What makes more difference - rubbers or blades

[NextLevel]

Yep, good points allround. The ball does spin pretty equalliy against the slow backspin and for far range attacks. But, I was really talking about the ball change, and how that affects the spin of the game. I've seen many comments that after a decade long break, they come back to a "spinless game". Of course this isn't true, but that does mean the current game is more power focused than before.

What they mean is that woth thd old ball, the amount of rotation you could put on thr ball was often a weapon. So you could play at a slower tempo with spinny loops and make the opponent hesistant to attack because of the quality of spin. With the new balls. This is much harder. As Timo described it, the new balls are too perfect. That said, the purpose for which spin is used most effectively has changed for some players but in general beyond the ball and equipment changes and the effectiveness of certain styles, the power/speed focus is still largely mediated by spin. And the main and common misconception is that smacking the ball is less spinny when in some ways it is more especially if one is loop driving like you said. But some people think you only really spin if you are playing classically apinny topspins like Timo Boll used to.

 

[Oliverpool]

Another interesting anecdote from the professional level: before Paris 2024, Zeng Jian did an interview where she mentioned her main and backup rackets had two completely different blades. You can see in the image that the blades were W968 and LGY ALC -- not just different models, but completely different constructions (though I doubt she cares if she's even paying attention to inner vs. outer carbon, etc.). The main thing she liked about both of them is the feeling, and she clearly doesn't mind that (according to her own statement) one is more powerful than the other.

Two different bats for Singapore table tennis player Zeng Jian

Singapore’s Paris 2024 Olympians share more about the essentials that help them perform at their best. Read more at straitstimes.com. Read more at straitstimes.com.

www.straitstimes.com

Zeng is a bit of an outlier, but this nicely illustrates how much more subjective blades are compared to rubbers even at the pro level. The right blade does make a real difference if it gives you extra confidence or a good feeling, and it's easy to find pro players who are picky/superstitious about their blades. But rubbers are always held to the highest possible standard of consistency and performance.

I somewhat agree with this. I do miss the "vibration?" on my hands when ball hits the blade that I used to get in my earlier playing days. Partly it could be due to the outer carbon or carbon blades that I have mainly been using. As I have transition from H3 to hybrid rubbers, speed is no longer that much of a issue. Thats why I am thinking of going to a inner or pure 5/7 ply wood blade with enough speed but one that gives me that feel of the ball on my fingers. I play penhold so have limited people to ask about the options available out there. Perhaps I should just but a old 2nd hand wood blade just to see if I am correct.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

What they mean is that woth thd old ball, the amount of rotation you could put on thr ball was often a weapon. So you could play at a slower tempo with spinny loops and make the opponent hesistant to attack because of the quality of spin. With the new balls. This is much harder. As Timo described it, the new balls are too perfect. That said, the purpose for which spin is used most effectively has changed for some players but in general beyond the ball and equipment changes and the effectiveness of certain styles, the power/speed focus is still largely mediated by spin. And the main and common misconception is that smacking the ball is less spinny when in some ways it is more especially if one is loop driving like you said. But some people think you only really spin if you are playing classically apinny topspins like Timo Boll used to.

Ohh, I see it now. Thank you for the clarification man, I really appreciate it! My point is the ball of course is still spinny, but not nearly as spinny as before. Because of that, people didn't focus as much on spin (because spin isn't as much as a weapon now but instead more for consistency and speed), and therefore focused more on speed. This is also why the new H3 is less tacky and sticky than the old one.

If I am wrong, please correct me again. Thank you!

 

[NextLevel]

Ohh, I see it now. Thank you for the clarification man, I really appreciate it! My point is the ball of course is still spinny, but not nearly as spinny as before. Because of that, people didn't focus as much on spin (because spin isn't as much as a weapon now but instead more for consistency and speed), and therefore focused more on speed. This is also why the new H3 is less tacky and sticky than the old one.

If I am wrong, please correct me again. Thank you!

Yes, it is less spinny tthan before but to be honest, the effects of the change in ball material haven't been separated from the size increase. The main point though is that you can't just spin the ball and win points like you used to be able to. Whether that is because the ball rotates less or because something else is making the ball easier to block even when it has heavy rotation, I don't know. But I wouldn't say say the spin is less, I will say the slow spin doesn't score points as easily.

 

[PenHoldSandro]

Yes, it is less spinny tthan before but to be honest, the effects of the change in ball material haven't been separated from the size increase. The main point though is that you can't just spin the ball and win points like you used to be able to. Whether that is because the ball rotates less or because something else is making the ball easier to block even when it has heavy rotation, I don't know. But I wouldn't say say the spin is less, I will say the slow spin doesn't score points as easily.

I feel like it is simply the spin reduction. Even heavy spin on the modern ball can't compare to the old ball. Those arcs are wild.

But I mean ITTF did do what they wanted to, that being making rallies longer and more entertaining. So whatever they're doing, they're doing it good

 

[MORTtheORT]

I do think having plenty of coached hours is essential for that.

Yep, if you are just self playing as a casual player then just get a setup that works for the game style that you enjoy playing. More about fun rallies then winning.

 

[MORTtheORT]

I think Timo Boll felt that D09c could be used by a beginner. He is on the record saying this. What kind of blade do you think he had in mind that beginner should use since according to you, the rubber has a blade power transfer requirement? What is a top blade?

I think Timo Boll felt that D09c could be used by a beginner. He is on the record saying this. What kind of blade do you think he had in mind that beginner should use since according to you, the rubber has a blade power transfer requirement? What is a top blade?

Personally, I would recommend either the Timo Boll

I think Timo Boll felt that D09c could be used by a beginner. He is on the record saying this. What kind of blade do you think he had in mind that beginner should use since according to you, the rubber has a blade power transfer requirement? What is a top blade?

For a beginner wanting to use the 09C, I would go with Mid-Fast blades. Yasaka Ma Li (my favourite beginner blade that goes all the way to pro.....love this blade with Rakza 7s or Rakza 7 soft on the FH), Timo Boll ALC, Viscaria (I use this, it helps my backhand). I recommend being very mindful of the weight and its balance. The 09C requires fast blade speed to achieve high shot quality. The sponge does not activate if you have a slow swinging action without very rapid acceleration. If you are that type of player, the shot quality of the 09C is terrible, and even intermediate players will load up and smash that ball back at you. For beginners, they must play the shots with the 09C, which forces them to have a backswing and follow through, which is good if you are being coached with lots of multiball training. The problem I see with the 09C for beginners is that they tend to play against other players, not putting much on the ball....Means they have to generate all the shot quality themselves, which will expose technical weaknesses. Something of interest with the 09C, I see people getting the Butterfly Viscaria Super ALC. This blade is amazing for forehand power transfer, and with the 09C, it goes into hammer time mode. But there is a BIG drawback that impacts players who are simply not strong enough. It is only slightly heavier than the standard Viscaria, but the weight feels more in the head of the blade, which seems to slow the acceleration in a lot of players' shots. Think like swinging a mallet. The swing starts slowly, but if you have the strength to build rapid momentum, it will start moving very fast.

 

[MORTtheORT]

My coach used to be a player on the national team. He said that to build up your skill level, you need to gather a bit of everything — little by little, to become a pro.
He said that the blade and the rubber are equally important.
If I play in the style of Chinese players who use rubbers like Dignics 09C and Hurricane 3, I have to use carbon blades such as the Viscaria. I’ve tried those rubbers on an all-wood blade and felt that I couldn’t generate enough power on the ball.
However, when I put Tenergy rubbers on an all-wood blade, I found that the ball was much easier to control and produced a lot more spin.

I have never tried them on an all-wood but

Then you should get better performance from D09C than G09C on the dead blade. Also ‘performance’ is ability biased. A blade or rubber does nothing until used by a person.
A strong player is still way more likely to play better with a poor blade/good rubber combo or good blade/poor rubber combo than a weaker player.

In this scenario, the biggest performance-limiting factor is the players, not the equipment.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Relatively open question, so it's hard to answer.

It's a little frustrating when people start talking about what the "Pros" think..... None of us are pros.... None of us will ever be pros..... So just because a certain pro would find the blade more important (or whatever), it really doesn't make much difference to us.

My opinion would be that for 99% of us, the rubber is more important.
I can play with SO many blades from Allround to Offensive Plus with VERY little change in how I need to play.

But the rubber will require more adjustment - Still no where near as much as people like to think, but more than the blade.

That being said, I think people on forums massively overthink how important it is - The changes between blades and rubbers are very small, and the "gains" that people look for are generally negated by the lack of ability in the first place.

Not to say people are BAD.... But to get the MOST out of the different rubbers, you'd need to be semi pro level or better (in general).

I think people mix up performance vs playing style. The rubber dictates the style of game you will play.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Why are you comparing Glayzer 09c which is a playable, though slow, rubber to a "dead blade"? The fair comparison would be comparing Glayzer 09c on a "good blade" to Dignics 09c on an all-around to off- blade.

And any competent player will have better capabilities with the latter.

Because a dead blade is slow and lacks feeling as well..... like the G09C...

 

[MORTtheORT]

While the rubbers are not that far apart, I would struggle to think of any commerciap blade that would reduce the performance of D09c significantly. Obviously, there is a blend of rubber and balde characteristics, but rubber is clearly the reason why we play how we play, it is easier to play high level TT well with a cheap blade than to play well with a cheap rubber.

Don't confuse playing style with performance. The rubber absolutely is the key to your playing style. If you are a flat hitter, you select a rubber for this; if you are a defensive player, you pick a rubber for this; if you are a looper, you pick a rubber for your style. But you pick the blade to get the best feel and performance. Pointless having a 09C max on a mid-tier blade...waste of money.

 

[MORTtheORT]

2019/12/31
https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/forum/topics/stroke-impacted-by.22562/post-300901


There have been many studies on this.

Try looping with long pips.........this is like saying try looping without a blade because I can assure you, it is a lot easier to loop without a rubber than without a blade....

Anyways. pointless comparing different styles of rubbers to performance.

 

[andymagata]

Who would win - someone with just a blade or someone with just a rubber?

 

[MORTtheORT]

Who would win - someone with just a blade or someone with just a rubber?

I know right. It is a strange comparison

 

[NextLevel]

Personally, I would recommend either the Timo Boll

For a beginner wanting to use the 09C, I would go with Mid-Fast blades. Yasaka Ma Li (my favourite beginner blade that goes all the way to pro.....love this blade with Rakza 7s or Rakza 7 soft on the FH), Timo Boll ALC, Viscaria (I use this, it helps my backhand). I recommend being very mindful of the weight and its balance. The 09C requires fast blade speed to achieve high shot quality. The sponge does not activate if you have a slow swinging action without very rapid acceleration. If you are that type of player, the shot quality of the 09C is terrible, and even intermediate players will load up and smash that ball back at you. For beginners, they must play the shots with the 09C, which forces them to have a backswing and follow through, which is good if you are being coached with lots of multiball training. The problem I see with the 09C for beginners is that they tend to play against other players, not putting much on the ball....Means they have to generate all the shot quality themselves, which will expose technical weaknesses. Something of interest with the 09C, I see people getting the Butterfly Viscaria Super ALC. This blade is amazing for forehand power transfer, and with the 09C, it goes into hammer time mode. But there is a BIG drawback that impacts players who are simply not strong enough. It is only slightly heavier than the standard Viscaria, but the weight feels more in the head of the blade, which seems to slow the acceleration in a lot of players' shots. Think like swinging a mallet. The swing starts slowly, but if you have the strength to build rapid momentum, it will start moving very fast.

Three re-quotes to answer the question? If by shot quality you mean speed, it clearly depends as you can still hit a better ball with 09c on a premade blade than you would with a no-sponge rubber or Mark V. My point in part is that you seem to be focused on optimal performance which requires a combination of blade and rubber for any player, while most of us are focused fundamentally on what even makes the spin in the modern game possible because while the blade is important for speed,

1) there are a variety of relativelyvheap fast blades with decent performance.
2)There are attackers in all variants of table tennis but the power with which they hit is enabled.and limited.by the spin in the game that gives them margin.

Boll's point shows that the idea that 09c can only br used on the blades you are considering is your idea, he is arguing that the dwell time of 09c makes it controllable for people learning. Table tennis is not just about optimal shots, wherher we want to delude ourselves it is or not, it is about performance through a range of possibilities.

 

[NextLevel]

Don't confuse playing style with performance. The rubber absolutely is the key to your playing style. If you are a flat hitter, you select a rubber for this; if you are a defensive player, you pick a rubber for this; if you are a looper, you pick a rubber for your style. But you pick the blade to get the best feel and performance. Pointless having a 09C max on a mid-tier blade...waste of money.

No one is in quite the way you are. The rubber is key to playing style and performance because spin is the basis of the speed in the modern playing style and even cheap old blades can generate decent speed. The problem is that sometimes they are thicker than optimal so the use of composites allows for more possibilities. But the contributions of blades to those possibilities is far less of marker than the rubbers.

The other point here is that the modern game is dominated by one playing style gor a reason. If we are not speaking in the context of the modern playing style then the question is completely arbitrary.

 

[NextLevel]

Who would win - someone with just a blade or someone with just a rubber?

Thats not the experiment that is being run. The experiment is who would win, someone with a cheap blade but modern state of the art rubber or someone with a cheap rubber but modern state of the art blade. Is a pro likely to be able to.play the way he wants to because he is using a better rubber or a better blade?

Everyone agrees here that both blade and rubber and ultimately important to hit the ball. But if we had to choose between blades made in the 1960s and modern rubbers or rubbers made in the 1960s and modern blades i have no doubt which most pros would pick. Anyone's answers would say a ot about how they see equipment.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Three re-quotes to answer the question? If by shot quality you mean speed, it clearly depends as you can still hit a better ball with 09c on a premade blade than you would with a no-sponge rubber or Mark V. My point in part is that you seem to be focused on optimal performance which requires a combination of blade and rubber for any player, while most of us are focused fundamentally on what even makes the spin in the modern game possible because while the blade is important for speed,

1) there are a variety of relativelyvheap fast blades with decent performance.
2)There are attackers in all variants of table tennis but the power with which they hit is enabled.and limited.by the spin in the game that gives them margin.

Boll's point shows that the idea that 09c can only br used on the blades you are considering is your idea, he is arguing that the dwell time of 09c makes it controllable for people learning. Table tennis is not just about optimal shots, wherher we want to delude ourselves it is or not, it is about performance through a range of possibilities.

Absolutely, I am focused on optimal performance. I would never recommend something that is not optimal performance to anyone. I will never train anyone in any sport and provide advice that limits them.

Shot quality is a shot's effectiveness, based on speed, spin, depth, and placement. This is standard. The balance of this depends on the style of player (different ratios for a defensive play, for example). At no point did I say these are the only blades. I answered your question of what I would recommend. There are plenty of good-quality mid-fast offensive blades that would work with the 09C. Would I recommend a pure fast blade for a beginner using the 09C? Generally, no, as they tend to be head-heavy, making them feel very heavy (in general). Would I recommend a slow defensive blade with the 09C...never. Would I recommend a blade without a strong feeling with the 09C to a beginner...never.

Look, I am going to throw comments from sponsored players out the window....... Invested interest in having as wide a purchase market as possible, and don't be surprised if this particular view on a beginner is a 7-year-old training every day instead of a 40-year-old joining a club.

I am also throwing out the Mark V no-sponge comparison, as it changes the style of play to defensive. I don't compare the performance requirements of tools that are designed for completely different purposes. I could just as easily counter with try looping with a rubber and no blade....

 

[MORTtheORT]

No one is in quite the way you are. The rubber is key to playing style and performance because spin is the basis of the speed in the modern playing style and even cheap old blades can generate decent speed. The problem is that sometimes they are thicker than optimal so the use of composites allows for more possibilities. But the contributions of blades to those possibilities is far less of marker than the rubbers.

The other point here is that the modern game is dominated by one playing style gor a reason. If we are not speaking in the context of the modern playing style then the question is completely arbitrary.

I am more than happy to play against people with good rubbers on average blades. I will continue to enjoy driving people back from the table, watching them dip the modern heavy ball into the net or being forced to lob it up with the less-spinny modern heavy ball for me to smash them off the table. Win/Win for me.

Added Note: Oh, and I also love it when they can not transfer enough power through the blade, and the high-quality rubber makes the ball drop early on the table....popping up nicely for me

 

[NextLevel]

Absolutely, I am focused on optimal performance. I would never recommend something that is not optimal performance to anyone. I will never train anyone in any sport and provide advice that limits them.

Shot quality is a shot's effectiveness, based on speed, spin, depth, and placement. This is standard. The balance of this depends on the style of player (different ratios for a defensive play, for example). At no point did I say these are the only blades. I answered your question of what I would recommend. There are plenty of good-quality mid-fast offensive blades that would work with the 09C. Would I recommend a pure fast blade for a beginner using the 09C? Generally, no, as they tend to be head-heavy, making them feel very heavy (in general). Would I recommend a slow defensive blade with the 09C...never. Would I recommend a blade without a strong feeling with the 09C to a beginner...never.

Look, I am going to throw comments from sponsored players out the window....... Invested interest in having as wide a purchase market as possible, and don't be surprised if this particular view on a beginner is a 7-year-old training every day instead of a 40-year-old joining a club.

I am also throwing out the Mark V no-sponge comparison, as it changes the style of play to defensive. I don't compare the performance requirements of tools that are designed for completely different purposes. I could just as easily counter with try looping with a rubber and no blade....

The original quesrion was which makes moee difference, rubber or blade. *more difference*. Both have impacts but which determines style and performance more? If you had a limited budget, would your budget go more into choice of rubbers or choice of blades?

Your point that you can use a variety of blades ro play woth 09c makes mine.