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While I see there is a lot of interest and debate on the sport vs sport part, I am more interested in the numbers of viewers.
we all know some of the bigger sports in the world, would have viewers that don't necessary play the sport physically (maybe on consoles). In other words, viewership should be more than active players and the business (big money) on sports is based on the viewership size.


So WTT channel is small
TTD channel on Instagram is small too, so I decided to check Adam Bobrow.
Now there, you would have some million + views, that is from 286k subs. TTD only have 187K, WTT is 811K, while PPA Asia is 17K now.

It is clear WTT is a doing poorly, considered its official position and them owning the contents and having near a million subs, the views are basically between 50k to 200k
Adam is the winner, but he has built his brand for the longest here (or is it TTD?), Adam has many in the 100k to 500k, 100k the low ones with quite a few north of 500k.
TTD views mostly stagnate at the 100k mark.

in comparison Joola Pickleball is 94k subs, with between 10k~50k views (I would thought this would be higher as USA is a big market and Joola is king there).

There is a kitchen pickleball account that has 710k followers and views under 100k is considered poor, 200~500k seem to be the par there.

ATP (tennis) has 3.4m subs with regular 500k to 1m views, and more.

so, table tennis viewership is actually in trouble.
 
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table tennis is too fast to watch. And if you don't play the game, you would not understand spin at all. People like to watch sports that, when you are behind, you can use power and speed to fight back - people think this is pushing your limits and never give up. But you don't have that in table tennis. But I think there are a few things that can be done.
1. put some (maybe invisible) marks on the ball that can be picked up by cameras.
2. have good camera angles and play many replays between points. The commentators should explain in a way assuming the audience does not play the sport. This also means the players should take longer breaks between points.
3. include table tennis in PE classes, and put some table tennis tables in public parks, playgrounds.
 
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Table tennis is just too difficult. That is the bottom line. Even if you put in the effort to try to get good, finding practice partners or people you can have fun playing with is also too difficult.
yea, in TT, if you and your partner are 200 ratings apart, you start to lose some fun. But I still think that if the general public has more access to TT (like putting tables in parks), more people would like to give it a try. And I am sure a good portion of people would fine it challenging and fun and more or less get into the sport.
 
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You couldn't be more wrong... in the American TT crowd, Ma Long, ZJK and Boll were overwhelming favorites. Few people really care about Kanak and Lily even domestically. In basketball, Jokic, Giannis and Wemby are universally loved by American fans while Lebron, Durant and Harden are very controversial and hated by many.

There are many reasons why pickleball has exploded in popularity, and a washed up Andre Agassi playing it is not one of those reasons. The sport was rapidly growing long before Agassi entered the scene.

If you're going to criticize Americans, at least try to know what you are talking about first.
basketball is the exception in US sports in that it is more international.
it even participates in olympics.
all the other popular sports in US are pretty much only played in north america...... baseball, football, ice hockey.
pickleball is only played in US probably.
 
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basketball is the exception in US sports in that it is more international.
it even participates in olympics.
all the other popular sports in US are pretty much only played in north america...... baseball, football, ice hockey.
pickleball is only played in US probably.

Ice hockey only played in North America?????
 
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table tennis is too fast to watch. And if you don't play the game, you would not understand spin at all. People like to watch sports that, when you are behind, you can use power and speed to fight back - people think this is pushing your limits and never give up. But you don't have that in table tennis. But I think there are a few things that can be done.
1. put some (maybe invisible) marks on the ball that can be picked up by cameras.
2. have good camera angles and play many replays between points. The commentators should explain in a way assuming the audience does not play the sport. This also means the players should take longer breaks between points.
3. include table tennis in PE classes, and put some table tennis tables in public parks, playgrounds.

Hockey also very fast. I even can't see puck when traying to watch game
 
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Hockey also very fast. I even can't see puck when traying to watch game
The puck is fast, but we can still see the people and the sticks, and people+sticks hitting each other lol. Again, people like to watch sports that when you are behind, you can use your power to fight back, even though it's a fault. Imagine in table tennis, players would throw their paddles at each other or something, I am sure more people would watch.
 
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Compared to pickleball and even tennis, I agree that table tennis is harder to access as a player, at least in the West. But I'm skeptical that being a player and being a fan are that closely related. I can see a bunch of people playing pickleball at the park on a nice day, but how many of them are actually following the PPA tour? Meanwhile, there are tons of tennis fans who barely play tennis at all. Tennis is a big money sport because it appeals to a huge range of fans, including lots of very casual ones.

The fan (and therefore advertiser) experience in table tennis is simply far worse than in tennis or pickleball (which is basically a little cousin of tennis in terms of organization and marketing).

The entire maze of table tennis leagues are a huge pain to follow, and top players are often playing different events, even simultaneously, due to various obligations to leagues and national/regional associations alongside the WTT. And advertisers/TV carriers don't want to deal with that. Professional sports are an entertainment business, and the way pro table tennis is organized is just really bad for business.

Pro pickleball doesn't have any leagues, and neither does tennis. Pro table tennis will continue to be held back until the players, WTT, leagues and big associations can form some form of partnership to share revenue and trim down and consolidate the schedule.
 
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Pro table tennis will continue to be held back until the players, WTT, leagues and big associations can form some form of partnership to share revenue and trim down and consolidate the schedule.
this part I don't agree
WTT wants to have 200 events in a year, that means no one else can exist.

leagues biggest expenses the players income
WTT smallest expense is the players income

The core of the two is just totally different.
Clubs work for the players and help the players be at there best.
WTT, can't say they have the players as priority, because the players work for WTT
 
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we all know some of the bigger sports in the world, would have viewers that don't necessary play the sport physically (maybe on consoles). In other words, viewership should be more than active players and the business (big money) on sports is based on the viewership size.
Only active players can follow what's happening in a pro tt match, because only active players have a feel for spin. This is a big part of what limits tt viewership. Then there's the small size of the ball and the speed and subtlety of the game which don't come across very well on video. Table tennis will never match the more photogenic and easier-to-understand sports in broadcast popularity, but viewership can be increased by increasing the number of active players. In the US, making clubs and coaching more accessible can help on a relatively small scale; getting tt into school systems as a standard interscholastic sport is the only practical way to do it on a large scale.
 
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Only active players can follow what's happening in a pro tt match, because only active players have a feel for spin. This is a big part of what limits tt viewership. Then there's the small size of the ball and the speed and subtlety of the game which don't come across very well on video. Table tennis will never match the more photogenic and easier-to-understand sports in broadcast popularity, but viewership can be increased by increasing the number of active players. In the US, making clubs and coaching more accessible can help on a relatively small scale; getting tt into school systems as a standard interscholastic sport is the only practical way to do it on a large scale.
I think you are right.
in Asia, TT is everywhere, and hence the viewership is more.
So this is a tough job, since everyone talks about it, but there isn't much grassroot growth it seems.
 
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yea, in TT, if you and your partner are 200 ratings apart, you start to lose some fun. But I still think that if the general public has more access to TT (like putting tables in parks), more people would like to give it a try. And I am sure a good portion of people would fine it challenging and fun and more or less get into the sport.
I think hardbat TT is fairly popular, it is just hard to commercialize given how TT has evolved.
 
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Compared to pickleball and even tennis, I agree that table tennis is harder to access as a player, at least in the West. But I'm skeptical that being a player and being a fan are that closely related. I can see a bunch of people playing pickleball at the park on a nice day, but how many of them are actually following the PPA tour? Meanwhile, there are tons of tennis fans who barely play tennis at all. Tennis is a big money sport because it appeals to a huge range of fans, including lots of very casual ones.

The fan (and therefore advertiser) experience in table tennis is simply far worse than in tennis or pickleball (which is basically a little cousin of tennis in terms of organization and marketing).

The entire maze of table tennis leagues are a huge pain to follow, and top players are often playing different events, even simultaneously, due to various obligations to leagues and national/regional associations alongside the WTT. And advertisers/TV carriers don't want to deal with that. Professional sports are an entertainment business, and the way pro table tennis is organized is just really bad for business.

Pro pickleball doesn't have any leagues, and neither does tennis. Pro table tennis will continue to be held back until the players, WTT, leagues and big associations can form some form of partnership to share revenue and trim down and consolidate the schedule.
They very much are - in fact, being a fan of many sports requires you to understand the rules of the sport and usually, understanding the rules of the sport usually requires you to have played it on some level growing up. It's part of the reason why many Americans struggle to understand/watch soccer, but can watch baseball. If you can't engage with the sport as a feedback loop, it is hard to follow it.
 
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this part I don't agree
WTT wants to have 200 events in a year, that means no one else can exist.

leagues biggest expenses the players income
WTT smallest expense is the players income

The core of the two is just totally different.
Clubs work for the players and help the players be at there best.
WTT, can't say they have the players as priority, because the players work for WTT
We've had this conversation enough times that I'm not really interested in re-hashing it again. And I understand dealing with the leagues is part of your business, so naturally you prefer them to WTT. I don't care whether you call it WTT or rename it TTW or whatever, and replace all of the leadership and organize it however you want. That is not the point. The point is there needs to be a single organization with a near-monopoly on selling the top players' matches to advertisers, TV carriers, and fans, in order to make enough money to turn table tennis into a higher-profile sport outside of Asia.

They very much are - in fact, being a fan of many sports requires you to understand the rules of the sport and usually, understanding the rules of the sport usually requires you to have played it on some level growing up. It's part of the reason why many Americans struggle to understand/watch soccer, but can watch baseball. If you can't engage with the sport as a feedback loop, it is hard to follow it.
Players are very often fans, but fans don't have to be players. The NFL is the most popular sports league (by far) in the US and only a small share of fans have played organized American Football at any point in their lives, let alone have more than a rudimentary understanding of the sport. Of course experienced players of any sport will tend to be more interested in the highest level of the game, but there is more to it than that for sports with big followings. It's about entertainment, drama, storylines and personalities. ~130 million people don't watch the Super Bowl because they played Pee-wee football and want to see how the nickel matches up with the tight end on third down, they watch because it's a cultural event.

If you don't like that example, how many Formula 1 fans have even sat behind the wheel of a racing car? How many were introduced to the sport by Drive to Survive?
 
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We've had this conversation enough times that I'm not really interested in re-hashing it again. And I understand dealing with the leagues is part of your business, so naturally you prefer them to WTT. I don't care whether you call it WTT or rename it TTW or whatever, and replace all of the leadership and organize it however you want. That is not the point. The point is there needs to be a single organization with a near-monopoly on selling the top players' matches to advertisers, TV carriers, and fans, in order to make enough money to turn table tennis into a higher-profile sport outside of Asia.


Players are very often fans, but fans don't have to be players. The NFL is the most popular sports league (by far) in the US and only a small share of fans have played organized American Football at any point in their lives, let alone have more than a rudimentary understanding of the sport. Of course experienced players of any sport will tend to be more interested in the highest level of the game, but there is more to it than that for sports with big followings. It's about entertainment, drama, storylines and personalities. ~130 million people don't watch the Super Bowl because they played Pee-wee football and want to see how the nickel matches up with the tight end on third down, they watch because it's a cultural event.

If you don't like that example, how many Formula 1 fans have even sat behind the wheel of a racing car? How many were introduced to the sport by Drive to Survive?
The examples you give aren't great examples still, but the point is not to argue this to death because you have a point, it is just significantly overstated IMHO. A huge part of that NFL culture you are talking about begins with getting kids involved in the sport. Many successful businessmen played football or made connections in that business, especially in the middle American states, so there is an large subculture around the sport that is not visible on TV. The storylines and all the other stuff are mass marketing tools, but they all sit on a large base of hardcore believers who learned, played and watched the sport as children.

Formula 1 is also a bad example because everyone who can drive relates to driving. It is pretty similar to watching sprints/marathons - you don't have to have done one to understand what makes the race tick. That said, Formula 1 is still a very niche sport in general, but as with most sports that are expensive, rich people take enough of an interest in it to keep it going.

Some of the mistakes made in table tennis are historical, but the bottom line is that the sport has never significantly gained traction as something attractive to the masses or rich people. Remember, China partly invested in it because it was cheap to invest in. That said, table tennis as an activity is outcompeted by other sports when alternatives are present, but usually, culture is what keeps sports popular in the first place. It is their culture of playing the sport as children that keeps the sport popular in China, if not, the sport would be almost dead globally by now. Tennis, basketball, football and golf had an upper class history from the start, as do many sports that are popular today and they were lucky to have better business standing and TV deals when money really started going into sports. Maybe the US was also unlucky not to have good table tennis players at the top of the sport during the 80s and 90s as that might have helped. But there are now facilities in just about every school supporting most of the big sports in America. Because just like with religion, the biggest thing determining whether you like a sport is how early you were exposed to it in a positive fashion.
 
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