Europe Smash Sweden August 14-24 2025

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I agree that Hashimoto didn't have a chance against SYS in Yokohama, but it was a close match against WMY in Malmo imo. If WMY has a bad day and Hashimoto is in top form, Hashimoto can win against her.
The match had to be closer than that for me to feel that way. I felt that the match was always on Wang Manyu's racket. She sometimes struggles against choppers but she reliably wins. The weirdest part was that she didn't use her backhand as much as she could have. Hashimoto would have develop more point winning dynamics for me to feel the way you do.
 
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The match had to be closer than that for me to feel that way. I felt that the match was always on Wang Manyu's racket. She sometimes struggles against choppers but she reliably wins. The weirdest part was that she didn't use her backhand as much as she could have. Hashimoto would have develop more point winning dynamics for me to feel the way you do.
That's a fair assessment and my view might be somewhat rose colored. In any event, I am looking forward to China Smash and the subsequent tournaments and will follow them more closely than usual -- especially Hashimoto's matches against CNT members.

On an unrelated note, we have seen many interesting story lines this year (in no particular order), which makes the tournaments more exciting to watch (at least for me):
  • Hugo winning the World Cup in Macao
  • Hashimoto's rise
  • Zhu Yuling winning US Smash
  • Duda's improvement and cracking the Top 10
  • Harimoto winning Champions Yokohama
  • Truls winning Europe Smash
  • Winter cracking the Top 30
 
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This is really good it is not boring as it has already happened especially in male TT. Last semi-finals, only LSD was from China even from Asia, no one from JPN, Taiwan, HKG, etc... the rest was from Europe. It was really amazing how rest of the world caught up Asia nowadays.
For the viewers' enjoyment this is definitely an advantage!
In women TT there is still Asia dominance, In Female semi-finals 3 out of 4 were from China and only 1 from Japan.
I hope it will also change.
 
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This is really good it is not boring as it has already happened especially in male TT. Last semi-finals, only LSD was from China even from Asia, no one from JPN, Taiwan, HKG, etc... the rest was from Europe. It was really amazing how rest of the world caught up Asia nowadays.
For the viewers' enjoyment this is definitely an advantage!
In women TT there is still Asia dominance, In Female semi-finals 3 out of 4 were from China and only 1 from Japan.
I hope it will also change.
Well you had better hope Kaufman, Grieschel and Pavade develop superpowers. Otherwise, Japan and China and Korea are too far ahead. Though I can see Germany competing with Korea. The others not so sure. Hong Kong seems to be falling off the map with no replenishment on the women's side so it will soon be like Singapore I expect. Chinese Taipei should replace Hong Kong as they are developing players. But maybe there are other things I do not know.
 
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I'm not keen to go into economics, but do you want pro tt players to only play national team and no more clubs?
which sport has shown success in this model?
How many clubs that you know can attract sponsors big enough to pay their players serious figures?

I wouldn't kill the club segment, but our sport can't survive without a pro circuit like WTT. Whether or not WTT in its current form is the optimal solution is another thing entirely.
 
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How many clubs that you know can attract sponsors big enough to pay their players serious figures?

I wouldn't kill the club segment, but our sport can't survive without a pro circuit like WTT. Whether or not WTT in its current form is the optimal solution is another thing entirely.
there are so many players world ranked 50 to 200, that takes income from the club to breakeven they table tennis livelihood. Yes, some of them also have personal sponsors (like gov, or other subsidies), but club is a big portion.

Many players in this range also takes income from the club to take part in WTT.
right now, club is the majority income stream for many professionals.

If you include Koreans and Japanese players - they also have teams/clubs that pay them salaries.

Then countries like Taiwan, India, China, are state or state owned companies paying salaries (Taiwan is some players, India is more players than Taiwan, China is the most for sure).

So to answer your question - the advantage of clubs on table tennis is way bigger than you think.

I think WTT is too many events, too little money/ranking point - and the worse is the ranking point expires in 12 months - so it becomes a cycle - burning money cycle and the lucky ones will get points, and the unlucky ones will loose points in this cycle.

You need to remember, the players lifespan is short, some some year they can't save any money (and have loss points), this is a big problem.

You need to be in the Smash/Champions space to have some WTT money (and points).
Contender not enough, feeders is a joke.
the fact is, many players self fund to WTT and need some income to cover the costs, and clubs is one part solution. The other part solution is to find a full time job - and that will kill table tennis for sure.
 
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Well you had better hope Kaufman, Grieschel and Pavade develop superpowers. Otherwise, Japan and China and Korea are too far ahead. Though I can see Germany competing with Korea. The others not so sure. Hong Kong seems to be falling off the map with no replenishment on the women's side so it will soon be like Singapore I expect. Chinese Taipei should replace Hong Kong as they are developing players. But maybe there are other things I do not know.
It's "Kaufmann" and "Griesel" (sorry). Germany also has some younger talents, especially Itagaki and maybe Neumann, but I agree that they won't be up to the Asian level as a team.

How about Macao though??
 
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Yes - 151 to be exact :)
haha, your maths is good, better than tensorbackhand.

but i also know players in top 50 that rely on club income too.
there isn't any rich table tennis players to be honest (if we take out the Asian celebrities)
 
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It's "Kaufmann" and "Griesel" (sorry). Germany also has some younger talents, especially Itagaki and maybe Neumann, but I agree that they won't be up to the Asian level as a team.

How about Macao though??
What's the Macao team and what events do they play in?
 
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What's the Macao team and what events do they play in?

I think I read that Zhu Yuling went to Macao to work as a coach (with the blessing of CTTA), and was persuaded by her students to compete again. So the future team could be ZYL and the players she now inspires and coaches!
 
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I think I read that Zhu Yuling went to Macao to work as a coach (with the blessing of CTTA), and was persuaded by her students to compete again. So the future team could be ZYL and the players she now inspires and coaches!
no, you got it wrong
she was working in Tianjian university as an associate professor and also coached the table tennis team there.

She applied to Macau's talent admission scheme and got in

she is Dr Zhu, since she has a phd.
 
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OK, thanks. So no team in Macao currently? Can other Chinese players move there to form a team with Zhu?
 
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I think I read that Zhu Yuling went to Macao to work as a coach (with the blessing of CTTA), and was persuaded by her students to compete again. So the future team could be ZYL and the players she now inspires and coaches!
Okay. Let's wait for that to become realist and for Macao to field a team. Right now, I see Macao more as a vehicle for Zhu Yuling to play on tour. Anything in the near future will come from other citizens of high level countries joining her and not the development of local players.
 
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there are so many players world ranked 50 to 200, that takes income from the club to breakeven they table tennis livelihood. Yes, some of them also have personal sponsors (like gov, or other subsidies), but club is a big portion.

Many players in this range also takes income from the club to take part in WTT.
right now, club is the majority income stream for many professionals.

If you include Koreans and Japanese players - they also have teams/clubs that pay them salaries.

Then countries like Taiwan, India, China, are state or state owned companies paying salaries (Taiwan is some players, India is more players than Taiwan, China is the most for sure).

So to answer your question - the advantage of clubs on table tennis is way bigger than you think.

I think WTT is too many events, too little money/ranking point - and the worse is the ranking point expires in 12 months - so it becomes a cycle - burning money cycle and the lucky ones will get points, and the unlucky ones will loose points in this cycle.

You need to remember, the players lifespan is short, some some year they can't save any money (and have loss points), this is a big problem.

You need to be in the Smash/Champions space to have some WTT money (and points).
Contender not enough, feeders is a joke.
the fact is, many players self fund to WTT and need some income to cover the costs, and clubs is one part solution. The other part solution is to find a full time job - and that will kill table tennis for sure.
OI agree - without clubs this soon becomes a very washed out pro sports. Sweden and Denmark would have no truls, no Källberg, Falck, Lind and so forth without successful clubs. For further development the participation in German and French high level clubs have been very important. just to develop within WTT is probably not possible - to expensive traveling only.
 
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there are so many players world ranked 50 to 200, that takes income from the club to breakeven they table tennis livelihood. Yes, some of them also have personal sponsors (like gov, or other subsidies), but club is a big portion.

Many players in this range also takes income from the club to take part in WTT.
right now, club is the majority income stream for many professionals.

If you include Koreans and Japanese players - they also have teams/clubs that pay them salaries.

Then countries like Taiwan, India, China, are state or state owned companies paying salaries (Taiwan is some players, India is more players than Taiwan, China is the most for sure).

So to answer your question - the advantage of clubs on table tennis is way bigger than you think.

I think WTT is too many events, too little money/ranking point - and the worse is the ranking point expires in 12 months - so it becomes a cycle - burning money cycle and the lucky ones will get points, and the unlucky ones will loose points in this cycle.

You need to remember, the players lifespan is short, some some year they can't save any money (and have loss points), this is a big problem.

You need to be in the Smash/Champions space to have some WTT money (and points).
Contender not enough, feeders is a joke.
the fact is, many players self fund to WTT and need some income to cover the costs, and clubs is one part solution. The other part solution is to find a full time job - and that will kill table tennis for sure.
I'm actually interested in the economics here. First of all, how do the clubs generate revenue when the WTT doesn't/can't? The problem is that playing WTT events alone isn't enough to sustain a singles career outside of the top 50ish players, and playing for clubs to pay the bills takes a lot of time, wear on the body, travel and associated expenses, etc. At the same time, all of the club/league events don't give any rankings points. The end result is that all of the players outside the top 50ish are spread too thin.

One seeming (partial?) solution to me is to have some consolidation/merger between the WTT and several of the big leagues/clubs, where the WTT can now take the club/league income, organize some centralized and consolidated events, and create a singles ranking system which rewards the new "league" results. The resulting format could basically replace or supplement the current Feeder system.

Perhaps this isn't possible, because the club revenue relies on something that would be destroyed by merging with the WTT. On the other hand, this is roughly the same thing that happened in professional tennis over the course of the 1970s and 80s. There were a number of competing circuits (analogous to "leagues") which gradually merged and consolidated to form a single professional tour.
 
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I'm actually interested in the economics here. First of all, how do the clubs generate revenue when the WTT doesn't/can't?
clubs have a budget they need to raise every season/year.
and for the amount of teams they have (ie a team gets x amount, b team gets x amount).

and they have an expense budget and from there knowing how much they can pay players and other costs (traveling, hotel, venue etc).
Its a business, income and expense.
They sell tickets and merchandise and have sponsors.

The problem is that playing WTT events alone isn't enough to sustain a singles career outside of the top 50ish players, and playing for clubs to pay the bills takes a lot of time, wear on the body, travel and associated expenses, etc. At the same time, all of the club/league events don't give any rankings points. The end result is that all of the players outside the top 50ish are spread too thin.
WTT isn't about players income, it is about world ranking.
with all due respect to WTT, ITTF world championships, world cup and olympic games is the "grand slam". WTT is just for ranking points and ranking position - seeding. WTT replaced the ITTF World Tour series, but with that, they spent so much on branding and have more than double the events now.

One seeming (partial?) solution to me is to have some consolidation/merger between the WTT and several of the big leagues/clubs, where the WTT can now take the club/league income, organize some centralized and consolidated events, and create a singles ranking system which rewards the new "league" results. The resulting format could basically replace or supplement the current Feeder system.
why the heck should clubs pay money to WTT?
this is like asking NBA basketball teams to give some money to FIBA. So should all basketball leagues in the world require to pay money? is this like a tax? This is very wrong, what does clubs get in return from ITTF/FIBA? nothing?

The problem is WTT is trying to do too many things.
why have 100 events a year, when they can have 50 events with more quality? they are spreading too thin themselves.

any business who has too many products, will struggle with quality on all of them.
Apple comes out with 1 product and focus on it.
Asus comes out with a gazillion and confuses its own resellers.

Perhaps this isn't possible, because the club revenue relies on something that would be destroyed by merging with the WTT. On the other hand, this is roughly the same thing that happened in professional tennis over the course of the 1970s and 80s. There were a number of competing circuits (analogous to "leagues") which gradually merged and consolidated to form a single professional tour.

club finance is to look after the clubs.
if each club does the same, then you can have a league
of course richer clubs can have stronger teams.

clubs and international is too different things. one is domestic, one is international.

I feel, the international body needs to realize, you don't need 15 major events a year to "promote the sport".
I see no reason why we need so many events, other than forcing participation.

I think they are trying too hard to force players to do the one and not the other.
I would want a balance life, where we can have the best of both worlds.
 
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1) Was this final the best TT game you ever saw? it was the best I ever saw but I'm new to the sport.

2) What EXACTLY gave Truls the home court advantage in your opinion? Is the really the crowd? because that can also add pressure. Is the knocking the location? used to the tables? what exactly do you believe help him in Malmo?
1. the best is yet to come

2. everything
 
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why the heck should clubs pay money to WTT?
this is like asking NBA basketball teams to give some money to FIBA. So should all basketball leagues in the world require to pay money? is this like a tax? This is very wrong, what does clubs get in return from ITTF/FIBA? nothing?
The idea is that the WTT would buy the clubs/leagues, either outright or in part. The club, or really its owners, would get a load of cash up front, and the WTT would own at least some share of the revenue going forward, and its ownership would allow it to organize/limit events.

The economics of sports leagues is often like this -- there is a tendency for everyone to suffer when there are multiple leagues competing against each other, because it makes everyone's product worse. Every league has to put on their own events to make money, leading to too many events, which reduces the value of tickets and sponsorships. At the same time, players are potentially split across multiple leagues, which dilutes the matches between top players which are the biggest attractions, further reducing the value of tickets and sponsorships.

This is why mergers are very natural among sports leagues. It allows a consolidated league to:
1. Get all the top players together under one format
2. Limit the number of events
3. Raise the overall quality of events

With the idea being to make a better product and in the end raise more revenue by being able to charge more for tickets and sponsorships.

But in order for this to happen one of the leagues has to buy out the other ones, or at least they need to all come together and figure out an arrangement where they are sharing revenue so there isn't an incentive for each league to hold its own events and undercut the overall product.
 
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The idea is that the WTT would buy the clubs/leagues, either outright or in part. The club, or really its owners, would get a load of cash up front, and the WTT would own at least some share of the revenue going forward, and its ownership would allow it to organize/limit events.

The economics of sports leagues is often like this -- there is a tendency for everyone to suffer when there are multiple leagues competing against each other, because it makes everyone's product worse. Every league has to put on their own events to make money, leading to too many events, which reduces the value of tickets and sponsorships. At the same time, players are potentially split across multiple leagues, which dilutes the matches between top players which are the biggest attractions, further reducing the value of tickets and sponsorships.

This is why mergers are very natural among sports leagues. It allows a consolidated league to:
1. Get all the top players together under one format
2. Limit the number of events
3. Raise the overall quality of events

With the idea being to make a better product and in the end raise more revenue by being able to charge more for tickets and sponsorships.

But in order for this to happen one of the leagues has to buy out the other ones, or at least they need to all come together and figure out an arrangement where they are sharing revenue so there isn't an incentive for each league to hold its own events and undercut the overall product.
so you are looking at a non profitable business to be in charge of a profitable business?

other than that, there is a huge red flag of conflict of interest

but on the part of leagues - these are national leagues per country.
are you asking for the French league to buy out the German league and get all German leagues/clubs to play in France instead?

Europe has the national leagues and then European champions league and cup for all the national leagues clubs.
That looks like a good model for many to copy.
 
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