Technique correction - Trying to Fix my FH backstroke + hitting through the sponge

[Zezima]

placeholder

 

[MORTtheORT]

I m

placeho

Your time stamp of your better FH is good. Weight going forward into the shot, not just twisting and you can see a few where your feet are behind you and your weight is forward (leaning forward catching yourself) and those are particularly good FHs. Even if the ball is on your hip, if you are going to top spin, go forward still...better having a chance of a good quality shot then a weak shit that a good player will kill every time.

I think my best topspins is from around 13:30 to 15:15. I remember having a good multiballsession for a minute or so. Motion wise it looks the same especially after 14:15 but for some reason I had good contact on the ball.

25-30 is a drill I do with the youth coach (opening up parallel after his random long pushes)

Overall i tried with different angles and for me againdt blockballs open bat angle just doesnt work. Balls fly out. Not sure how other loop kill with an open bat angle.

I feel like quality of my loops got better than the looks of my backstroke lol. But I am still not happy with my loops.

I had much more success when using and thinking actively about using my wrist. But speed wise its still far away from those 2200TTR topspins I see on reels/internet. They just full send it.

I also changed my fh rubber to a 3 weeks old sheet (old one was wearing out you can see it from the previous video) so not sure if I needed some adjustment time.

Also trained 5h 2 days in a row this video is from second 5h(wednesday). I say this because usually I train 1,5-2h. My legs are still exhausted today(friday) even though I had a rest day yesterday.

I am actually questioning how to proceed with my fh. Actively thinking about having a more open racket angle doesnt work against block balls. Racket angle looks still very closed. Might need to compare with the very first video in this thread if there is actually any change in the technique now..
Will do once I get out of the bed...

 

[MORTtheORT]

I think my best topspins is from around 13:30 to 15:15. I remember having a good multiballsession for a minute or so. Motion wise it looks the same especially after 14:15 but for some reason I had good contact on the ball.

25-30 is a drill I do with the youth coach (opening up parallel after his random long pushes)

Overall i tried with different angles and for me againdt blockballs open bat angle just doesnt work. Balls fly out. Not sure how other loop kill with an open bat angle.

I feel like quality of my loops got better than the looks of my backstroke lol. But I am still not happy with my loops.

I had much more success when using and thinking actively about using my wrist. But speed wise its still far away from those 2200TTR topspins I see on reels/internet. They just full send it.

I also changed my fh rubber to a 3 weeks old sheet (old one was wearing out you can see it from the previous video) so not sure if I needed some adjustment time.

Also trained 5h 2 days in a row this video is from second 5h(wednesday). I say this because usually I train 1,5-2h. My legs are still exhausted today(friday) even though I had a rest day yesterday.

I am actually questioning how to proceed with my fh. Actively thinking about having a more open racket angle doesnt work against block balls. Racket angle looks still very closed. Might need to compare with the very first video in this thread if there is actually any change in the technique now..
Will do once I get out of the bed...

Get your training partner for your open up training to drop them shorter so they are roughly only just going over the edge of the table. They are feeding you very long backspin which are bouncing high. You are a better player then this. In a match players are unlikely to give them to you like that, but more like an attempted short backspin that goes long in a pushing rally. You need your weight forward when you rotate for your backswing for these and it will make all your open ups a lot more powerful.

 

[vossi39]

For me, there is a simple reason why your loops lack speed (and maybe spin). You are not extending your arm at all.
The angle between upper arm and lower arm stay almost constant through out the entire swing. You need let your arm complete loose during backswing and then snap your forearm at the point of contact. This plus gripping the racket tighter at ball contact and try to instantly stop the forward swing will bring power and spin to your shots. The hip rotation alone will not do the job.

 

[banbekas]

You need to loosen up your swing and grip more. Since you’re trying to generate more speed, staying relaxed and whipping the stroke are key. Don’t worry too much about the blade angle, if you’re going for a loop kill, you obviously need to swing faster and rotate your body more aggressively

If you want to get technical, when you take your stance for a topspin, your blade should start as low as your thigh. Open your blade angle and contact the ball at around the 3 o’clock position. As you hit the ball, brush it forward. It's all on the wrist.

 

[Zezima]

Alright here is from the last Training session:

(Last 8min is match against my bro you can ignore that part, Drills are about 2-4min each)

What was I thinking about/Fokus?

1. Opening racket because otherwise it would go straight into the net. So basically my cue is showing the inside of the wrist to the table
   
   
2. And then let go of my wrist so I get that spin on the ball. Something I got from this video. Only difference is apart from forgetting to use it sometimes I don't go back as much as he shows. But what I do and need to do it seems is when hitting the ball going up or forwards however you interpret it. I am holding my wrist in natural position and just letting it through right at contact. That seems to give enough spin.
   
   
   
3. And then I was working on getting my elbow stable and forwards. I have a very wobbly elbow.
   
   
4. I need to analyse the video why the other half of the time right at contact it gets wobbly. My assumption is that something when accelerating forwards is off. I think my elbow is lagging behind if I turn my hips at wrong timing. Either too early or too late. Because when doing the shadowstroke slow it doesn't happen.
   
   
5. But man do I have good topspins if it works especially those where my elbow seems stable and moving forwards.
   
   
6. I could hit as hard as I wanted in this training session. Helped a lot having so many Balls aswell.

Focus on next Training sessions:
1. Keep working on making the elbow stable throughout the stroke stable = in a line moving upwards and forwards
2. Cue "show wrist to opponent" at acceleration
2. Let Wrist naturally snap at ball contact



I will also edit this post once I get the time to analyze the video and write out the timestamps and anything else that I find out.

As my example video for the FH topspin I use this from Franziska since after watching the Final 4 in Germany I really liked his FH and slowmo analysis also shows how clean his FH looks like. Also even frame by frame his elbow is not wobbly at all. And you can see he can hit the ball as hard as he wants. Also I like his backswing more than FZD (I find FZD is way too long also very hard to "copy") Franziska is also closer to my height ~1.9m. I would assume he plays a bit slower setup than what other pros play since he has the power built into his body.

 

[Zezima]

Can anyone with a better eye compare my elbow movement with that of franziska?
Is there a side angle of his forehand topspin like in my video 10:19 for example?

I want to understand the forearm part on the Topspin. Not the snapping part but the horizontal movement into the ball. How much are you supposed to show your inside elbow to the table? And also how much do you open the forearm horizontal direction (not talking about the angle between upper and forearm)
I feel like there lies my problem in those weird shots where my elbow gets wobbly.

sometimes the ball seems at my side at the elbow line and my forearm (racket is behind my elbow.)

Here he talks about elbow:

this is another youtuber:

this is me again:

So during the backstroke, I don't know if they forcefully pull their forearm back or not fact is their forearm is behind their elbow showing the inside of their elbow to the table.
During acceleration phase right before contacting the ball, they stop their elbow moving into the ball. Then they let their forearm pass their elbow and when the forearm has passed their elbow they contact the ball and just follow through with the elbow following the forearm in a straight line.

My question is how do you learn the proper sequence? Right now only half of the time I do it right. And I don't know why it works half of the time and the other half of the time it doesn't (keeping the elbow stable)

Also when my elbow gets wobbly (after hitting the ball) atleast on some balls I seem to end up shorter infront of my head (maybe stopping my elbow going forwards too soon and then its starts moving forwards again?)

If anyone who understands it could explain it to me and maybe even how to fix it that would be nice.

 

[NakiMaki]

Can anyone with a better eye compare my elbow movement with that of franziska?
Is there a side angle of his forehand topspin like in my video 10:19 for example?

I want to understand the forearm part on the Topspin. Not the snapping part but the horizontal movement into the ball. How much are you supposed to show your inside elbow to the table? And also how much do you open the forearm horizontal direction (not talking about the angle between upper and forearm)
I feel like there lies my problem in those weird shots where my elbow gets wobbly.

sometimes the ball seems at my side at the elbow line and my forearm (racket is behind my elbow.)

Here he talks about elbow:

this is another youtuber:

this is me again:

So during the backstroke, I don't know if they forcefully pull their forearm back or not fact is their forearm is behind their elbow showing the inside of their elbow to the table.
During acceleration phase right before contacting the ball, they stop their elbow moving into the ball. Then they let their forearm pass their elbow and when the forearm has passed their elbow they contact the ball and just follow through with the elbow following the forearm in a straight line.

My question is how do you learn the proper sequence? Right now only half of the time I do it right. And I don't know why it works half of the time and the other half of the time it doesn't (keeping the elbow stable)

Also when my elbow gets wobbly (after hitting the ball) atleast on some balls I seem to end up shorter infront of my head (maybe stopping my elbow going forwards too soon and then its starts moving forwards again?)

If anyone who understands it could explain it to me and maybe even how to fix it that would be nice.

Getting a lower will make the ball contact more similar to thiers. Franz gets very low so he can hit from down to up, while hips turn sideways into the ball and lets the arm follow with acelleration. When you stand tall you lowest point of the racket gets behind the ball. That means its hard for you to create upwards motion therefore less arc and less safety. Your shots have high quality when landing, but because the trajectory is very linear its inconsistens.

Technique in my opinion like backswing and ect you can figure out after. Getting lower and using same technique will allow you to make more arc and still apply a lot of spin.

Try exaggerating how deep you go A LOT and gradually get more comfortable by finding a good standing point.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Getting a lower will make the ball contact more similar to thiers. Franz gets very low so he can hit from down to up, while hips turn sideways into the ball and lets the arm follow with acelleration. When you stand tall you lowest point of the racket gets behind the ball. That means its hard for you to create upwards motion therefore less arc and less safety. Your shots have high quality when landing, but because the trajectory is very linear its inconsistens.

Technique in my opinion like backswing and ect you can figure out after. Getting lower and using same technique will allow you to make more arc and still apply a lot of spin.

Try exaggerating how deep you go A LOT and gradually get more comfortable by finding a good standing point.

Yep, standing too upright. Starting point, eyes at the net height and then see where you end up in the rally/drill and note when his shot quality suddenly goes down.

 

[dingyibvs]

Can anyone with a better eye compare my elbow movement with that of franziska?
Is there a side angle of his forehand topspin like in my video 10:19 for example?

I want to understand the forearm part on the Topspin. Not the snapping part but the horizontal movement into the ball. How much are you supposed to show your inside elbow to the table? And also how much do you open the forearm horizontal direction (not talking about the angle between upper and forearm)
I feel like there lies my problem in those weird shots where my elbow gets wobbly.

sometimes the ball seems at my side at the elbow line and my forearm (racket is behind my elbow.)

Here he talks about elbow:

this is another youtuber:

this is me again:

So during the backstroke, I don't know if they forcefully pull their forearm back or not fact is their forearm is behind their elbow showing the inside of their elbow to the table.
During acceleration phase right before contacting the ball, they stop their elbow moving into the ball. Then they let their forearm pass their elbow and when the forearm has passed their elbow they contact the ball and just follow through with the elbow following the forearm in a straight line.

My question is how do you learn the proper sequence? Right now only half of the time I do it right. And I don't know why it works half of the time and the other half of the time it doesn't (keeping the elbow stable)

Also when my elbow gets wobbly (after hitting the ball) atleast on some balls I seem to end up shorter infront of my head (maybe stopping my elbow going forwards too soon and then its starts moving forwards again?)

If anyone who understands it could explain it to me and maybe even how to fix it that would be nice.

Don't forcefully pull your forearm back, just let it relax and drop back. As you start your forward swing with a relaxed elbow joint your forearm will naturally snap back behind the elbow. As for the timing of when to snap your forearm, which as you correctly identified is not done through moving the forearm but stopping the elbow, it's just a matter of practice. With more reps and time and you'll figure it out.

What you need to do is just trust the sequence, you're doing it right, you just need to adjust the timing. It's not which muscle to use, but when to use them at this point.

As for the stance, as others pointed out you could stand a bit lower. IMO though it's probably not necessary. What you can also do is just let your forearm drop a bit more. What's critical here is that your racket starting point is too high, which is why so many of your shots are going into the net.

Having a lower stance allows you to hold the racket a bit farther out from your body while the racket is at the same height, thus increasing power, but that'll be at a cost of less consistency. The farther the racket is from your body, the more power you can generate in your swing. The farthest you can hold it from your body is directly to your right, but your racket will also be at the highest point. The closest you can hold it from your body is just beside your body with your arm right beside you, but that's also the lowest you can hold it. Thus holding it lower means closer to your body, so the only way to make your racket lower without holding it lower relative to your body is by lowering the body itself. If you watch FZD vs. Timo Boll's FH you'll notice that FZD's stance is much lower despite him being shorter than Timo, that's because he hits the ball farther away from his body in pursuit of power.

 

[latej]

Standing wider, this will make you lower. You can go lower, and not stand wider, but that will feel weird. Try going wider, instead. Standing too wide, is also wrong. You can experiment and find the range. Also you can try to make the V angle a bit more between the feet. Again experiment, when the feet are more parallel, and feet more in V shape. What feels right? The more V - it lets the body naturally rotate, the parallel sort of limits the rotation.

During back-swing some player prefer to go with the elbow close to body. It is also shorter and faster. But not just that, it influences the position from which you start the next stroke. You tend to go backwards almost the same path. Some players, e.g. Truls Moregard, do this too. So this is not really bad. But you again try and see/feel the difference.

Finally a point to experiment with is the position of your non-playing hand at the point of contact. Currently, imho, your left hand has not moved enough to the left. It indicates how much the body is "open" during the contact. If the left hand doesn't move enough, the body is "closed", and the feeling is that the arm goes by itself, not driven by rotation. I'm not saying you do it wrong, I'm saying you can experiment and see.

 

[NextLevel]

Standing wider, this will make you lower. You can go lower, and not stand wider, but that will feel weird. Try going wider, instead. Standing too wide, is also wrong. You can experiment and find the range. Also you can try to make the V angle a bit more between the feet. Again experiment, when the feet are more parallel, and feet more in V shape. What feels right? The more V - it lets the body naturally rotate, the parallel sort of limits the rotation.

During back-swing some player prefer to go with the elbow close to body. It is also shorter and faster. But not just that, it influences the position from which you start the next stroke. You tend to go backwards almost the same path. Some players, e.g. Truls Moregard, do this too. So this is not really bad. But you again try and see/feel the difference.

Finally a point the experiment with is the position of your non-playing hand at the point of contact. Currently, imho, your left hand has not moved enough to the left. It indicates how much the body is "open" during the contact. If the left hand doesn't move enough, the body is "closed", and the feeling is that the arm goes by itself, not driven by rotation. I'm not saying you do it wrong, I'm saying you can experiment and see.

Just about nobody i know goes back the same path if they are advanced, it is hard to end up with the racket close to your hip if you do. It is usually a visual illusion or a warmup stroke. The main issue why I think pulling back close to the body is best for amateurs is that it is hard to not activate the core if you do that even lazily, while going backwards can be done by upper arm in isolation.

 

[latej]

Just about nobody i know goes back the same path if they are advanced, it is hard to end up with the racket close to your hip if you do. It is usually a visual illusion or a warmup stroke. The main issue why I think pulling back close to the body is best for amateurs is that it is hard to not activate the core if you do that even lazily, while going backwards can be done by upper arm in isolation.

I think TM is so advanced, that we can only dream about his level, and he doesn't really go elbow close to the body during backswing. He may not go completely the same path back, off course, but that was not my point. There is a range in all things, and let's say ML goes back elbow close to the body and TM goes back elbow not close to the body, relatively comparatively speaking. And both are let's say "god" level. And I'm an amateur who suggests to another amateur, that he can try it, because I think it is better, that's all.

 

[Zezima]

Okey against block/slight topspins balls I thought I need to lift my arm so the height difference between the ball and the blade is not too high like eg a long backspin ball where I automatically come lower.

I dont remember the exact timestamp but there are a few drills I do towards the end with the Fh push and then I get a deep long push back into my bh where I pivot.
I seem to tense up and close my elbow (elbow inside looking at the floor) but I do open up before contact still.

I think my grip might be wrong too since at ball contact I hold the racket handle completely tight and squeeze my hand and not just pointy and thumb finger. I wanna try it out today how it feels to loop with just the fingers and the palm is just covering the handle softly (cue: there is a small bird I dont want to squeeze but just hold)


There is still the elbow problem when you say I am right about stopping with the elbow for the forearm to catch (which naturally happens when starting to accelerate forwards) but maybe I am still opening it forcefully a bit.

I still don't know when the wobbly elbow comes maybe when I chose the angle of racket wrong and then try to correct subconsiously after contacting the ball.

Also franziska and the other video their armpit is more open than mine. Their elbow is in the front and 90° most of the time. My armpit to my forearm is like 65° very rarely 90°.

Summary:
-I will try to rotate my hips more instead before accelerating forwards.
-Use wrist to add spin
-Come more from down to up and more forwards? (Need a lower stance)


Correct?

 

[NextLevel]

Okey against block/slight topspins balls I thought I need to lift my arm so the height difference between the ball and the blade is not too high like eg a long backspin ball where I automatically come lower.

I dont remember the exact timestamp but there are a few drills I do towards the end with the Fh push and then I get a deep long push back into my bh where I pivot.
I seem to tense up and close my elbow (elbow inside looking at the floor) but I do open up before contact still.

I think my grip might be wrong too since at ball contact I hold the racket handle completely tight and squeeze my hand and not just pointy and thumb finger. I wanna try it out today how it feels to loop with just the fingers and the palm is just covering the handle softly (cue: there is a small bird I dont want to squeeze but just hold)


There is still the elbow problem when you say I am right about stopping with the elbow for the forearm to catch (which naturally happens when starting to accelerate forwards) but maybe I am still opening it forcefully a bit.

I still don't know when the wobbly elbow comes maybe when I chose the angle of racket wrong and then try to correct subconsiously after contacting the ball.

Also franziska and the other video their armpit is more open than mine. Their elbow is in the front and 90° most of the time. My armpit to my forearm is like 65° very rarely 90°.

Summary:
-I will try to rotate my hips more instead before accelerating forwards.
-Use wrist to add spin
-Come more from down to up and more forwards? (Need a lower stance)


Correct?

Get the racket to the baxk of your thigh on the backswing as quickly as possible. It will force you to rotate and likely solve some of your problems, that is what I think @latej is trying to tell you.

 

[Zezima]

I don't know its hard to discuss without a specific timestamp.

You can clearly see that I am rotating and using hips. So rotation is not the problem per se unless you talk about a different roation

Get the racket to the baxk of your thigh on the backswing as quickly as possible. It will force you to rotate and likely solve some of your problems, that is what I think @latej is trying to tell you.

I do hit some really good shots but yes when I compare my balls and racket the height difference seems too little. But the german #3 video is not hitting hard either.

Will later watch franziska again and check if he comes more from the bottom with the racket.

The chinese coach opens up his armpit too much imo. But they also come more from down to up. Need to figure out how I can do that without making the ball fly out again prob just need to go more forwards (finishing more in front of the head) to keep the balls arc lower.

 

[Zezima]

I made a "groundbraking" finding today
I literally changed my grip holding the racket with my thumb and pointy finger and very little with my middle finger (the handle)
basically holding the racket as if the handle is a baby bird that I don't want to squeeze.
I did some really nice shots today.

1. I also tried standing lower.
2. So basically just that and the grip - squeezing only the finger at contact and not the handle aswell.

I didn't really focus on any other technical aspect.

I will need to analyze my backstroke etc. But this Session felt really good like really really good. Only filmed the last part. Idk my opponent played with 5 different rackets I think but he always had long pips on his backhand and I think on one or two racket he might have had short pips on his fh I am not so sure and didn't even bother asking lol.

Also tried it out in the match at the end. I think it worked quite well. I just remember hitting some winners with my fh. For the first time I feel like my placement doesn't matter on my fh loop because it has such a high quality that they can't return. Again this training might have been just a fluke. Will try again tomorrow (different player different hall different balls) Kinda excited how it will go from now on.

I will also analyze the other aspects tomorrow once I upload the video. I still seem to do some of the older mistakes. And I don't think I should focus too much on getting even more quality than what I had today and will start focus on control now and try to get the ratio up from 60-70% to 80-90% atleast.

Findings like these motivate me so much and makes me enjoy table tennis even more. I am just a bit sad that this important yearly tournament will be on this saturday. Its so close and I have so much to learn still.
Finally seeing some progress yay!

 

[Zezima]

It will take around 30min to upload. Watch the first 3:30 especially all the way through.

My motion is still not where I want it to be but the quality seems to be there once they land on the table. Even though he knew where I was gonna loop he had no chance. Usually if they block I have slow recovery..

Match was alright the 2nd set was terrible only.

 

[Zezima]

Okey for some reason quality of the shots especialöy in the first 3min is very high.

Then especially in the match I keep going with the old technique mostly. The match still felt very easy mostlikely because of the grip change being more relaxed in the hand now.

I just wonder what I should I do with the backstroke now. I will experiment again this training session otherwise I will just be happy about the quality change atleast even though motionwise I couldnt tranfer anything into matchplay.

Today I will experiment with not going horizontal back with the forearm when starting to accelerate so the elbow starts at the same line as my forearm and when goinf forwards right before contact the forarm will be slightly ahead of my elbow.

MY assumption is that the moment I try to use forearm acceleration my form more often than not breaks a little. It also makes my swingpath start too high so the ball has little error tolerance and barely any curve over the net. If I dont whipe with the forearm I think I can start lower and spin the ball more.

I dont like that this video has no side view. But he seems to not use the whip of his forearm (horizontal movement into the table) the only force forwards is with his hips. Correct me if I am wrong.

But then again other pros use that forearm whip. Ahhh I am getting so confused soo many different ways..

I do have to admit though that I am more than happy witj rhe quality of my topspkns in the first 3mins. But I do use the forearm whip and sometimes it gets shaky at contact. Because the whipping effect sometimes lags and the timing gets difficult at contact. Its not something I actively thinl about but I assume those few edge hits for example that this was the issue

 

[Zezima]

Ok todays session went well. The good blocker from the very first video (almost bald player at the end of the video) couldn't deal with the quality of my fh loops.
Funny cause back then I was playing with a faster blade even and now I produce better TS with the slower blade.

I also seem to have fixed my warmup issue where I needed 30min for my fh to come online. Now it just takes me a few balls and I can topspin multiple times in a row with good quality.

My elbow feels good now. I struggle with adding my wrist into the shots. I cant do it subconsiously yet. Have to actively load my wrist back.

Its also super hard to do serve do this fh motion with the racket at my thighs and use my wrist. Feels like I dont always have the time especially when serving topspin and he flips agressively or plays a ball wide to my fh fast.

I guess I should practise that more when I am in hurry and have to shorten my stroke.

Also when the block comes higher I dont want to start with the racket at my thighs again. Just confuses me with the swingpath sometimes.

Tomorrow I will try to practise more different balls also more match specific since the tournament is on saturday. Add more with serve and more footwork and pause the technique for now.

I Do really like this new grip of mine. I loop more relaxed and cant even feel my arm or what it does since all I am focusing on hitting forwards using the hips and my arm just drags forwards in a line.

1. Keep this grip
2. Dont forget wrist
3. Shorten stroke after the 1st fh TS

When its tournament time I will only think about the wrist if at all (technique wise) it just seems too important and adds safety to my loops.