US Open Table Tennis Championships-2025 (16–21 December 2025)

[Der_Echte]

Anyone from the forum participating in this years' event?

Der_Echte played... 7 or 8 events.

Had the best tourney of my life with very solid play above my level across all 5 days of the comp.

Gave some trouble to players well above my level. defeated a tough one above my level. Won 3-0 and gave zero breathable oxygen to all those players rated below me.

Consistent strong performance, you could never say that about any of my major long tourneys except this one.

In these tourneys, nearly ALL the players rated below you are way higher than their rating and many play above their level. I gave zero chance to these players this time... and in every big tourney, I will be troubled by some of these or lose to some of these. NOT this time.

 

[Der_Echte]

I was also coaching a lot more than competing, was with the numerous Freemont Table Tennis Academy kids.

 

[maxtor]

What's your rating prior the event started?

 

[dewnyc]

There’s always at least 1 player who’s either a sandbagger or very underrated, and wins multiple events. I see these in the results:
Mingxiang Fan, who won Adult u1900 & u1700, and was finalist in the u1800;
Bingyu Li, who won Adult u1500 & u1200, and reached finals of u1400 & u1300;
Weizhong Ji, who won the Junior u1700, u1600, u1500, u1400, and reached the finals of u1900 and u1800.
Also Nick Lee who was rated in 1600s who won the Adult u2000 and beat some 2400 players

 

[Der_Echte]

There’s always at least 1 player who’s either a sandbagger or very underrated, and wins multiple events. I see these in the results:
Mingxiang Fan, who won Adult u1900 & u1700, and was finalist in the u1800;
Bingyu Li, who won Adult u1500 & u1200, and reached finals of u1400 & u1300;
Weizhong Ji, who won the Junior u1700, u1600, u1500, u1400, and reached the finals of u1900 and u1800.
Also Nick Lee who was rated in 1600s who won the Adult u2000 and beat some 2400 players

Hahahahahhhaaaahhh, you so correct and are only showing a little of the true level of the players rated below you.

A LOT of the Canadian contingent from somewhere was real extreme like this, maybe a couple of who you mentioned are above.

Even the average dude, gal, or kid in your group rated 200 points below you is really at or above your level... and playing 2+ levels above their true level to have a CHANCE to compete... so you have to play 5 levels above your level to keep even... that is not happening for adult players very often if ever.

Consistently playing 2+ levels above your level and sustaining that for an entire long tourney is exceptional and a great sign... but that is still not enough to go places.

That is what I use to measure performance and determine if I did OK, good, well, or great.

Again, so DIFFICULT to play levels above your level consistently throughout such a big tourney... especially when the big majority of the crowd rated lower than you are actually better players than you... but without your rating.

 

[Der_Echte]

What's your rating prior the event started?

I came into this tourney rated around 1650ish.

I MIGHT make 15 points out of this tourney and it is by far the best I ever did in terms of upping my performance level and the consistency to maintain it. Tourneys are difficult, big ones even more so.

I was nearly 2100, but that was 5 years ago and a lot changed. Right now, a consistent 1600-1700 rating if you do 10 tourneys in a year is where 1900-2000 level players were a 5-6 years ago.

Many more players get professional training and upped their level... plus 5 years with this newer gen of ABS balls (easier to hit through spin) and training/building game around attack/counter/counter has made nearly everyone better and there are only so many points to go around.

Our only real daily club in a metro area of 3 million shut down... so I was not able to hit with 6-8 players at 2000-2100 regularly. (now only tables setup at a community center a few days a week for only matches... and the gym we stashed a few tables for on-demand... difficult to get space to setup the tables when you want it... and the racquetball court maybe available has white walls and crappy acoustics, difficult to even train... and next to no one here wants training, only goof off or match action.

Started to private coach, volunteer coach (UC Davis) and part time coach (Freemont TT Academy) and when you do that and not regularly play vs the high level players, your level drops like a rock.

I am way better skilled than I was 5 years ago, but my current rating is proper given what is going on.

 

[maxtor]

That's good! Best of luck and wish you to be comfortable with 1800-1900 in the next year

 

[hope2getgood]

There’s always at least 1 player who’s either a sandbagger or very underrated, and wins multiple events. I see these in the results:
Mingxiang Fan, who won Adult u1900 & u1700, and was finalist in the u1800;
Bingyu Li, who won Adult u1500 & u1200, and reached finals of u1400 & u1300;
Weizhong Ji, who won the Junior u1700, u1600, u1500, u1400, and reached the finals of u1900 and u1800.
Also Nick Lee who was rated in 1600s who won the Adult u2000 and beat some 2400 players

This was my first event and all the sandbagging left me pretty disillusioned. I feel bad for the first time lower rated players who paid a lot of good money to travel and play only to be thwarted by rampant sandbagging. It seems few are lucky to advance out of a sandbagger free group and single elimination rounds.

I still had fun but I probably wouldn't pursue it again though. I did this primarily to play others at my level but the play was so limited due to the presence of people 200-300pts above the event's rating. It was fun to watch and support club members as well as see different play styles and high level play.

Natural and unintended sandbagging is easier to see as rapid progression in the low rated events but often what I saw seemed like deliberate sandbagging.

Let's see.

U1000 - Yi Deng - Likely a solid 1700 player. Lost to a 2300, 2x 1900's, and a 1700. Beat a 1770 and 1650. Could use more win/loss data points to determine though.

U1200 - Bingyu Li - Probably a 1550+ player, likely higher. Won U1500, finals U1300 & U1400, quarter finals 1700.

U1300 - Chen, Yijie - my guess ~1700s

U1400s - Chetan Balaji Naduri - probably also ~1700s. Hard for me to tell with this one.

U1500 - Bingyu Li again. If he's not 1700+ is it really sandbagged? Definitely sandbagged U1300s.

U1600 - Ivan Sonido - at a glance this doesn't look bad. He didn't play any higher level players to gauge his ceiling.

U1700 - Mingxiang Fan - Also won 1900 finals, 1800 semifinals. Hard for me to say but definitely 1950s+.

U1800 - meh

U1900 - Mingxiang Fan - again

U2000 - Nick Lee - I don't know what sang bagging looks like here. Dude's pretty good but I can't really comment on it.

I should caveat that it seems like this thing is at a critical mass of 'if you can't beat them, join them'. So sandbaggers do some some of my sympathies but not many. Again sucks for the lower rated players who don't know the lay of the land.

 

[maxtor]

Last year, Sukhada Kulkarni took golds in U1200, U1500, U1700, U1800. Beated 2240 player and got adjusted to 2135 after the US OPEN 2024 event.
So unfortunately it happens every year

 

[hope2getgood]

That's a shame. She entered ten events to include the U1000, U1300, and U1400 and defaulted in the first round of each. Presumably after winning the U1500 and U1200 on Tuesday followed by U1700 on Wednesday she was either convinced or forced to default on the U1400 later than day and the, U1000, and U1300 on the following days.

I wonder what her side of the story looks like. How much pressure was there from her club/coach vs. her sole intent to win as many golds as possible? Also how did the defaults come to be? If not for the defaults she would have likely had 7 golds out of the 10 registered events.

 

[Der_Echte]

This was my first event and all the sandbagging left me pretty disillusioned. I feel bad for the first time lower rated players who paid a lot of good money to travel and play only to be thwarted by rampant sandbagging. It seems few are lucky to advance out of a sandbagger free group and single elimination rounds.

I still had fun but I probably wouldn't pursue it again though. I did this primarily to play others at my level but the play was so limited due to the presence of people 200-300pts above the event's rating. It was fun to watch and support club members as well as see different play styles and high level play.

Natural and unintended sandbagging is easier to see as rapid progression in the low rated events but often what I saw seemed like deliberate sandbagging.

Let's see.

U1000 - Yi Deng - Likely a solid 1700 player. Lost to a 2300, 2x 1900's, and a 1700. Beat a 1770 and 1650. Could use more win/loss data points to determine though.

U1200 - Bingyu Li - Probably a 1550+ player, likely higher. Won U1500, finals U1300 & U1400, quarter finals 1700.

U1300 - Chen, Yijie - my guess ~1700s

U1400s - Chetan Balaji Naduri - probably also ~1700s. Hard for me to tell with this one.

U1500 - Bingyu Li again. If he's not 1700+ is it really sandbagged? Definitely sandbagged U1300s.

U1600 - Ivan Sonido - at a glance this doesn't look bad. He didn't play any higher level players to gauge his ceiling.

U1700 - Mingxiang Fan - Also won 1900 finals, 1800 semifinals. Hard for me to say but definitely 1950s+.

U1800 - meh

U1900 - Mingxiang Fan - again

U2000 - Nick Lee - I don't know what sang bagging looks like here. Dude's pretty good but I can't really comment on it.

I should caveat that it seems like this thing is at a critical mass of 'if you can't beat them, join them'. So sandbaggers do some some of my sympathies but not many. Again sucks for the lower rated players who don't know the lay of the land.

Hi H2GG,

You have under-classified players for a few reasons.

1 - Player improving, but just cannot get to tourneys... many places in USA you need to drive 3-7 hrs to get to a tourney... so not many tourneys. A few in USA are like this.

2 - You have a professionally trained kid who does multiple rating events is properly rated after a tourney... but is rapidly improving and cannot get enough tourneys to keep up with his or her level. The son of Khoa Nguyen is an example of this - doing their best, playing honest, but improving real fast before the next tourney.

3 - You have foreign players who do ONE big USA tourney a year - the US Open... and are professionally trained... and are rapidly improving... at the lower levels, like 1200, they were 1150ish rated after the last tourney, but are now 1600, 1700+ level... now they are competing in 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600 events and ONLY the 300-600 points worth of sandbagging ringer crowd has any kind of chance

4 - You have USA big TT hotspot area (LA, Bay Area, etc) professional training clubs who have a very large kid player training base... these clubs keep their top prospects in a very closed loop system... these kids stay in their system competing only vs each other, both in league and their club run/other big club run sanctioned tourneys... so you have the kids make say 100 USATT level, but will compete in U200 event only... when they are 1500 USATT level, they will compete in only U300 event in their club run sanctioned tourney or in another such club's sanctioned tourney... all the big clubs do it this way, just a matter of which club is relatively reasonable or takes it way too far. Once the kid reaches a certain level, they get UNLEASHED in a big tourney... usually the US Nationals, sometimes the US Open.

Without any real way to take care of this... it is a big fairness problem for adult players who play honest. USATT addressed this by having tourney directors make both Kid and adult divisions for each level. This does not address the unfairness issue vs kids or kids/adults who are properly rated and play doubles. (One way under-rated player ruins classification fairness)

 

[Der_Echte]

Once a kid is unleashed at the big tourney, now the kid is on the other end of the stick... kid comes out of tourney kinda rated near true level (but not high enough due to the sandbaggers) and is no longer 5 levels better than the players in the events they enter... only 2 or so until they improve before the next big tourney.

Once this building the kid's level behind the scenes is going on a for a few years... the big tourneys kid events are structured like so...

Lowest events - USATT 200 to 1000 these are utterly sandbagged like a mudder fudder... even good sandbaggers have no chance to get far.... let alone properly rated kid players who are classified as the "A" player in their group will meet 1-2 of the sandbagger crowd in their group... unless they have the business card of Tanya Harding LLC Consulting, no chance to advance out of group.

Lower events - USATT 1100-1700/1800 The same sandbagging going on... with the best ringers in 4-5 events (think 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, 1700) and the best ringer wins 3-5 events... these events are so filled with the ringers, even a kid rated 300-400 points lower than their true level will not go far. EVERYONE is playing a minimum of two levels above their level (they are pro-trained and READY to compete) and add this to how much they are under-classified... so even the ringer 300 points sandbagging must play 4-5 levels above their level just to have a chance to make the round of 8 or semis. A properly rated or slightly under-rated kid has to play out of his or her mind the entire draw just to make it to the semis... nearly impossible, but sometimes some kid in this class gets on a roll and has a good coach.

Higher events USATT U1900 U2000 - 80% of the field is already playing enough tourneys to be somewhat properly rated... and is simply improving and cannot do tourneys fast enough to keep properly classified... a few in the field are sandbagging ringers. the average player has a much better chance to go far... but never far enough. Average player has to play 4 levels above their level to reach round of 64 and meets other such motivated/focused players. Dog eat dog stuff going on even among the non-ringer crowd... simply good players getting better and peaking. Even the ringer has to play 2 levels above their level to make it.

The net effect of all this is massive ratings points deflation (kids lose to under-rated players who lose to other under-rated players and do not get upwards adjusted) among the kids... and many of these kids carry this into age 18...

... and in the big clubs, there is a similar thing going on with young adults. What was 2000 level 5 yrs ago, you have young adults in the big clubs improving to this level, but the numbers crunch of the young vs young adult and ringer stops them from getting the points to reflect their level... so another net effect is even among the adult 1000-2000 crowd, we get a lot of rating points deflation that tapers off a good bot after 2000-2100.

Over 1/2 of the adult 1700 crowd (who play in big TT area tourneys several times a year) are at the same play skill level as the 2000+ crowd did 5 yrs ago.

Much of this is from EVERYONE getting better (the new gen ABS ball makes it easy to hit through spin and the pro trained players are now playing a fast at the table attack/counter game only 2100+ did 5 yrs ago)(Self learned players do better vs spin than ever before) BETTER TRAINING/more big clubs (Plus training is getting better and vids better more available) (coaching is getting better)(and the ratings system could adjust to this in a singular occurrence - but with many sandbaggers in same events/divisions across many events - these do not get properly adjusted)

5 yrs ago, you did NOT see 2000-2100 player rallies using a pile of flips and counters and counter that counter close to the table... now you see 1500-1600 rated pro trained players play this with QUALITY and CONSISTENCY as their regular play style and response.

Now these level of players' rallies are like serve under to FH, get it BH banana flipped, server counters the flip, opponent counters the counter and wins point, or serve crushes that counter and wins point.

This is how the sport at the amateur levels has changed in USA.

 

[hope2getgood]

I can see why players are under classified. I heard some people complaining about under-classified players in the high rated events, using the term sandbagging. I don't take issue with that because of the valid reasons why someone may be under-classified such as 1, 2, 3.

I'm simply left wondering why in points 1, 2, and 3 they enter the lower rated events, -300 points or more, assuming that they're cognizant of what their current rating would be. What stops them from entering better fitting events as the tournament approaches?

Are they locked into the low rated events not anticipating their growth.

Someone spoke to me about #4 and I wonder if that is simply the club arranging that situation such that the club has more trophies to their name? The player being subject to the club's morals?

 

[Der_Echte]

I made that real post explaining the cause/effects of the sandbagging... but honestly, this dynamic has been going on for decades (players getting better while some do not get better or do not improve as fast as others) (new ways to train, play the sport, and compete are developed and improved upon)...

... but honestly, it was not as wide difference of levels at all levels as the current situation and it is still moving stronger and stronger that way.

Here, I am not complaining, just pointing out what/how it is going on.

As an opposing coach, this big tourney at 2025 US Open, I saw a number of the improving kids kinda fairly rated play vs our clubs kinda fairly rated kids... and NARROWLY lose a very close match in the 5th... and the kid on the short end feel like they so failed and not worth much...

... repeatedly I told such kids that they were already playing 2-3 levels above their level and even ELEVATED their play... just that opponent did the same and it was close could go either way. I tell these kids that the have some serious dedication to training, discipline and mental performance that I did not have until I was well into my years of military service.

This example is what happens at big tourneys, both today and 3 decades ago.

 

[hope2getgood]

Wow. Thank you for the reply. It is very informative.

 

[Der_Echte]

I can see why players are under classified. I heard some people complaining about under-classified players in the high rated events, using the term sandbagging. I don't take issue with that because of the valid reasons why someone may be under-classified such as 1, 2, 3.

I'm simply left wondering why in points 1, 2, and 3 they enter the lower rated events, -300 points or more, assuming that they're cognizant of what their current rating would be. What stops them from entering better fitting events as the tournament approaches?

Are they locked into the low rated events not anticipating their growth.

Someone spoke to me about #4 and I wonder if that is simply the club arranging that situation such that the club has more trophies to their name? The player being subject to the club's morals?

I didn't discuss the culture of the PARENTS. These (and the pro club coaches) drive it. many of these parents want to see their cherished kid thrive and win... as much as they can and as often as they can before the next wave of ringers buries them in the next big tourney 50 foot crushing tidal wave.

Our club kids fell to so many of the sandbagger crowd (but one player managed to win a couple matches vs this class) Our head coach spoke to the tourney director about this... but it is a political, culture, and money thing in my opinion.

The tourney director SHOULD have reasonable oversight and means to ensure things are not 10 levels out of hand.

but to be real, a lot of the things a TD could or should do to stop this, will result in a lot of players not registering to play... big tourneys are not cheap to organize and operate... there is a real risk of not breaking even financially if too many players do not register. A tourney director could do all that stuff and the tourney fail or not make enough over expenses, which the national association depends upon... USATT does not get huge money from the government, donations, of OC funds.


Morally, we would want and expect a clean and fair tourney. Maybe the TD should do those things and see if the participation level and financials go bad or not.

it is and also is not as simple as we think to get to a cleaner tourney.

USATT got half the issue solved by making separate kids and adult events for the same classification levels. We saw increased participation levels in the years afterwards.

TDs and the natl association could listen to and evaluate constructive ideas... it might help them and the tourney players.

 

[Der_Echte]

Any of the things a TD could do to evaluate and classify a player could be thwarted by the player simply by playing poorly in the in-person evaluator supervised session.

maybe the only realistic and simple thing to do is make club-trained kid only events (much like the adult and junior events) and let the ringers duke it out while leaving the non pro trained kids free of the ringers... but are there enough of such kids to make their separate divisions? Probably not.

You could mandate that those who did not do 3-4 tourneys to firm up their ratings do an in-person session the day before the tourney... still, this means extra expense for both kid and tourney... then if adjustments are made, it RUINS the draw and makes it 1000% for the tourney operator to make a smooth tourney.

You could take away the lower wins for a player who won the U1200, 1300, 1400, 1500, and 1600 and let him keep the highest division win... but really, that will solve some of the unfairness and make such players not enter... then tourney may not break even. Would work if there was a big moneyed sponsor... but our sport isn't there.

Just about any means to mitigate unfairness can be thwarted or had worse unintended consequences.

Any kind of solutions, outside of TD using own personal and final assessment/judgement will not be effective IMO... and a TD with such power could be a good or bad thing.

That takes us back to where we are.

Yesterday, and today, to play in a big tourney, you have to play 4-5 levels above your level just to have a fighting chance to advance, let alone go deep into your division.

 

[hope2getgood]

I did see some unsavory parents yelling at their kids. I forgot to consider them.

I do see some difficulties setting up a cleaner tourney. Such as increased number of players in each event. That might be mitigated by subsequently inflating ratings.

I suspect the TD must have intervened in the case of the 2024 U.S. Open. Maybe blocking your participating in lower rated events upon winning an event.

I also wonder how sustainable the sport is at a competitive level. I find that people such as myself and the other slowly improving adults would not want to do a large tournament again. But it's possible I'm in the minority and sandbagging is the status quo with wide recognition and awareness. If new players/parents are aware of it then coming in then it's not so bitter compared to expecting an 'honest' tournament.

Do you have anything to share about tournaments in other countries? There was an advertisement for the Mexico open and I'm curious if that would be less sandbagged. There's easy access from South California so maybe not.

 

[hope2getgood]

Man. It seems like everybody has it tough.

 

[Der_Echte]

I did see some unsavory parents yelling at their kids. I forgot to consider them.

I do see some difficulties setting up a cleaner tourney. Such as increased number of players in each event. That might be mitigated by subsequently inflating ratings.

I suspect the TD must have intervened in the case of the 2024 U.S. Open. Maybe blocking your participating in lower rated events upon winning an event.

I also wonder how sustainable the sport is at a competitive level. I find that people such as myself and the other slowly improving adults would not want to do a large tournament again. But it's possible I'm in the minority and sandbagging is the status quo with wide recognition and awareness. If new players/parents are aware of it then coming in then it's not so bitter compared to expecting an 'honest' tournament.

Do you have anything to share about tournaments in other countries? There was an advertisement for the Mexico open and I'm curious if that would be less sandbagged. There's easy access from South California so maybe not.

The attraction to do the large tourneys like the US Nationals, The LA Open, The Meiklejohn Seniors, the US Open... are several. Talking Adult players and old senior players here.

1 - Social. You see old friends and have a lot of fun, meeting, talking to, and playing, plus new friends you make. TT players on the whole are great people compared to the rest of society.

2 - Competitive. you have adult only events. Sandbagging not so rampant like in hte kids' divisions, but it still exists and it comes out in these big tourneys. After you been around a while, you know who the ringers are. You still have to play 2-3 levels above your level just to perform average for your rating in these big tourneys.

3. Viewing. Many adult players go there to see high level players play... or even enter the Open division just to see them and lose to them.

4 - After tourney day going out to eat with friends. This could be the very best of the experience, if you do not stay at venue and pay 2-3 times what you should pay.

5. CHEERING for friends... this could also be the best aspect to go to a big tourney. I cannot tell you how many people I meet and make friends with. I lost to "A" player in my 2200 group... he won group and was in his R64 match... I saw him lose 1st game... called him over, told him 4 things to do and WHAM !!! he went on a tear and finished 3-1... Made a good friend of that player and his wife. Even if I did not coach him uninvited, I would have cheered for him and he/his wife would have liked it.

I would not discourage you to avoid big tourneys... just understand what one needs to do to compete and do one's best.