Technique correction - Trying to Fix my FH backstroke + hitting through the sponge

[Zezima]

Here are the last videos, where I filmed myself.
Last one is the newest.


So basically I am concentrating on 2 areas. The Backstroke more open racket and hitting the ball hard and only trying to apply as much spin to clear the net. I need to understand the variables like forearm snap wrist usage etc on the incoming ball speed and spin to especially not overshoot the ball. Right now I am using H3N 39° 2,1mm on my FH and the D09c 2,1mm on my BH

In the first video after 18:30 something I have a better player block my balls. I like the quality of my balls but my backstroke is still too bad and risky. It requires a very specific timing.

Here is me trying to fix my FH by hitting hard. I also did many different drills where I use my BH to end points. My backstroke is still looking bad

-------------

Here I try to combine with my serve then 1. Against push 2nd. after block.

--------------



Conclusio. Last training I didn't film myself but I took this approach from this video. Did this for a few minutes and then I could hit some really good killer fh against float half long longish balls but because of space issues couldn't film myself.

My goal is since I seem to have much time in my matches that my backstroke starts at my right thighs/knee height arm ALMOST fully extended. And then whipping through.

https://youtu.be/cHBmy85ZkWw?t=847

It should look like this. Right now its very inconsistent or lacks power and if I go with power it goes out. But I saw pros manage it to still hit it on the table with power even though the racket is this much open.

Which Exercises should I focus on? multiball is very rare and I don't want to do it with only 30 balls and then we switch (I get cold in between). So I want to only do it if we can have more balls. I don't have the luxory to only receive multiball without having to give it back. Which is fair but as I said it is finished in 30sec and then we have to collect balls and I give it to him and the frequency is quite low since the break is longer than the actual playtime with less balls.

To not overflood this thread I would appreciate if only people that are better than me and with knowledge about this problem comments on this thread.

Next season half starts in about 1-1,5 months

 

[NakiMaki]

I just skimmed through your videos. You are so stiff, and i had the exact same issue a little while back. Forehand is very stiff backhand is pretty good. It's atleast not as stiff of course consistency could be better. Your forehand is mainly forearm driven and it's probably because you are strong enough to get decent quality with this type of stroke. If you take a 11 yo. kid they would not be able loop like you, but they can get good quality with the correct technique. This is often why adults who start a bit later develop this "weird" technique. Also you said you play with H3N 39degree, i play the exact same. You are almost always not hitting through the sponge, you can hear the *thud* sound when you hit and not the *Crack* that H3 usually produces. This is because you only get into the topsheet and a little into the sponge. But when you do get that *crack* sound you tend to shoot long or into the net, this is because your swingpath is wrong, and the angle you contact the ball with is wrong.

My suggestion for the forehand would be try to play a bit with the robot. Here you should focus on relaxing the arm and the hand (dont grip the racket to death), lengthen the backswing, straighten the arm and just before contact accelerate with your strong power. Make sure the swingpath is the exact same when you start the forward motion, it should be a straight line going forward and upwards, if you change the direction of the power you will lose it to momentum. Most of the forward momentum into the ball also starts at the hips. Your hips and arm move in unison not in succesion. First hips while hips are moving relax arm and the accelerate before hitting the ball.

Backhand is okay when you have time. Often when you miss is because your backswing is too big for the amount of time you have. You focus a lot on relaxing and retracting the hand then accelerating with your forearm. Which in itself is "textbook" for looping. You gotta remember though if the opponent gives you a speedy ball then a big backswing will lead to inconsistency. You HAVE to develop a shortened stroke aswell, look at top players backhand to backhand rallies, its not big loops with big swings, its close to the table short swings using the speed from the ball. Try again with the robot and focus on learning a shortened swing aswell. When you can adequately judge which shot to use, then you backhand is fine.


View attachment dff29c41-0191-4859-afba-ce3bef207501.mp4
View attachment a7494b91-6d92-4a28-a1ea-0b82c3eac3db.mp4

I tried to make a video of me showing how the forehand should be moving. Here the backswing goes back then its linear, and when resetting i go down then back, then relaxing and make a linear stroke. Try to look at the difference between this stroke and your stroke.

I hope this helps ))

 

[NakiMaki]

Would also note that you probably should have slower rubbers and racket, but usually players on here don't like to hear that. H3 is too hard for you still , you would benefit a lot more from playing glayzer on both sides. I have been in the same so i get it.

 

[NetProphet]

Here are the last videos, where I filmed myself.
Last one is the newest.


So basically I am concentrating on 2 areas. The Backstroke more open racket and hitting the ball hard and only trying to apply as much spin to clear the net. I need to understand the variables like forearm snap wrist usage etc on the incoming ball speed and spin to especially not overshoot the ball. Right now I am using H3N 39° 2,1mm on my FH and the D09c 2,1mm on my BH

In the first video after 18:30 something I have a better player block my balls. I like the quality of my balls but my backstroke is still too bad and risky. It requires a very specific timing.

Here is me trying to fix my FH by hitting hard. I also did many different drills where I use my BH to end points. My backstroke is still looking bad

-------------

Here I try to combine with my serve then 1. Against push 2nd. after block.

--------------



Conclusio. Last training I didn't film myself but I took this approach from this video. Did this for a few minutes and then I could hit some really good killer fh against float half long longish balls but because of space issues couldn't film myself.

My goal is since I seem to have much time in my matches that my backstroke starts at my right thighs/knee height arm ALMOST fully extended. And then whipping through.

https://youtu.be/cHBmy85ZkWw?t=847

It should look like this. Right now its very inconsistent or lacks power and if I go with power it goes out. But I saw pros manage it to still hit it on the table with power even though the racket is this much open.

Which Exercises should I focus on? multiball is very rare and I don't want to do it with only 30 balls and then we switch (I get cold in between). So I want to only do it if we can have more balls. I don't have the luxory to only receive multiball without having to give it back. Which is fair but as I said it is finished in 30sec and then we have to collect balls and I give it to him and the frequency is quite low since the break is longer than the actual playtime with less balls.

To not overflood this thread I would appreciate if only people that are better than me and with knowledge about this problem comments on this thread.

Next season half starts in about 1-1,5 months

The backstroke should be a function of the rotation in your waist and not something linked to a backwards moving of the arm itself. This is the best way to get consistency with it. It becomes very much a core exercise then, to use and engage your core correctly with every shot. What happens when we lose timing or are too slow is we use more arm movement instead of waist rotation and all consistency is lost.
I don't think you're following through enough on many of your strokes either, they seem abbreviated and jerky to me.
I would be seeking completely consistent follow through on every stroke.
This coupled with the constant engagement/rotation of the core would go a long way to getting the consistency you want.
When it's properly ingrained then it doesn't break down under pressure.

 

[Zezima]

Would also note that you probably should have slower rubbers and racket, but usually players on here don't like to hear that. H3 is too hard for you still , you would benefit a lot more from playing glayzer on both sides. I have been in the same so i get it.

You mean g09c?

My blade is OFF- I got told which is ok after 8y of playing. I can control the short game quite well and have higher quality pushes in my training games especially against players in my league. Only thing that lacks is as you said hitting harder without making error. I still tend to loop with a closed racket and mainly with topsheet. To me its a technical problem and not a setup problem per se.

Maybe I am wrong but I think a setup would be too fast for someone if the ball leaves the racket before you can generate topspin and/or its uncontrollable in the short game (too unpredictable, bouncy) so you go for a slower setup instead.

 

[Zezima]

The backstroke should be a function of the rotation in your waist and not something linked to a backwards moving of the arm itself. This is the best way to get consistency with it. It becomes very much a core exercise then, to use and engage your core correctly with every shot. What happens when we lose timing or are too slow is we use more arm movement instead of waist rotation and all consistency is lost.
I don't think you're following through enough on many of your strokes either, they seem abbreviated and jerky to me.
I would be seeking completely consistent follow through on every stroke.
This coupled with the constant engagement/rotation of the core would go a long way to getting the consistency you want.
When it's properly ingrained then it doesn't break down under pressure.

Interesting point with the follow through. I thought that has something to do with my backstroke since I tend to correct my motion just before the contact and depending how much correction it needs the follow through looks also "bad".

But I don't understand the waist rotation and core part since I see myself rotate with the hips. But right now it looks like I rotate and accelerate with the hips seperately but synchron without using the energy of the hips as an additional to my arm movement. That also has to do with the fact that I seem to generate enough power that I already (when hit hard) that it goes out.


I wrote the timestamps out where I think I did a good loop compared to how I normally loop. In the video it still looks like it could be "faster" and maybe still too much with topsheet? I just don't know how to practise this the best because if I don't loop like this it flys out. In the other video. In the 2nd video "Training Smash" I do roboter training aswell if you haven't watched it yet. Did I ever do the "right" loop there? If not I don't know what more I should do..

1. 4:14
   
   
2. 5:00
   
   
3. 5:30
   
   
4. 5:48
   
   
5. 7:35
   
   
   
   Also what did you use to film and upload it here without having to upload it on youtube first? Just from the pc or what?

 

[NakiMaki]

You mean g09c?

My blade is OFF- I got told which is ok after 8y of playing. I can control the short game quite well and have higher quality pushes in my training games especially against players in my league. Only thing that lacks is as you said hitting harder without making error. I still tend to loop with a closed racket and mainly with topsheet. To me its a technical problem and not a setup problem per se.

Maybe I am wrong but I think a setup would be too fast for someone if the ball leaves the racket before you can generate topspin and/or its uncontrollable in the short game (too unpredictable, bouncy) so you go for a slower setup instead.

No I mean just the normal glayzer. Simply saying a setup is too fast is not the right way of saying it. You have played 8 years, your feel is alright and you definitely are not a beginner. Actually I have only played 3 years. So u have much more experience. But I do have a good understanding of what the mechanics of a stroke does and how it reacts with the blade and rubber. Your blade is fine for your level. Im taking about your rubber, it’s too hard the H3N. A slow rubber doesn’t mean a lot of control. A rubber can be slow and soft, fast and soft and also slow and hard and also fast and hard. H3 is very hard and if you can’t activate the sponge you can’t give the correct amount of topspin you need to use the arc you create hence why yo shoot too far many times when you try to hit hard.

A rubber where you can easily active or atleast easier activate it than H3 would be so much better for your development until you are ready. Since I suspect you like sticky rubbers glayzer is a good suggestion.

Also your technique is also quite European with Chinese rubbers, so you don’t use them correctly

I hope this explains it better.

 

[kindof99]

You won't create much power if your hand moves before your leg/body gives power. And you won't give good power to the ball when your elbow is far away from your body when you contact the ball.

 

[NetProphet]

Interesting point with the follow through. I thought that has something to do with my backstroke since I tend to correct my motion just before the contact and depending how much correction it needs the follow through looks also "bad".

Well, based on what I've been told and shown by coaches the follow through is extensive elbow snap.
So it is almost all coming from the elbow (assisted by the rotation fwd of the waist) but not the upper arm or anywhere else.
And the starting point is a fairly straight arm, as in, just letting your arm fall down behind your right thigh as you rotate back to begin your stroke.
It seems to me that your follow through is sometimes abbreviated.
Mine finishes central, just above my head. Yours seems to finish short and before your right ear.

But I don't understand the waist rotation and core part since I see myself rotate with the hips.

Yes. What I'm saying is our ability to remain constant and consistent with these strokes in rally is dependent on our ability to keep twisting that core fwd and back.
Where many ppl breakdown is timing. Speed becomes too mich.
Example; after a big shot, the block comes back quickly and they're not ready to rotate back in time to start the next stroke early enough and so they're jammed. This leads to us going for arm movement only to compensate the next shot.

But right now it looks like I rotate and accelerate with the hips seperately but synchron without using the energy of the hips as an additional to my arm movement. That also has to do with the fact that I seem to generate enough power that I already (when hit hard) that it goes out.

Well that is timing again. Poor timing then there's not enough topspin on the ball to bring it down. This is where D09c is unforgiving. It is a HARD rubber and sponge and so spin generation is not easy with it. Get your timing wrong and what you get is the speed from the gears in the sponge assisted by a relatively quick blade (I don't really care what 'speed 'label' is on your blade, it is relatively a fast blade) without the spin that only happens when you penetrate the rubber and sponge at the correct point in the stroke, with enough racket speed and the proper racket angle.
Was this not easier with G09c?
There is no reason for you to miss the table even once from 20 shots in this drill.

I have a match on Thursday after which I'm switching to G09c on FH because I'm having the same problems with the D09c, it's just too hard for me to reach the consistency levels needed in league play, for the reasons given above.

 

[backspacer]

Which Exercises should I focus on? multiball is very rare and I don't want to do it with only 30 balls and then we switch (I get cold in between). So I want to only do it if we can have more balls. I don't have the luxory to only receive multiball without having to give it back. Which is fair but as I said it is finished in 30sec and then we have to collect balls and I give it to him and the frequency is quite low since the break is longer than the actual playtime with less balls.

To not overflood this thread I would appreciate if only people that are better than me and with knowledge about this problem comments on this thread.

Next season half starts in about 1-1,5 months

Get more balls? You can buy something like this to reduce the time collecting balls.

 

[Dr Evil]

Fix your backswing by not doing it. Don't backswing at all (i.e., keep your elbow stationary with respect to your hip), and just turn your hip. Let your elbow extend and then flex/snap forward as you contact the ball. The point is to keep a solid connection between your elbow and body, with your legs/hip turn providing the power. That connection is why core tension is important, so the power transfer from legs to hips through core to shoulder and elbow doesn't get dissipated. A "forehand fixing machine" might be helpful:

View attachment forehand_fixing_machine.mov

 

[Zezima]

You won't create much power if your hand moves before your leg/body gives power. And you won't give good power to the ball when your elbow is far away from your body when you contact the ball.

at the contact even pros have their elbow further away from their body (elbow just starts very close to the body at the backstroke before accelerating forwards). But I do agree with you that my arm moves separate without using the power from my hips even though I rotate the hips

 

[Zezima]

Fix your backswing by not doing it. Don't backswing at all (i.e., keep your elbow stationary with respect to your hip), and just turn your hip. Let your elbow extend and then flex/snap forward as you contact the ball. The point is to keep a solid connection between your elbow and body, with your legs/hip turn providing the power. That connection is why core tension is important, so the power transfer from legs to hips through core to shoulder and elbow doesn't get dissipated. A "forehand fixing machine" might be helpful:

View attachment 39521

I am not sure if I understood you correctly. I do forehand drives like in this video using my hips only and almost no arm.
But my loop looks completely different. There I try to apply legs hips and everything but it all breakes due to many reasons.

1. Backstroke - racket angle goes from closed to open
2. I also hit at the top of the ball with that closed angle so I give more speed to the ball which makes it go out more because I loop with only the topsheet without activating the sponge
3. I loop with only the topsheet without activating the sponge - never cared or understood how to spin with activating the sponge only with topsheet and hitting it "thin"
4. Many errors since my contact window is even slimmer with that racket angle and brushing this thinly means I also miss many balls entirely -> loss of confidence or I loop "slower".
5. Point 4. makes me even more cautious so I have to be even more precise which only happens when I do the adjustments with my arm and hand in the last moment -> stroke doesn't look good

I do think before thinking about insane power I have to start practising and learning how to spin the ball by activating the sponge.
I will glue a barely used g1 rubber on a petr korbel jp wood (With the hope that, that setup is easier to active and spin the ball with the sponge) and then try to transfer that feeling to my setup later.
I think this looping with only the topsheet vs with sponge is my biggest issue atm and would also explain why all these rubbers I tried lately on my fh (d09c,g09c even g1 and now h3n) felt the same with just slight difference since I never really looped with the sponge and if I hit hard it was just the sponge without any brushing.

I am sorry for repeating myself a few times but just wanted to make my observation and understanding for now clear.

 

[Zezima]

Get more balls? You can buy something like this to reduce the time collecting balls.

One club(weaker club) has enough balls. They have some new unpacked aswell. So I wouldn't want to mix my balls with the club ones.

Second club the one I play league at the highest league atm (county) plays only with 1 3 star trainingsball. I bring my balls there if I can find someone to do systemtraining. But I am waiting for a ball collector net its exhausting having to collect those balls from the ground one at a time.

 

[Zezima]

Well, based on what I've been told and shown by coaches the follow through is extensive elbow snap.
So it is almost all coming from the elbow (assisted by the rotation fwd of the waist) but not the upper arm or anywhere else.
And the starting point is a fairly straight arm, as in, just letting your arm fall down behind your right thigh as you rotate back to begin your stroke.
It seems to me that your follow through is sometimes abbreviated.
Mine finishes central, just above my head. Yours seems to finish short and before your right ear.

Yes. What I'm saying is our ability to remain constant and consistent with these strokes in rally is dependent on our ability to keep twisting that core fwd and back.
Where many ppl breakdown is timing. Speed becomes too mich.
Example; after a big shot, the block comes back quickly and they're not ready to rotate back in time to start the next stroke early enough and so they're jammed. This leads to us going for arm movement only to compensate the next shot.

Well that is timing again. Poor timing then there's not enough topspin on the ball to bring it down. This is where D09c is unforgiving. It is a HARD rubber and sponge and so spin generation is not easy with it. Get your timing wrong and what you get is the speed from the gears in the sponge assisted by a relatively quick blade (I don't really care what 'speed 'label' is on your blade, it is relatively a fast blade) without the spin that only happens when you penetrate the rubber and sponge at the correct point in the stroke, with enough racket speed and the proper racket angle.
Was this not easier with G09c?
There is no reason for you to miss the table even once from 20 shots in this drill.

I have a match on Thursday after which I'm switching to G09c on FH because I'm having the same problems with the D09c, it's just too hard for me to reach the consistency levels needed in league play, for the reasons given above.

I mean my fh rubber is h3n and not d09c but I agree with your point about the hardness of the rubber. I just never understood the rubber mechanics to the stroke itself (read my earlier comments above)
So I could never say this rubber is "too hard for me" because I never really looped with the sponge and only with the topsheet. So I thought I can play with the rubber since all I cared for was me creating spin on the ball - so if I could create spin = rubber works for me.

 

[Amayzde]

Okay I have only watched a bit of the first and 2nd, so I might have missed some specific things. But here are my takeaways:

1. Your technique is good enough. you know how to hit a forehand with good speed and spin. So I wouldnt spend too much time trying to perfect it. There is not much to gain here.

2. What causes you to miss is the change is rythm. Especially when the ball comes faster you seem to hit the edge alot. This conclusion gets verified when watching you hitting winner after winner on the robot. Because the robot feeds you the exact same ball every time.

3. You keep creeping back during the rally. There is nothing wrong to get a little away from the table once you pick up some pace, but at some point you have to stay and not move further away unless you opponent starts to actually counter topspin your balls.


So next time you go to train, try these drills to isolate the rythm changes:
1. Open up and react to active block.
So what you do here is you spin a slow ball > your opponent blocks the ball actively (so the ball comes back faster) > topspin this ball with nearly no backswing: the ball is already fast, so no need to add more speed. > after this catch the ball and repeat. Only focus on these 2 topspins.

2. Open up and re-spin passive block.
Same as first drill but instead of an active block your opponent gives you a slower return by blocking completely passive. Now after the openup, you have to wait for the ball to get to you before you hit the next topspin. Depending on your distance to the table, you might even have to step in.

3. Combine 1 & 2.
So now your opponent will vary between active- and passive blocking.

 

[NextLevel]

For the record, I dont understand your video. I also dont understand your issues or requests for comments on your forehand. You might be phrasing it in a humble way to entertain the usual negative comments but honestly, your forehand on the video is pretty effective, my problem with your practice is that you often stop using your strokes when you get a ball you consider awkward and bail out with a low quality soft shot. In fact those awkward balls are chances to adapt to new spins and push the limits of your technique or to try a proven technique for posing problems to the opponent (chop blocks, snakes, punches) i prefer to push the limits od my technique and apply either heavy brush or power loop the ball and then use the result to understand how to adapt my technique to similar balls under pressure. A lot of this is related to adapting your timing and contact.

Is the rubber too hard for you? Sure. But most pro rubbers are too hard for amateurs to maximize consistently but that doesnt mean that we cant get good quality as you are doijg on specific shots. Is the technique perfect? No, but no one has perfect technique, the real quesriin is what shots in matches are tou trying to play that you cannot hit with this technique. The whole Euro vs Chinese rubber thing is over kill, the issue is not what you use but whether what you use facilitates how you want to play. You can use a rubber worse than Ma Long and it can still be good for how you play if it lets you play the shots you need to play. The good thing about this rubber for your game is that since you only like to brush, this enables tou to brush thicker and get good results. Then problem you might have is that when out of position you might not have the confident acceleration to use this rubber to get safe trajectories but that is why in practice it is important to stop bailing out with useless shots and to test the limits of your technique on all balls on both forehand and backhand. You might be surprised at how well you can pick up certain balls with the right acceleration or you may learn that the rubber choice is bad because it doesn't let you attack certain balls with confidence. Sometimes the way you bail out of awkward balls, one cannot explain the benefit of using inverted the way you use it over using short pips

Long story short: while your issues are related to the hardness od the rubbers, what you are doing is adequate and more than adequate. Don't confuse your athleticism with your technique. Stop bailing out in practice with a useless shot when you get an awkward ball, try to topspin that ball and surprise yourself. Use the result to adjust the swing for next time you get the same ball. If you want to look like a perfect technique player, whatever get a slightly less demanding rubber and get a blocker who will control the ball better for you and play around with your whip and footwork. But in all honesty, what you are doing is more than adequate, the challenge is not in technique but in using the technique to hit specific shots in match situations. Add variation by mastering your timing and contact.

Finally with your height, you will not look like most players do playing TT if your shots are effective. That said, give it your best shot but I suspect it is more important to be effective than to look correct.

 

[NetProphet]

Okay I have only watched a bit of the first and 2nd, so I might have missed some specific things. But here are my takeaways:

1. Your technique is good enough. you know how to hit a forehand with good speed and spin. So I wouldnt spend too much time trying to perfect it. There is not much to gain here.

2. What causes you to miss is the change is rythm. Especially when the ball comes faster you seem to hit the edge alot. This conclusion gets verified when watching you hitting winner after winner on the robot. Because the robot feeds you the exact same ball every time.

3. You keep creeping back during the rally. There is nothing wrong to get a little away from the table once you pick up some pace, but at some point you have to stay and not move further away unless you opponent starts to actually counter topspin your balls.


So next time you go to train, try these drills to isolate the rythm changes:
1. Open up and react to active block.
So what you do here is you spin a slow ball > your opponent blocks the ball actively (so the ball comes back faster) > topspin this ball with nearly no backswing: the ball is already fast, so no need to add more speed. > after this catch the ball and repeat. Only focus on these 2 topspins.

2. Open up and re-spin passive block.
Same as first drill but instead of an active block your opponent gives you a slower return by blocking completely passive. Now after the openup, you have to wait for the ball to get to you before you hit the next topspin. Depending on your distance to the table, you might even have to step in.

3. Combine 1 & 2.
So now your opponent will vary between active- and passive blocking.

Saying it's the change in rhythm that causes misses is too general.
What does the change in rhythm actually cause?
It causes poor timing, and that's caused by a breakdown in the entire stroke mechanics because it is not ingrained enough, not fast enough and doesn't track the ball properly and it's also linked to the follow through and reset from the previous shot.
You also say the technique is good enough. But what is good enough? That's totally open to interpretation from absolutely everyone. I don't believe he thinks it's good enough, and not to be harsh but nor do I. I expect one well placed or fast block means FH mistake and end of point and I've also watched more than 10 of his matches, there is lots of room for improvement and he is trying to do exactly that. I can't see how saying it's good enough is helping.
As for the robot, I could not watch 40 minutes of it so I only watched the first two minutes but more than half of the shots were missed in that 2 minutes 😬.

 

[IB66]

Fix your backswing by not doing it. Don't backswing at all (i.e., keep your elbow stationary with respect to your hip), and just turn your hip. Let your elbow extend and then flex/snap forward as you contact the ball. The point is to keep a solid connection between your elbow and body, with your legs/hip turn providing the power. That connection is why core tension is important, so the power transfer from legs to hips through core to shoulder and elbow doesn't get dissipated. A "forehand fixing machine" might be helpful:

View attachment 39521

Great training aid!! Good for close to the table, away from the table then more arm can be used.

 

[jk1980]

Great training aid!! Good for close to the table, away from the table then more arm can be used.

There is an even better one. I think it is called 31° PJ which is kind of a arm cast that mounts your upper arm to your hip, so you really need to use underarm and rotation to put power onto the ball and with this you can not get the kinetic chain wrong, because without hip you simply won't even hit the ball

Here is what it looks like