Table Tennis Kingdom: WTT will change table tennis. "There's no turning back now."

[Tony's Table Tennis]

To be completely fair for the higher level professional athletes they are not there to get more matches in and get value for their money, they are there to win. Perhaps for the Feeder events a group stage is more appropriate, but they do have qualification draws, so if you can't compete at that level then you are probably better off playing some international tournaments that are not part of the WTT tour.
Are there other individual sports which still use a group stage system for their professional tour? Racket sports in particular.

if you want to compare racket sports, table tennis can be done in under 20 mins. This is half of badminton and badminton is like half of tennis if it was best of 3, best of 5 is almost double that.

i'm sure it is insane to have groups in tennis.... the match length is just way too long.
but tennis and badminton are more financial rewarding than table tennis.

groups was okay before the change, was there ever complaints about having groups?
so now we don't have groups, but maybe 2 to 3 rounds of qualifications.
you still remember the best out of 7 and best out of 5 and some events have 7, some only have 7 from certain rounds and then rules changing....

and feeders can also have groups, its just making the main draw smaller or not having 30 to 50 feeders a year and get more participants per feeders.

so why add (some) groups now if everything was so perfect and complaints wasn't coming in?

 

[golden_son]

I personally don't mind the "dark mode" theme at WTT events. It puts focus on the action, and makes it visually distinct from the Olympics and various (super) leagues. I do get the argument that there's a missed opportunity to highlight the local scene in some way, at the very least for the big Smashes.

As for streaming, I actually really liked how Peacock (in the US) handled the Paris Olympics: there were individual streams for each event, but also a stream showing up to 4 events at the same time, including when multiple TT matches were being played. I'd love to see that from WTT.

I feel like the number of tournaments they're running isn't financially sustainable unless they're being heavily subsidized by the local governments, and how long will local governments keep that up if there isn't enough spectator turnout boosting the local economy? I think by necessity the tour will have to be winnowed down to fewer events that draw better crowds. But admittedly I have only experience organizing conventions to base that speculation on, and no experience with international sports.

 

[NextLevel]

I don't know who's saying that. What I dislike is the hold that WTT is trying to develop over the sport as a whole, by scheduling over-long tournaments and making them mandatory, by pretending they're the only possible format and everything else (or past) was bad, etc.

I've been to some big events in the pre-WTT era (individual worlds, team worlds, a couple of ProTours in different countries), and the spectator experience was a dream.

As far as I can see, group events seem to be limited now to qualification for lower-level tournaments (and to youth events).

Okay. So what would you propose as your commercially viable alternative? The WTT may be wrong but they are trying to solve a hard problem.

 

[TTTT]

Okay. So what would you propose as your commercially viable alternative? The WTT may be wrong but they are trying to solve a hard problem.

As others have said, I think the national leagues are important for the financial viability of the sport and should be supported rather than destroyed.
I'm not sure there was such a "hard problem" before - what is the goal, commercially? To bring table tennis to the level of tennis, with $5 million for the winner of a "grand smash"?

 

[Matt Hetherington]

if you want to compare racket sports, table tennis can be done in under 20 mins. This is half of badminton and badminton is like half of tennis if it was best of 3, best of 5 is almost double that.

i'm sure it is insane to have groups in tennis.... the match length is just way too long.
but tennis and badminton are more financial rewarding than table tennis.

groups was okay before the change, was there ever complaints about having groups?
so now we don't have groups, but maybe 2 to 3 rounds of qualifications.
you still remember the best out of 7 and best out of 5 and some events have 7, some only have 7 from certain rounds and then rules changing....

and feeders can also have groups, its just making the main draw smaller or not having 30 to 50 feeders a year and get more participants per feeders.

so why add (some) groups now if everything was so perfect and complaints wasn't coming in?

I'm not comparing racket sports, I'm asking if other individual sports have group stages in their professional tours. Yes tennis matches are long so it's not really viable for timing.
My main point is that the players who are really serious about competing on the tour wouldn't be thinking about how many matches they get to play for their spending, if they really are competitive at whatever level of tour event they are playing in.
I think from a spectator standpoint group matches can feel less compelling or competitive, whereas KO is more progressive so the level gets better and better by match. I would say that and scheduling are the main reasons to change it.

 

[NextLevel]

As others have said, I think the national leagues are important for the financial viability of the sport and should be supported rather than destroyed.
I'm not sure there was such a "hard problem" before - what is the goal, commercially? To bring table tennis to the level of tennis, with $5 million for the winner of a "grand smash"?

To create a product that sponsors are willing to invest in and throw money behind. As much as the old product might have satisfied TT nerds, it wasn't clear it had a path to getting TV sponsorships etc. Getting top players to play regularly and creating a worthy spectacle are a part of achieving that.

 

[TTTT]

To create a product that sponsors are willing to invest in and throw money behind. As much as the old product might have satisfied TT nerds, it wasn't clear it had a path to getting TV sponsorships etc. Getting top players to play regularly and creating a worthy spectacle are a part of achieving that.

Not sure what you mean by "the old product" and which era and area you're referring to. I remember plenty of "worthy spectacles" in the old days that were televised live in several countries (though not in the US perhaps). If several strong national leagues exist and provide a living for hundreds of players, it's because there are sponsors willing to invest in them.

 

[NextLevel]

Not sure what you mean by "the old product" and which era and area you're referring to. I remember plenty of "worthy spectacles" in the old days that were televised live in several countries (though not in the US perhaps). If several strong national leagues exist and provide a living for hundreds of players, it's because there are sponsors willing to invest in them.

Okay. So why is TT a shrinking sport today? As in why is it largely a sport that old people remember fondly with shrinking demographics in just about every county?

 

[TTTT]

Okay. So why is TT a shrinking sport today? As in why is it largely a sport that old people remember fondly with shrinking demographics in just about every county?

Ask the French!

 

[NextLevel]

Ask the French!

Why the French? Is table tennis bigger than tennis in France? The question is how to attact significant sponsorship money into the sport.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

I think from a spectator standpoint group matches can feel less compelling or competitive, whereas KO is more progressive so the level gets better and better by match. I would say that and scheduling are the main reasons to change it.

Spectator standpoint is what wtt is trying to do, but they forgot about players standpoint.
how much

To create a product that sponsors are willing to invest in and throw money behind….
Getting top players to play regularly and creating a worthy spectacle are a part of achieving that.

This sounds like a copy and paste from a WTT press release haha. You gave a too perfect answer.

So you seen a few years of wtt, what is the result on sponsorship and players involvement?
CNT players, are they playing more tournament than World Tour days?
Huge players fatigue and has sponsors been any better, are top players playing regularly?

Liam of Joola, playing so little international. In fact looking at another Joola player, Vitor, he is 10, 3 short of Liam in the 12 month cycle. They not buying into WTT?

Seems like Lily and Amy has also pursued the most basic participation (Smash, Champion, Continental) but Amy is a bit better, have some home feeders. They also not buying into WTT?
Based on Joola players, the one that plays the most international is Giulia at 16, but having 5 as Continental.

Quality of tournament? Or just scrambling to get many tournaments in every week, some times 2 tournaments or 3 tournaments during the same dates - will all tournaments (all sponsors) get good returns, or one tournament will override another? Sponsor of the overriding tournament is happy, or there won't be any sponsors at all?
In fact Feeder Bulgaria - override by Sweden Smash, did you see a big list of sponsors for Bulgaria? there was no sponsor actually, haha, only official ball, not even official table/flooring....

Remove the fangirls and ask yourself, how has things improved?

Just take USA Smash for example - if things are so great, why did the original table sponsor pull out and giving Matt and his colleagues little to no time to put Joola tables together that became the table joke of recent history?

Have you seen the official sponsor list of USA smash compared to the other event? why USA Smash has so little sponsors? Other than Joola for the table, the rest are all Chinese (standard) sponsors. Where are the local sponsors or additional sponsors that a major tournament would pull together?

I honestly think if people think things are much better, which sounds like you fit this position, then they are caught by wtt's beautiful packaging.
So much of the money is spent on making this packaging beautiful, while the rest of it, which I talk about as "quality" is terrible.

So my final question to you is, if players are loosing interest of thes low quality, and starting to fight back - will sponsors continue to invest and did it achieve your:

To create a product that sponsors are willing to invest in and throw money behind….
Getting top players to play regularly and creating a worthy spectacle are a part of achieving that.

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Okay. So why is TT a shrinking sport today? As in why is it largely a sport that old people remember fondly with shrinking demographics in just about every county?

should we also talk about NBA and its shrinkage (viewership coming down)?

 

[Janard]

Only the "top 4 men's players" are funded...

https://jtta.or.jp/national/mens
https://jtta.or.jp/national/womens

Didn't realise even Yokoi is on the national team. No wonder Nagasaki feels motivated

 

[TTTT]

Why the French? Is table tennis bigger than tennis in France? The question is how to attact significant sponsorship money into the sport.

In the post I replied to you cited "shrinking demographics" - table tennis seems to be growing not shrinking in France (and that's not primarily because of WTT and its spectacles, but because of the Olympics and two bespectacled brothers).

Can we drop the comparison with tennis and get serious?

 

[NextLevel]

If you think it is relevant, sure. I don't have to give you permission, you have written more than enough to continue to share your opinion.

should we also talk about NBA and its shrinkage (viewership coming down)?

 

[NextLevel]

In the post I replied to you cited "shrinking demographics" - table tennis seems to be growing not shrinking in France (and that's not primarily because of WTT and its spectacles, but because of the Olympics and two bespectacled brothers).

Can we drop the comparison with tennis and get serious?

Well, I was hoping you had an idea that could be replicated on other countries, not something sp obvious that you don't need to ask what it is and you pretty much know it is almost impossible to replicate it across the world. Or maybe there are some elements of it you would prefer to focus on that you believe are replicable? In which case there eas never any real need to ask France in the first place?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

If you think it is relevant, sure. I don't have to give you permission, you have written more than enough to continue to share your opinion.

of course it is relevant, which traditional sport coverage is not coming down?
table tennis is not unique

i think you also shared enough posts that you are pro wtt and in support of their mission
they should give you some free passes and fly you around the world like Dan

 

[NextLevel]

of course it is relevant, which traditional sport coverage is not coming down?
table tennis is not unique

if any, places that are meant to increase - is not, ie table tennis in the USA. Table tennis in the USA has become one of the most expensive sports in the country.
We have USA kids coming over and saying, table tennis in Taiwan is 5 times cheaper per hour.

Depends on what you mean by coming down, soccer and football are growing sports segments in the USA. The NBA has almost always grown internationally.

So if you think table tennis is just shrinking because all sports are shrinking, I assume you expect all sports to be struggle to maintain relevance at some point? And NBA teams are selling at record highs despite all these issues?

 

[Tony's Table Tennis]

Depends on what you mean by coming down, soccer and football are growing sports segments in the USA. The NBA has almost always grown internationally.

So if you think table tennis is just shrinking because all sports are shrinking, I assume you expect all sports to be struggle to maintain relevance at some point? And NBA teams are selling at record highs despite all these issues?

i actually didn't want to go into USA table tennis for respect and changed my post.
but yeah, table tennis is on the increase in many countries too. Just not your traditional places like China.
in fact if any, USA low base, table tennis should be doubling in memberships every few years.

any ways, i'm going to leave with this again:

i think you also shared enough posts that you are pro wtt and in support of their mission
they should give you some free passes and fly you around the world like Dan

 

[NextLevel]

i actually didn't want to go into USA table tennis for respect and changed my post.
but yeah, table tennis is on the increase in many countries too. Just not your traditional places like China.
in fact if any, USA low base, table tennis should be doubling in memberships every few years.

any ways, i'm going to leave with this again:

i think you also shared enough posts that you are pro wtt and in support of their mission
they should give you some free passes and fly you around the world like Dan

I think anyone who knows my approach to posting will know that is fairly ludicrous. I just like to complete perspectives when people are focused on part of the story. The WTT has its issues, but it is important to be clear in what they are trying to do and its importance for creating a sustainable commercial tour. One can go in a different direction with advancing table tennis for sure. But what is happening with the WTT is not that different from how the MLTT is being built in the US.