as he mostly pushes them after failing to attack your services a couple times in the first set. Critical to all of these will be footwork. Look at how his feet are always ready to move as you hit the ball, while yours are glued to the ground and reacting only after the ball comes at you.

If you don't know how to do those things then you need to work on those things. Work on attacking half-long services, work on 3rd ball attacks, and work on attacking after a push. Yes, you're losing to him in rallies as well, but you're losing to him much more in the service/return game. He's on a higher level in both aspects, but you need to fix the service/return respect first or you'll enter every rally at a disadvantage and never have a chance to begin with.

You are right.
All I tried especially on return was to keep my push short so he won´t attack me. But that didn´t work out.
I don´t know if you watched the entire game but in the first set I tried to loop those balls with my backhand (2nd set aswell) didn´t work out at all. Since I havent practise flipping at all lately I will have to default to FH pushes again. I don´t think I ever tried to push fast and long ever. Will keep that in mind.
I think he reads my body language well and overall is more experienced and is a better player so he knows where I am gonna push/ place the ball so he can move earlier.
While I have to wait and see where he is going to place the ball and then start moving -> As you said it looks like I am glued to the ground and am only reacting -> bad shot quality by me.

also this ball exchange crushed my hopes:

Because I felt like I put everything out and still it wasn´t enough. I remember even thinking about my placement and changing the pace aswell...

You talked about 3rd Ball attacking:

Should I just avoid hitting to his BH?
My thought process here was even if he blocks. I will get it back into my BH and maybe can recover and can continue to play as Plan B but overall the shot was meant to get the point instantly -> Again prob a bad habit I aquired over the years because I have been playing against worse opponents who wouldn´t be able to block that ball back.

this was a good rally by me. But no way I can keep doing this the entire match. He doesn´t play flashy eithe. Very basic serve & return game and easy controlled opening loop or flick. I have to admit his technique weirds me out in terms of I keep thinking he just lifts the ball and then get surprised when the ball picks up some pace once it lands on my table...

But anyway I agree he was way more fluent with his legs than me. I hold my ground and have more "power" and better shot quality if I dont miss. And he goes for fluent movement with legs with less shot quality but safer but still active shots.

 

[Nash77]

HI Zezima, just wondering - how long have you been playing/training in table tennis? And what league are these matches from?

 

[jk1980]

also this ball exchange crushed my hopes:

I don't want to jump onto the "hl5 with max dignics 09c is only for pro players"-bandwagon, but if i see this rallye i notice that you never ever did use a loop or shot that you put more than 80% power into. Of course you want to return the ball onto the table, but if your setup does not instill the confidence to pull through with more than 80% of your power even though you are standing nearly 2 meters away from the table, what is it good for ? Do you want to keep the last 20% of power for rallies where you stand 4 meters from the table ?

it seems like you are afraid of what would come out of your setup if you went gung ho and you probably dont want to repair the roof of the gym when you pierce holes into it with your balls

 

[dingyibvs]

You are right.
All I tried especially on return was to keep my push short so he won´t attack me. But that didn´t work out.
I don´t know if you watched the entire game but in the first set I tried to loop those balls with my backhand (2nd set aswell) didn´t work out at all. Since I havent practise flipping at all lately I will have to default to FH pushes again. I don´t think I ever tried to push fast and long ever. Will keep that in mind.
I think he reads my body language well and overall is more experienced and is a better player so he knows where I am gonna push/ place the ball so he can move earlier.
While I have to wait and see where he is going to place the ball and then start moving -> As you said it looks like I am glued to the ground and am only reacting -> bad shot quality by me.

also this ball exchange crushed my hopes:

Because I felt like I put everything out and still it wasn´t enough. I remember even thinking about my placement and changing the pace aswell...

You talked about 3rd Ball attacking:

Should I just avoid hitting to his BH?
My thought process here was even if he blocks. I will get it back into my BH and maybe can recover and can continue to play as Plan B but overall the shot was meant to get the point instantly -> Again prob a bad habit I aquired over the years because I have been playing against worse opponents who wouldn´t be able to block that ball back.

this was a good rally by me. But no way I can keep doing this the entire match. He doesn´t play flashy eithe. Very basic serve & return game and easy controlled opening loop or flick. I have to admit his technique weirds me out in terms of I keep thinking he just lifts the ball and then get surprised when the ball picks up some pace once it lands on my table...

But anyway I agree he was way more fluent with his legs than me. I hold my ground and have more "power" and better shot quality if I dont miss. And he goes for fluent movement with legs with less shot quality but safer but still active shots.

A couple things:

1) Yes, I watched the whole match, and I saw those attempts to attack his serves with your BH. My question is, why the BH? And why over the table? They're almost all services you should loop with your FH, with much more power. Over the table BH loop is one of the most advanced receives, one that you're particularly ill-equipped to execute due to its demands on footwork and quick recognition. If you can't even recognize the service's length quickly enough and can't even get into position quickly enough consistently against soft pushes then why attempt receives that requires those things the most? Short pushes also require the same thing, though a little bit less in terms of footwork. At lower levels I wouldn't recommend it because as @NextLevel often points out people just don't serve short that often.

2) Regarding your specific clips. Notice how in the 1st video he was the one who opened up first. Even though you managed to counter his openings to enter a rally, you were reactive from the start, so your initial counter while having solid speed/spin, was placed at a very comfortable spot and he was able to back off to a comfortable distance. You two were in even position after your counter, so even if you're just as good in rallies as him you'd still only have a 50-50 chance of winning it. In the 3rd video where you won the rally, you opened up and put him at a disadvantage from the get go. He was reactive the entire rally, only doing just enough to get the ball back, with no chance of seeking placement or counter looping. In the 2nd video, if you're gonna pivot that much to go for a FH, you need to go for a big FH, not the weak one you opened up with. You can certainly loop to his BH in that situation, but it needs to be of enough quality that he can only focus on blocking it back, which is usually the easiest back in the same direction it came from (i.e. back to your BH corner). With a weak attack he can focus on where to place it, and you don't have the footwork to cover out wide after an initial attack. If you do that more often, you do need to mix it up and go to his FH and middle sometimes as well, so he can't just be camping on a loop to his BH.

 

[NextLevel]

A couple things:

1) Yes, I watched the whole match, and I saw those attempts to attack his serves with your BH. My question is, why the BH? And why over the table? They're almost all services you should loop with your FH, with much more power. Over the table BH loop is one of the most advanced receives, one that you're particularly ill-equipped to execute due to its demands on footwork and quick recognition. If you can't even recognize the service's length quickly enough and can't even get into position quickly enough consistently against soft pushes then why attempt receives that requires those things the most? Short pushes also require the same thing, though a little bit less in terms of footwork. At lower levels I wouldn't recommend it because as @NextLevel often points out people just don't serve short that often.

2) Regarding your specific clips. Notice how in the 1st video he was the one who opened up first. Even though you managed to counter his openings to enter a rally, you were reactive from the start, so your initial counter while having solid speed/spin, was placed at a very comfortable spot and he was able to back off to a comfortable distance. You two were in even position after your counter, so even if you're just as good in rallies as him you'd still only have a 50-50 chance of winning it. In the 3rd video where you won the rally, you opened up and put him at a disadvantage from the get go. He was reactive the entire rally, only doing just enough to get the ball back, with no chance of seeking placement or counter looping. In the 2nd video, if you're gonna pivot that much to go for a FH, you need to go for a big FH, not the weak one you opened up with. You can certainly loop to his BH in that situation, but it needs to be of enough quality that he can only focus on blocking it back, which is usually the easiest back in the same direction it came from (i.e. back to your BH corner). With a weak attack he can focus on where to place it, and you don't have the footwork to cover out wide after an initial attack. If you do that more often, you do need to mix it up and go to his FH and middle sometimes as well, so he can't just be camping on a loop to his BH.

Anyone who will train serve return on long and half long balls with the forehand extensively will get a major jump in playing level really quickly because there are so many opportunities that show up in matches below USATT 2000 that don't get utilized because people lack the skills. You don't even have to exploit them all the time, defence against looped serves is so poor at the lower levels that you can even just save it for critical points and still make out like a bandit. But once you start it, the pressure to keep the serves tight causes the opponents problems as well.

The problem is that many times; especially on topspin sidespin and nospin serves, people treat serves that will drift long as if they are short.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Anyone who will train serve return on long and half long balls with the forehand extensively will get a major jump in playing level really quickly because there are so many opportunities that show up in matches below USATT 2000 that don't get utilized because people lack the skills. You don't even have to exploit them all the time, defence against looped serves is so poor at the lower levels that you can even just save it for critical points and still make out like a bandit. But once you start it, the pressure to keep the serves tight causes the opponents problems as well.

The problem is that many times; especially on topspin sidespin and nospin serves, people treat serves that will drift long as if they are short.

One of the biggest differentiators I notice between pro-trained and non pro-trained amateur players. Many coaches will actually punish their students for not attacking serves that go long. The earlier one can get used to doing this, the better.

 

[NextLevel]

Speaking specifically to Zezima, you need to develop adaptable technique by testing swing paths in response to different spins. Your backhand probably used a little too much forearm and wrist together to generate spin for optimal control. You should be able to get almost everything from the wrist if you get the elbow positioning correct. Watch Liam Pitchford as a good example.

 

[NetProphet]

I actually just loop to win the point straight away depending on what I think where he is weaker FH or BH. I don´t really think about what anglees I give him or which angles I need to cover after my stroke. I always think he can play anywhere on the table so I am mostly not ready for the next ball to attack properly. Thats why you see me return it weak back.

Thats a good point. I will write it down and try to practise this "actively" more. Maybe I do it sometimes unconsiously but even if I do it placement wise I try to end the rally with a fast paced topspin even though its not even needed.
Like currently I feel like I can only loop 100% or 20% (very slow and highish) I can only do like 50-70% when I have to open up on long backspin. But I feel I dont have the control yet to loop it at that pace against float/block highish balls.
Which is weird because I am more upright and technically it should be easier for me? Generally I play much better topspins against lower blocks or lower long backspin balls. Against higher balls that have some backspin on it my stroke doesnt seem to work reliably because it goes off the table. I seem to not realize that I dont need much upwards movement even though the ball has some backspin on it. And its not even that alone but also that when I try to apply spin on the ball -> I try to hit tangential but still upwards to apply spin and the arc. But that is pure luck since I can´t properly control it yet.
Maybe my frustration also comes from this that technically I can do any stroke but during the heat of the moment I don´t know how to loop that certain ball to make it safe over the net and controlled land it on the table.

Been working on this but in training its easy. The balls come as predicted(placement) and I can loop that certain ball back with no problem. Yesterday I did this drill too but I didn´t get to play the block ball because he would block it out 95% of the time. He could only block my topspin against topspin balls because I don´t have as much spin as against long backspin balls. So it´s a bit hard.
And in actual games they don´t really push it back to my FH as much and I seem to be quite late (to not make it obvious that I am gonna pivot) thats why I have been working on my backhand opening lately but it´s not as good as my FH obviously. I am also getting old so I don´t want to rely on pivoting to win games.

Anyways maybe someone who understood what I wrote here knows how I can work on these things. I could try to film my training drills next week after my game on Monday. Which will be against a really strong opponent RC1700 currently 1st 30-1 in the standings.

Played him twice but last time he played even better.

- Here he just casually loops the ball slowly and controlled.
Should I just get low and slap these slow "topspins" or shovels that he is giving me back? The one loss he has was against a young player who smashes aswell. Even though I didn´t see their games he probably did that to him - he has only 1 playstyle. Seems like I just respected those slow openings by him but it doesn´t look like it has much spin on it

I just watched the match again.
He's good, very controlled and not making many mistakes.
I've played a 1750 German ranking so I know the level.
I would say his game should suit you though. He doesn't push much and likes an attacking topspin game.
If you are relaxed, focused, and play your attacking game with confidence you can do well.

Tactics aside, one of the issues you have is recovering and preparing for the next shot. I think someone else said it earlier but you have somehow to build it into your strokes.

A slightly strange thing I noticed is that when receiving serve, you are low, low, waiting, low and then just as they are about to serve you stand up. I don't know if this is intentional or something you're not aware of but staying down should be better for the recieve.

In the rallies, particularly BH, don't reach towards the ball, wait for it to come to you, you have time, or if you're reaching because it's dropping then you're either not low enough or not close enough. Footwork.

On FH side don't try to kill the ball too often either. When you have him back and are looping or smashing, you are in control. Just accept that it may take 3-6 shots to get it done. On the shorter ball fished back then you can find more angle or a drop shot to make him run but other than that just pin him back before switching side. Patience.

And I wouldn't be afraid to take a step back against him and use the 09c counterloop ability rather than tame blocking that puts you on the backfoot. Enjoy it! Just don't try to kill it, hit the table with control like he does. Your %s are going up then!

Tactics in, the short backspin to FH is safe, he doesn't FH flick and you got some direct points from good serves to there. But be ready to Chiquita or loop his push. Unless he pushes short to your FH in which case you push long to his exposed BH or (as he's steps back) go short to his FH again.

Long backspin to his BH looks safe, I didn't see any awesome BH opening loops.
If you can dial in your serves to get the half long really working then I can see you giving him problems.

His backspin serves to your FH is where you can really make an improvement though. You took the wrong option many times there, pushing long ones that should have been looped or misreading the short ones, kind of popping them up instead of stepping in to take it off the bounce to drop it short or really pushing it with proper backspin and a bit of speed!

Beware of his long backspin serves to your BH too, you gave away a few points directly from that. Game 1 and 3 finished with you missing the ball in there.
Actually all 3 games finished with you mistiming and outright missing a ball into your BH 🤷

Those are my observations for your preparation. Hopefully it helps some.
Cheers 👍

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Played him twice but last time he played even better.

- Here he just casually loops the ball slowly and controlled.
Should I just get low and slap these slow "topspins" or shovels that he is giving me back? The one loss he has was against a young player who smashes aswell. Even though I didn´t see their games he probably did that to him - he has only 1 playstyle. Seems like I just respected those slow openings by him but it doesn´t look like it has much spin on it

Don't overthink it. You are playing someone who is 300 points higher than you. Making tactical or playstyle changes isn't likely to change the end result. He could probably beat you comfortably no matter what tactical adjustment you make as he will be able to adjust just as easily if not more easily. Focus on matches that are more within your level range.

 

[NextLevel]

Don't overthink it. You are playing someone who is 300 points higher than you. Making tactical or playstyle changes isn't likely to change the end result. He could probably beat you comfortably no matter what tactical adjustment you make as he will be able to adjust just as easily if not more easily. Focus on matches that are more within your level range.

This is technically true but a bad mental and tactical approach to table tennis. Mindset matters so gor him to play to win, he needs to believe on some level that he can win. What that means to him is not for you or me to decide. It is decided on the table. Not by the ratings. And you never know when a small wrinkle makes that mindset usable.

 

[NetProphet]

Don't overthink it. You are playing someone who is 300 points higher than you. Making tactical or playstyle changes isn't likely to change the end result. He could probably beat you comfortably no matter what tactical adjustment you make as he will be able to adjust just as easily if not more easily. Focus on matches that are more within your level range.

I think repeat games against opponents like this are a good barometer to see if/where you've improved and also to test your tactical thinking as an exercise to try to figure what can cause issues for the opponent, even if it doesn't change the end result.
I do agree with your point though, it's not something to suffer over when losing.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

This is technically true but a bad mental and tactical approach to table tennis. Mindset matters so gor him to play to win, he needs to believe on some level that he can win. What that means to him is not for you or me to decide. It is decided on the table. Not by the ratings. And you never know when a small wrinkle makes that mindset usable.

I don't agree it's a bad mental approach to table tennis. Unless you are a professional player you have limited time and energy you can spend. And if your goal is to improve, your mental energy as a 1400 TTR player could probably be better spent on a lot of other things that would help your game rather than trying to modify your playstyle or tactics, when your physical capabilities are already pretty limited, against one opponent who is simply way better than you and could probably beat you no matter what you throw at them.

The ratings aren't everything, but I watched the video too.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I think repeat games against opponents like this are a good barometer to see if/where you've improved and also to test your tactical thinking as an exercise to try to figure what can cause issues for the opponent, even if it doesn't change the end result.
I do agree with your point though, it's not something to suffer over when losing.

How do you use it as a barometer though when you come with your new tactics and the much better opponent makes his own adaptations and wins just as easily but in a different manner?

 

[NetProphet]

How do you use it as a barometer though when you come with your new tactics and the much better opponent makes his own adaptations and wins just as easily but in a different manner?

If that's exactly what happens, then the gap is the same, no problem.
But you don't know how it's going to go.

Are you saying lower ranked players can't get anything from trying new tactics and approach against an opponent they've previously lost to? Surely not.

One can lose but still learn a lot, especially to see if their new approach changed anything. I'm not suggesting that confidence and different tactics can bridge a 250 gap but it's a free shot so it can still be a very useful lesson!

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Are you saying lower ranked players can't get anything from trying new tactics and approach against an opponent they've previously lost to? Surely not.

When the level gap is so large, yes I am saying that for many cases. Unless the new approach is really such a strong weakness for the opponent that it actually pushes them to have to try to win, which is unlikely in the case of a 300 point level gap, then you can't really read too much into whatever adaptation an opponent made because often the only difference is that they had to graduate from 60% effort to 70% effort.

 

[NetProphet]

When the level gap is so large, yes I am saying that for many cases.

You are correct, for many cases.
If you were talking to a buddy who casually mentioned he had to play someone with a 250 ranking point advantage then yes, 100% yes.
But my point is that the other (rarer) cases are likely the ones where a player has recorded his match, studied it, posted it to a forum, asked for advice and gone into the match with a better idea and clear plan.

From your first post I replied on, the only things I question are the first and last sentences, the rest I agree.
So while the OP is serious about it and (to me anyway) is clearly going to use it as some barometer it just seems more constructive to actually overthink it a little with him rather than saying just focus on other matches.
We've all seen nights where a 1500 player plays like a 1600 and the 1700 player also plays like a 1600, and a match you thought was done is in the mixer.
I've dragged higher level players to the 5th set from taking it seriously and those are the matches I have taken real confidence from!

 

[blahness]

Once he topspins you basically already lost. He's serving you a lot of attackable balls and you either just soft push it or loop it with the weakest spin. Punish those serves, attack them with a harder loop when they go long or a faster push when they're short. If you attack with a push, be read to attack the next ball as he'll most likely push it back. Same as when you're serving, be ready to attack his returns as he mostly pushes them after failing to attack your services a couple times in the first set. Critical to all of these will be footwork. Look at how his feet are always ready to move as you hit the ball, while yours are glued to the ground and reacting only after the ball comes at you.

If you don't know how to do those things then you need to work on those things. Work on attacking half-long services, work on 3rd ball attacks, and work on attacking after a push. Yes, you're losing to him in rallies as well, but you're losing to him much more in the service/return game. He's on a higher level in both aspects, but you need to fix the service/return respect first or you'll enter every rally at a disadvantage and never have a chance to begin with.

He doesnt know how to FH loop confidently against righty BH serves because he is still going against the spin rather with the spin (ie hook loop it a bit on the right side of the ball). The way he is doing, he will eat the effects of the incoming spin full on. This is why he never had the confidence to loop the serve even when it was blatantly going long. Also because he is afraid, he is doing half hearted opening loops which is even worse because you need explosiveness to cancel out the opponent's spin especially when going against the spin.

The funny thing is that against lefty BH pendulum he attempts to hook loop it (on the right) which is also similarly disastrous.

 

[Zezima]

As a righty, you do not want to FH hook loop any clockwise sidespin balls....just loop it on the back to avoid the sidespin otherwise the contact will be too difficult to time. Have posted a lot of these in various threads.

One thing i noticed is that you are not explosive when you recover your footwork after a stroke (even after pushing). This one is maybe a little difficult but you have to actively recover back to neutral to reset your position fast using the body to bring back your centre of gravity. If you watch pros they all do it even if they look super relaxed - the foot speed can be quite crazy. You got caught in bad body positions quite a few times because of not recovering fast enough.

Have to shadow this though. I do it now too to make my recovery as fast as possible.

How do you avoid the sidespin if you contact it at the back?

When the righty does this spin I have more confidence looping it compared to the leftys tomahawk or rights backhand serve
I know what you mean by recover. But I don´t think I can achieve that ever without proper coaching and training session dedicated to that. What I can work on is atleast after the first ball I can try to go recover faster but even that I struggle with because I don´t know where the ball is going to. I also don´t have the strength/energy to do it. Probably lack of practise and not eating properly...

 

[Zezima]

While I don't love the D09c/HL5 pairing the difference you're perceiving is all technical. I've tried a whole bunch of rubbers on the HL5/W968, the technique doesn't vary that much, just slight adjustments here and there.


Didn't you boost your first pair of D09cs? Are you still boosting? Hope you're not comparing between boosted and unboosted rubbers....

What don´t you like about it?
No never. Boosting is the reason I never tried H3 rubbers. My brother asked me to buy the W968 as my birthday gift. Not sure if thats too much for a racket I never tested before. But I think I saw people saying that its jsut a bit slower than my current HL5 and might be what I am looking for...

I can say with 99% certainty back then my D09c Rubber atleast on the FH felt much softer. Yesterday I trained in a different club also with much better players different ball different hall (normal temperature ~20-22°C) and the rubber felt much softer than before still hard though. Maybe the constant regluing affected it a lot because I didn´t get rid of the old glue on the rubber.