Damien Éloi: Are the top players’ rubbers different?

[piligrim]

that is why i'm using tires.

if you think pro racers can use normal tires for the same performance as pro racing tires, it means you don't understand racing too.

while you can buy Ma Long pro version rubbers.
it sure isn't catered for your needs, where tire companies can tailor designs and productions for its F1 and other racing teams.

To think that there are people that think companies will not do special treatment for their "elite" team - which represent the companies quality and performance ability, to me is just a big shock.
never the less, I have seen with my own eyes with players I managed and also know enough people in the likes of DHS and CNT to know a bit of these "hidden" stories.

having said that, I'm not sure if Shell's Vpower fuel is the same. I do think it is marketing and I do think the elite still gets elite quality products.

Its not correct to compare racing cars and rackets. Its complete different things

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Its not correct to compare racing cars and rackets. Its complete different things

one thing is the same - grip.

and both are rubbers, but to me, table tennis one just cost way more than car tires (when you factor in price per mass).
both also comes with technology in its expensive piece of rubber.

so the grip/technology is the foundation of its performance factor and will differ to less/lower quality products in terms of performance ability.

ok, that is 3 things, lol

 

[zeio]

DHS seems to be doing that...

"What are the differences in performance between national sets, provincial sets, and hurricane sets? What are the common specifications for national team members? What is the difference between star national sets and national sets?
National hurricane sets, provincial hurricane sets, and general hurricane sets use the same formula. The main difference between the three is the tolerance accuracy of the indicators. For example, the hardness requirements of national team athletes can be accurate to 0.5 degrees and the thickness can be accurate to 0.05mm, so the detection tolerance range of national sets is smaller. The detection tolerance range for general athletes is slightly relaxed.
In addition, in different periods, top-notch players such as Ma Long will have different requirements for the viscosity of the rubber or the hardness of the sponge, which requires fine-tuning. Therefore, there are slight differences in the national sets of different stars, and there are also differences in the same star player in different technical cycles or event cycles...."
"Handbook of DHS T.T. Products (in Chinese language).pdf" https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1xss4XdArxyhyyifUyy3y2tzR3AC6zGlT

Viscosity of the rubber (= tackiness of the top sheet) answers the question why H3 has been getting less and less tacky.

Same for blades.

秦志戬 “精雕细琢”出马龙：他与球拍“人拍合一”
http://sports.sina.com.cn/others/pingpang/2019-07-27/doc-ihytcerm6557633.shtml

　　人拍合一

　　告别国际赛场8个月后，教练组给马龙报名参加卡塔尔公开赛，临行前的一晚，秦志戬带着红双喜研究所副所长王志信，一同来到了马龙的房间里。只见他拿着卡尺，亲自帮马龙测量底板的宽窄、高低，是否符合马龙的要求。

　　“对乒乓球运动员来说，球拍就是他们手中的武器，武器选好了，才能在赛场上‘大杀四方’。”这是秦志戬的观点。选好武器后，还要同它进行磨合，去试它的弹性，找到人和球拍的契合度了，这块球拍就活了。

　　带着这块球拍，马龙复出的第一站，便取得了卡塔尔公开赛的冠军，当时的功力，他只恢复了七成。一个月后，当他以个人历史最低种子排名（11号种子）来到布达佩斯后，成为了继庄则栋后，第二个在世乒赛上取得男单三连冠的球员。

　　其实，在每一块马龙用过的球拍上，秦志戬都倾注了大量的心血。“在马龙的运动生涯里，还没有发生过在比赛前球拍出现问题的情况。”他这样形容马龙和球拍的关系：“人拍合一”。

　　精选底板

　　秦志戬相信，球拍是有灵性的。对于红双喜球拍的执着，始于他6岁打球开始的第一块球拍。这之后，红双喜的器材，他没离过手。

　　有一块他用了14年的球拍，至今保存在家里的储藏室里，这是他最珍贵的宝贝，谁都不能碰。凭借这块球拍，他夺得了1994年世界杯男团冠军和2001年世乒赛混双冠军。“球拍用的时间越长，就越有味道。因为击球的感觉、控制力，都让我觉得很顺手。”

　　里约奥运周期一开始，为了让马龙对球拍有更深的了解，秦志戬带他专门去了趟上海的红双喜总部的球拍厂，参观原材料木材的制作过程，亲自挑选适合他的底板。

　　“木材有很多讲究，比如底板上是否有木痂。而且，南北方气候差异大，因为湿度的问题，会对球拍的软硬度有不同的影响。”在球拍厂，秦志戬带着马龙参观了烘干球拍的恒温室，随后，他向王志信提出为马龙特制一块球拍。

　　正是凭借这块球拍，马龙创造了56连胜的奇迹，并在里约奥运赛场登顶大满贯。

第一动力
https://news.sina.cn/sa/2006-03-25/detail-ikknscsi9877783.d.html

上世纪八十年代后期，日本蝴蝶、瑞典斯的卡等国外厂商的乒乓拍底板涌进国门，以良好的控制性、运动员上手就能打等优势，取代了红双喜底板，成为中国专业乒乓球队的首选。2003年，红双喜公司决定夺回底板的优势地位。研究所专家针对王励勤打球特点研制了几块底板，没想到巴黎世乒赛男单决赛中，王励勤使用这个底板却输给了瑞典选手施拉格。2004年底，王励勤打电话给研究所所长张振宇，让红双喜给他做几块“控制大”的底板。

可什么是“控制大”呢？为了“破译”王励勤等国家队球员的感觉口语，研究所花大价钱制作了一台模拟击球底板测试系统，经过成千上万次模拟测试，总算把球员们的感觉口语一一对应成了可量化的技术参数———“控制大”是要求球在底板上停留时间足够长，让球员有充足时间手上做功对球施加影响；“底劲足”是球离开底板一刹那的初速度，底劲越足击出去的球速越快等等。
在测试系统的指引下，研究所对王励勤专用底板先后进行了几十次改进。2005年上海第48届世乒赛上，王励勤用千锤百炼制成的这块乒乓底板夺取了男单世界冠军，红双喜“狂飚王”底板亦一战成名，一经推出，市场价被抬升到1200元一块。

 

[piligrim]

one thing is the same - grip.

and both are rubbers, but to me, table tennis one just cost way more than car tires (when you factor in price per mass).
both also comes with technology in its expensive piece of rubber.

so the grip/technology is the foundation of its performance factor and will differ to less/lower quality products in terms of performance ability.

ok, that is 3 things, lol

What about soccer players? They play much better then us because they using special treated ball? ))
Chess players use special made pieces?

 

[ttarc]

you are right
zeio is posting 10 year old things.

the production volume of national rubbers now compared to 10 years ago is thousand fold increase.
The quality is much better and it is widely available for resellers to purchase and resell.
10 years ago, it was forbidden and can only get via provincial teams.

However, even today ,the quality given to Provincial teams (and higher) are fresher and higher quality.
i have noticed that and there are rumours certain codes on the rubber are the "pro" national versions

other than "spec", I also want to emphasis of freshness of the rubber.
a 1 month old, vs 1 year old rubber performance is also very difference (as in rubber sitting on the shelf and opened after 1 month or 1 year).

I have had European pros making an offer to me to buy my "1 month old" rubbers. Some of them say, they normally only get 4 to 6 month old products.

you are right.
the players do request changes very often.
most times due to the match conditions.
It is so technical that, to me, even keep grasps on it is a headache.
This is why there is one full time DHS staff that manages all the CNT players rubbers (orders)

DHS does make a "generic" Pro player version for sale.

Just to clarify: That's what DHS wrote and Google translated.

I think the Formula 1 analogy might be closer to reality than other comparisons.
1. They have a lot of rules and regulations
2. Every team tries to tweak the cars, tires etc. as much as possible to get an edge over the competition
3. Sometimes teams get caught when breaking the rules e.g. "What started with Red Bull accusing McLaren of implementing an inappropriately flexible rear wing flap in Baku escalated into McLaren alleging that Red Bull was utilizing an illegal component designed to adjust the height of the underbody of its car... Now, a new report from German publication Auto Motor und Sport states that Red Bull is alleging McLaren is manipulating the rules again — this time by adding a small amount of water into its tires in order to help with cooling." https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-tyre-trick-accusation-fia-investigation

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Just to clarify: That's what DHS wrote and Google translated.

I think the Formula 1 analogy might be closer to reality than other comparisons.
1. They have a lot of rules and regulations
2. Every team tries to tweak the cars, tires etc. as much as possible to get an edge over the competition
3. Sometimes teams get caught when breaking the rules e.g. "What started with Red Bull accusing McLaren of implementing an inappropriately flexible rear wing flap in Baku escalated into McLaren alleging that Red Bull was utilizing an illegal component designed to adjust the height of the underbody of its car... Now, a new report from German publication Auto Motor und Sport states that Red Bull is alleging McLaren is manipulating the rules again — this time by adding a small amount of water into its tires in order to help with cooling." https://www.planetf1.com/news/mclaren-tyre-trick-accusation-fia-investigation

yes.
I know a person who is in DHS management - I was very close to be "contracted" to work for DHS during the Durban WTTC.

companies will do everything to aid its elite when comes to performances.
This includes even the likes of shoes.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

What about soccer players? They play much better then us because they using special treated ball? ))
Chess players use special made pieces?

i think you should go watch some documentaries on what shoes does for athletes.
both running and soccer and maybe do searches with keywords on technology

if you think shoe is shoe and no technology is involved, then I have nothing further to add, unless you willing to pay me course fees on these knowledge

 

[piligrim]

i think you should go watch some documentaries on what shoes does for athletes.
both running and soccer and maybe do searches with keywords on technology

if you think shoe is shoe and no technology is involved, then I have nothing further to add, unless you willing to pay me course fees on these knowledge

Every soccer player has personal made shoes? I understand shoes are important. I don't think Maradona become soccer star because he had special made shoes. After maybe he got personal made shoes but not shoes made him unique player. He was better then others way before he got special shoes from sponsors

 

[boretennis]

Every soccer player has personal made shoes? I understand shoes are important. I don't think Maradona become soccer star because he had special made shoes. After maybe he got personal made shoes but not shoes made him unique player. He was better then others way before he got special shoes from sponsors

no, it is more like IF you are maradonna, then some little special tweaks on the shoes will make a difference. it wouldn't make YOU play like maradonna obviously.

 

[Gtsnake]

But why would they not sell it to the public? Makes no sense.

Because amateur players wouldn't' be able to take advantage of it and wouldn't want to pay a lot of money for something that last a week.

 

[Gtsnake]

I don't know who is Max Verstappen and why he will smoke in your car ...

hahaha

He's a professional smoker.

 

[kapahoo]

Because amateur players wouldn't' be able to take advantage of it and wouldn't want to pay a lot of money for something that last a week.

I think they do. Very much. But its just speculation of course. Mainly based on what people (myself included!)buy now. Way to fast and expensive equipment just becauce it is what the best players in the world use. I mean, people pay more for Fan Zs blade than a Viscaria (which from the start is very expensive) even though the manufacturer more or less say they are the same.

 

[Gtsnake]

Ok, If you don't like the F1 comparison how about golf? Do you think pro golfers use the same equipment as everyone else? Hell no. Those clubs are custom fitted to every player through countless hours of tuning. I watched a story when Tiger Woods was evaluating a new club from Nike. He was given 3 clubs that were supposedly the same and he said one was like 1/2 degree off. The manufacturer guys were stunned. He was so sensitive he could pick it out after hitting like 5 balls.

 

[piligrim]

Ok, If you don't like the F1 comparison how about golf? Do you think pro golfers use the same equipment as everyone else? Hell no. Those clubs are custom fitted to every player through countless hours of tuning. I watched a story when Tiger Woods was evaluating a new club from Nike. He was given 3 clubs that were supposedly the same and he said one was like 1/2 degree off. The manufacturer guys were stunned. He was so sensitive he could pick it out after hitting like 5 balls.

I have no clue about golf so can't argue about it

 

[kapahoo]

Pretty sure basketball balls are the ones you can buy in a store even in pro games. Or footballs. These analogies doesn't give anything.
Tiger might be picky but John Daly was drunk all the time...

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I have no clue about golf so can't argue about it

no disrespect, but what sports do you have clue in, so we can use a sport that you know about to try and make a comparison.

PS,
Nike - pre Nike days was called Blue Ribbon, and sold Japanese running shoes (today known as asics) that could give athletes some extra time. You can read up about it.
I guess the same example for shoes can be used in swimming with wet suits.
technology has been in sports for many years.
If you think this is not true, then will ma long beat timo boll when using a 1 star bat from the retail shop? a racket with absolutely no technology in the blade or sponge/topsheet.

So where can I send you my invoice to charge you for these information

 

[piligrim]

no disrespect, but what sports do you have clue in, so we can use a sport that you know about to try and make a comparison.

Table tennis )))

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Table tennis )))

you got a lot to learn
i'm changing to prepaid

 

[piligrim]

If you think this is not true, then will ma long beat timo boll when using a 1 star bat from the retail shop? a racket with absolutely no technology in the blade or sponge/topsheet.

So where can I send you my invoice to charge you for these information

We not talking about 1 star bat. don't change subject. If Ma Long will play with D09C as all of us he for sure will beat Timo Boll. He is GOAT because of his skills, not because DHS tuned his rubbers

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

We not talking about 1 star bat. don't change subject. If Ma Long will play with D09C as all of us he for sure will beat Timo Boll. He is GOAT because of his skills, not because DHS tuned his rubbers

1 star bat and D09C/H3 personal, is difference in technology.
do you agree?