W968 National Question

[Zezima]

Guys I have something to tell you all. So basically I agreed on staying with D09c but let's be honest as a tall guy and someone with no consistent (better than me) trainingspartner I don't think I benefit too much with the D09c.
Just look at my footwork in the game. It's dogshiet. Yes I know I play much much better and active in training drills but when it comes to actual important games I just freeze more. I know what to do and be "springy" with my feets which works in drills but in matches it just feels like I am sick/no energy and proceed to entire go all out or full passive.
I also realized even though my loops got better (I use my body and snap faster with me arm) because this rubber forces me to do so. I neglected other aspects in my game like tactics placement and such. I got away with a good loop and they doing a mistake. But once the rubber wears out after 6months like this. I can't just take the easy route with the spin and win. Most of the times I don't even stand right for the next ball.

Someone who understands blade composition and what rubber would work in combination. What else could I give a shot? I have 4months left. It pains me to see I use a 160€ rubber that I don't use effective in an actual game.

I don't want something springy. I can generate enough power from my arm and body. So something slower would be nice aswell.

 

[jk1980]

i did not want to mention it in the other thread, but since you are coming to the realization yourself in here i think the dignics 09c does more harm than good. It's high requirement on precision and techniques make you lose your confidence in games too fast and you resort to being passive and not having the trust in your equipment and skill.

Often you get pushed away from the table just reacting and lobbing back balls you really should counter spin. This is totally understandable that you don't try to counter spin since your equipment is professional equipment that even some pros would find quite demanding to play. Of course you are not comfortable trying these shots with that equipment. Especially in matches where you want to win you will always resort to what intuitively feels like the more secure "bring the ball on the table".

The good thing for you is, that you will probably not find many rubbers that are technically more demanding (if we exclude unboosted Hurricane 3s or the like), so most of the things you would choose will be easier to play with.

The high throw of Dignics 09c also makes counter spinning more error prone, because of the more closed bat you probably want to use in these.

Some significantly easier to play rubbers that are basically a step or level easier to play with but still keeping some tackiness and great short game would be Rakza Z EH or Loki Arthur China. These two are not very far from each other and one could even argue that you could choose between them by your favourite throw/bat angle. Do you like the high throw angle of the dignics 09c, then you would rather go with Rakza Z Extra Hard, if you would like it to be lower than that you can go for Loki Arthur China. These rubbers are only 2 or 3 degrees softer than Dignics 09c, but i bet you would still feel the change in what that allows you to do.

 

[Zezima]

Rubbers are really confusing sometimes. First it has to work with the hardness of your blade. Then how subjective the opinion is on a said rubber. For example I keep hearing that d09c strength is the counterloop. Now you and some others say it's hard to do. I can't comment on this because I was never good at that particular shot and my technique makes me go more up and forwards so they fly out more.
Over the table I had more success countering but that only works in drills because in actual games I default to a safer shot as you said "bring the ball on the table" which is blocking for me.
When I look how he plays against me I can clearly see even though he could just block my loop he goes over the ball little so he has gained that confidence in his setup.
Yesterday in the Training I loop very consistent against loop and have the right timing and everything both with FH and BH. The ball has a nice arc and everything but then in an actual game all that good feeling leaves me quite quick if I loop just a tad over the table. This problem was bigger when I was playing with G1. So it feels like I am getting closer to the rubber I want.
somewhere else I also got recommended the victas TDE.


Also a summary of the last set. Because I think thats a good set to analyze in terms of what kind of mistakes I do and what nets me a good position/direct points. Because intuition comes into play and you do shots you think is the safest in a way.

1-0 after the first BH TS not netting me a point - Defaulting to passive play | confidence issue
1-1 pushing mistake after my serve | ignore this point
2-1 BH Counter on a weak high topspin to his elbow
2-2 missing the ball entirely on the receive FH
3-2 BH attack to his BH and he misses the ball
3-3 weak service gets attacked by him
3-4 He starts with a fast long serve I can only block till I block out
4-4 he tries again this time to my Elbow but it lands on my FH side that I loop he tries to "smash?"
4-5 unforced error by him -> I am not active | confidence issue
5-5 terrible service by me he places it into my FH I can only react
5-6 good FH attack parallel (he can only react) but also unexpected parallel block by him
6-6 I can only react to his loop and unforced error by him
6-7 opening mistake against long backspin with the FH - unforced error by me
6-8 I serve and then default to blocks in mid distance as if we are playing a Drill and I am the blocker lol | confidence issue
7-8 very safe receive with a BH-TS and then chopping with the FH, he misreads the spin
7-9 Totally missing the Ball on receive again with the FH
8-9 Very good 3rd Ball attack w my FH -> long in to the Backhand after my Backhand Serve
8-10 Tried a risky block to his wide FH went out - blocking mistake + confidence issue - his ball was def attackable
9-10 Prob my best point. Attacking 3 times consecutively with my FH - block error on 3rd by him | very confident
10-10 Survived his attacks got a weak ball back after a soft block which I finished with my FH | controlled with placement blocks and then took the opportunity to end it.
10-11 This was the key moment in the end. I took the shot and tried to attack but it went a few cm over the table. You can see me how I realized that I put too much in the ball
and how I tried to shorten the stroke in the end. | confidence issue (sign that for me the setup is too fast?)
11-11 Funny that I had the confidence to loop back to back w my FH against his serve after what has happened in the previous point. - my second best point | very confident
11-12 This is just me not realizing the parallel push against my serve (waited for the ball to come to my mid or backhand side) -> Ended up in the defense lobbing | Brain issue
11-13 I pivot his serve -> to his Backhand -> parallel block by him AGAIN -> I can only react -> parallel loop by him -> ended up in the defense lobbing
-> ATTACKED while in the defense he makes a lucky block hits the net I somehow bring it back but can't stand up in time to hit the next ball.

So last 2 Balls I would say I just didn't realize he was taking me out with these parallel balls. And I think he did these parallel balls many more times in the actual match. And I was hitting him a lot into his Backhand where he was confidently able to do these parallel blocks/pushes.


@jk1980 I have no clue about the high throw. I adjust my technique but on my FH I always had higher throw I think with the G1 and now D09c. Maybe because my balls tend to go out more it wouldn't be bad to go a bit lower throw? Or Maybe higher throw is still better because of the curve the ball has more chance to land back on the table?

 

[jk1980]

I would not go with the Victas TDE (even though i never tried it) simply because according to reviews it will require even more strength to activate it.

What you really want is a rubber that is not that picky about the bat angle so that your shot percentage counter looping increases even when you are not in a good position. This can be achieved by a softer sponge and softer topsheet.

The high throw angle becomes difficult, because the more you close the bat angle the less surface you have of the bat that could hit the ball. A very low throw angle would require you to open the bat much more and hit it more like you hitting a ball with a pan. obviously with this technique the ball would face more more bat surface on the strike than you closing the racket and decreasing the bat surface perpendicular to the ball path.

Having a lower throw than d09c is not difficult and yes simply you using a different less closed bat angle could increase the percentage of certain shots. RZEH and LAC fit into that category. Of course you could also go totally "nontacky" and use Victas V20 DE, which would be slower than D09c, but still quite spinny. That could make many of your shots going wide now hit the table.

 

[Migzkulit]

I would not go with the Victas TDE (even though i never tried it) simply because according to reviews it will require even more strength to activate it.

What you really want is a rubber that is not that picky about the bat angle so that your shot percentage counter looping increases even when you are not in a good position. This can be achieved by a softer sponge and softer topsheet.

The high throw angle becomes difficult, because the more you close the bat angle the less surface you have of the bat that could hit the ball. A very low throw angle would require you to open the bat much more and hit it more like you hitting a ball with a pan. obviously with this technique the ball would face more more bat surface on the strike than you closing the racket and decreasing the bat surface perpendicular to the ball path.

Having a lower throw than d09c is not difficult and yes simply you using a different less closed bat angle could increase the percentage of certain shots. RZEH and LAC fit into that category. Of course you could also go totally "nontacky" and use Victas V20 DE, which would be slower than D09c, but still quite spinny. That could make many of your shots going wide now hit the table.

V20 DE is sweet. Loved it on forehand, very simple rubber.

 

[Tyce]

If anything, you need to really rip that FH. If you feel it goes out too much, you're not putting enough spin in for the speed. Gotta unlock more magnus effect! Once you can do those with confidence in a game (and that's quite a threshold to get over!) it will be like magic.

 

[Zezima]

If anything, you need to really rip that FH. If you feel it goes out too much, you're not putting enough spin in for the speed. Gotta unlock more magnus effect! Once you can do those with confidence in a game (and that's quite a threshold to get over!) it will be like magic.

Do you think something that doesn't even work in training and having noone to correct your stroke aswell will work in an actual game?
In important games we do shots that feels safe to us what we practised the most basically.
And in Training they fly out aswell if the ball has a lot of energy or if I don't stand correct. I just want Plan B to work which is - a weaker forehand loop to stand in rally. But those tend to go out because d09c is so damn hard and uncontrollable on slow topspins

 

[Charlesmorris]

I thought I would add my experience as I was in a similar position to yourself as i use a golden grand slam w968 player edition. This blade has the highest power out of all the w968s. Then you’ve got d09c which is a very fast rubber once activated, I used that set up before and I played passive as it’s very unforgiving if your blade angle is incorrect or too much impact vs friction at ball contact. The best rubbers for this blade are boosted Neo 3, learn the process of boosting if needed, it’s very easy. But Neo 3 is the best rubber for this blade, you may find it slow if you do not use full body movement. But, it gives you the confidence to swing as hard as you can as the dwell is very high and allows more impact vs friction. I’ve had multiple blades and the w968 Neo 3 setup is very forgiving on the highest quality shots. High quality shots with fast rubbers require more friction vs impact, if you do more impact vs less friction, the ball will fly out the table very unforgiving as there’s less arc. Neo 3 allows more impact vs friction as it’s not a fast rubber. Plus in your training if you do the same loop with any set up, it’s very easy for the movement to become familiar/natural in that moment. In future training try to do one loop then one block/chop, can be anything but can’t be the same movement. A game you utilise different strokes, so train how you would perform in a game.

 

[Tyce]

Do you think something that doesn't even work in training and having noone to correct your stroke aswell will work in an actual game?
In important games we do shots that feels safe to us what we practised the most basically.
And in Training they fly out aswell if the ball has a lot of energy or if I don't stand correct. I just want Plan B to work which is - a weaker forehand loop to stand in rally. But those tend to go out because d09c is so damn hard and uncontrollable on slow topspins

I think you're correct that it's too hard. In my opinion you're missing a link in developing a real spinny loop and that's in the fine line where you hit, engage sponge and throw that ball out spinning.
It's easier to learn that using softer rubber, and stepping up gradually. The jump from G1 to D09c is quite a lot in terms of harder sponge.

That being said, it could also be a wise move to stick with it now that you are familiar with the basics of the rubber.

I understand your situation sounds discouraging, but I have been developing this stuff mostly by myself even if I have the resources available if I want.
Basically I use 90% of my practice match attention to try and hit the technique I am developing. Yes that means I lose a lot of practice games but I learn so much.

Multiball or some robot action putting focus on generating that whippy cracky sound - and learning to do so consistently - can be very helpful.
At first it might be easier to get there using big strokes, but since those are literally harder to control you'll want to bring the size down and focus more on acceleration instead. Compacting your stroke while retaining the right moment to accelerate might be enough to get that Dignics under control.

If you are looking for a middle ground between D09c and G1 (when you really feel you are too strong for it) I would suggest T05, D05 or T05h. Those are all a little bit softer than the D09c and should be easier to activate while being a step up from G1.

 

[Zezima]

I think you're correct that it's too hard. In my opinion you're missing a link in developing a real spinny loop and that's in the fine line where you hit, engage sponge and throw that ball out spinning.
It's easier to learn that using softer rubber, and stepping up gradually. The jump from G1 to D09c is quite a lot in terms of harder sponge.

That being said, it could also be a wise move to stick with it now that you are familiar with the basics of the rubber.

I understand your situation sounds discouraging, but I have been developing this stuff mostly by myself even if I have the resources available if I want.
Basically I use 90% of my practice match attention to try and hit the technique I am developing. Yes that means I lose a lot of practice games but I learn so much.

Multiball or some robot action putting focus on generating that whippy cracky sound - and learning to do so consistently - can be very helpful.
At first it might be easier to get there using big strokes, but since those are literally harder to control you'll want to bring the size down and focus more on acceleration instead. Compacting your stroke while retaining the right moment to accelerate might be enough to get that Dignics under control.

If you are looking for a middle ground between D09c and G1 (when you really feel you are too strong for it) I would suggest T05, D05 or T05h. Those are all a little bit softer than the D09c and should be easier to activate while being a step up from G1.

When I first made the switch from G1 to D09c I didn't feel any difference other than I was better in the short game with the D09c. But looping against block I had the same quality if I looped slower G1 had more spin.
My technique seems shiet aswell. I have too closed of a racket I don't know how to hit the ball properly and that gives me the insecurity in the actual match.
When I do multiball or just drills where the ball is falling has some backspin on it- I can easily whip it (because I have the tendency to loop the ball up always) and it goes just over the net perfect on the other side. But here in this match I didn't have that opportunity at all it was always against some sort of block or drive. I can't generate a lot of Topspin agianst those balls with my FH which seems easy for him to block parallel.
Do I just work on opening my racket more go down 20-30% on power when looping and engage the sponge more and not just loop with the topsheet?

I also have 4months till season starts and I can test something like Rakza EH or C55 or g09c to see if I loop easier with it?

 

[jk1980]

if it is only about looping easier in general i would not go for C55 or g09c, the former i did not test but the pure hardness would not make much of a difference (even though different enough in characteristics from the d09c). The g09c will indeed make you land more shots on the table, because it has way less power, but it is still a hard sponge rubber, so not very nice to play tbh.
It really depends on how much easier it should get.
Wanna have it a little easier then go for Rakza Z EH or Loki Arthur China. These two are still quite powerful rubbers and you will not be lacking in spin and not in power (especially not with the w968). If you wanna go even more easy there is still the Rakza Z (but that one could bottom out too easy on hard shots if you dont brush properly).

If you are willing to just overpower your opponent with constant looping over and over and hitting the table from every position i think the safest and most easy way to tame a blade that is probably "too fast" for you would be the "Vega Pro H", because it is only 47.5° (might feel a little harder than that, but worlds softer than d09c).
It is really the question what you are willing to give up for more shots landing on the table.

By watching your match i would not tinker with your backhand though, because changing forehand and backhand at the same time would be too much of a change and your backhand play is decent enough currently irc. Another benefit of keeping the backhand d09c is that you can twist the blade and directly compare the d09c with whatever rubber you are trying out at that time.

good luck

 

[Zezima]

Those rubbers are not available in the shop that I can buy with a discount so sadly I can't try them out. g09c looks like what might work for me. Sure its not gonna be that much easier but its gonna be easier from what I read. It's also cheaper so nothing lost if its not gonna work. Other Tensor rubbers give too much power themselves which I really don't need. They are good on a slower blade but not on something what I play I think.
I will def keep the backhand as it is and just work on using it more in a match

 

[jk1980]

i don't know why you are so adamant on buying the rubber on a discount. Butterfly you surely dont get a discount (at least that is the policy in germany) and the other rubbers might be cheaper in the first place than the other options.
A Xiom Vega Pro H is 47€, Rakza Z and Z Extra Hard are 51€, Victas V20DE is 56€ on tabletennis11.com, but if you really want to make sure not to burn too much money, just get an Loki Arthur China (Orange packaging) for 20€. You literally can not go wrong with that one. It will be more controllable than dig09c for sure. If it is enough control for you is up to you, but it is really a bargain.
Just google "loki arthur china" and use one of the topmost aliexpress links to order one (orange packaging) for about 20€.

 

[Tyce]

Vega Pro isn't all that different from G1, I'd suggest Vega X for less bounciness but even then I think that if Zezima doesn't want to use G1 the Vega rubbers aren't going to work either.

Going from Butterfly to Loki... That's quite a large step in quality control. Might as well pop H3 Neo commercial on then.

 

[jk1980]

Vega Pro is very different from "Vega Pro H".
The question is why you would only want to buy from a local store. If it is about them glueing the rubber onto the blade i could probably understand it but if you are capable glueing yourself then there is nothing wrong ordering online for a better price.

Why i would not recommend DHS Hurricane to Zezima is that without boosting its very lacklustre and an instant -10 on performance with non perfect technique. With all that doubt about his equipment there is no point with him trying to boost it, then playing it, then doubting if it was properly boosted or if he should have done something else, then taking the rubber off, reboosting it, again being unsure if what he did was correct.

In germany boosting is not allowed and i could very well imagine that it is the same for austria, so no point in trying something very risky that is not allowed.

 

[Tyce]

It's not allowed anywhere, at all, according to ITTF rules.

 

[jk1980]

It's not allowed anywhere, at all, according to ITTF rules.

if we want to be picky, you dont play to ITTF rules, but rather the local league association's rules which may mirror the ITTF rules, but are not necessarily the same. If you are not playing internationally that is .

 

[Tyce]

if we want to be picky, you dont play to ITTF rules, but rather the local league association's rules which may mirror the ITTF rules, but are not necessarily the same. If you are not playing internationally that is .

Of course I don't know about all national associations, but here the rulebook states in various parts that materials for example are only allowed as per ITTF rules
To me that makes sense, but then again, it may be different in other countries.

 

[Zezima]

I think one of my bigger problem right now is the mental aspect of attacking a ball in any position I am in.
My successrate when I am in position is 70% if I am in position. Now this % goes down the harder I want to attack.
Then there are balls where I am not quite right in position. Successrate for those depending on how bad I am standing for the ball under 50% so my brain goes like -> do some sort of a weak drive or push? it jsut above net somehow -> basically a passive shot.
Same goes for balls where my opponent did a weak forehand topspin. I don't want to look stupid and attack his weak topspin and miss it when the % of blocking and waiting for a weak block/ball back by him which rarely ever happened in that match.
I basically need a big mindset change I think. I know this looks like not a rubber issue but maybe with a tuned down rubber I get that urge to counter these balls and attack them more because my hit rate even when not standing perfect goes up by a lot?
A friend has some ESN Rubbers at home like R48 a bit used that I will give a try. I also want to buy a glayzer 09c and now thinking about a vega or a victas rubber because we get 30% off from the shop. Thats why I want to order it there.

 

[jk1980]

R48 will be easier to spin, yes, but much less controlled in the short game. It is perhaps wise if you can start testing that soon to know if you actually want to go back to the "regular springy tensor" rubbers.

if you get discount on victas, then go for victas v20 double extra. That is basically at least 2 levels of more control compared to dignics 09c.
if money is an issue and you want to get started testing very soon i could send you a red Loki Arthur China (still sealed in package) from Germany to Austria (for whatever it costs) for 25€ plus parcel coming week.