From what level on does the right "modern" style matter?

[NextLevel]

You can still get by with tricks and good predictions. Just look at Truls from a couple of years ago, he was able to beat everyone except for like the top 3 chinese players without a stable backhand

Remember that he has an unstably bad record vs Jorgic. It's not an accident.

 

[MatsushimaAlc]

Remember that he has an unstably bad record vs Jorgic. It's not an accident.

Of course it's a weakness, but his other strengths were strong enough to propel him into the top10 even back then without a lot of the modern ideas

 

[NextLevel]

Of course it's a weakness, but his other strengths were strong enough to propel him into the top10 even back then without a lot of the modern ideas

That's a bit misleading IMHO (which is why I pointed out the Jorgic issue, so it was clear that he couldn't even win European titles because of this instability issue). His WTTC silver came from a skewed draw. Now his game is more rounded so we will never fully know. My point is that lacking a stable weapon (backhand topspin) means you are more prone to error under pressure. That he has some good results is one piece of evidence. But there is lots of other evidence if one wants a fuller picture. After all, Falck was also a similar beneficiary of a skewed draw.

 

[Dominikk85]

They are lefties and use pips. Neither is accidental to their success.

Why is lefty an advantage for pips penholder?

 

[NextLevel]

Why is lefty an advantage for pips penholder?

Lefty is a relative advantage in racket sports, not just a pips out penholder. It just compounds the advantages of any style (except maybe chopper, but that is debatable as well). The ball comes from unusual angles and serves and returns hit unusual angles. In theory, right handers should have the same advantages playing a left hander but there are fewer left handed opponents, so left handers optimize for right handers, but right handers do not have the same privilege. Look at He Zhi Wen's and Ni Xialan's pendulum long serve and wide serve games - does that work as well if they are right handed?

 

[MatsushimaAlc]

That's a bit misleading IMHO (which is why I pointed out the Jorgic issue, so it was clear that he couldn't even win European titles because of this instability issue). His WTTC silver came from a skewed draw. Now his game is more rounded so we will never fully know. My point is that lacking a stable weapon (backhand topspin) means you are more prone to error under pressure. That he has some good results is one piece of evidence. But there is lots of other evidence if one wants a fuller picture. After all, Falck was also a similar beneficiary of a skewed draw.

The Jorgic issue only came up because he made the finals consecutively. He was beating most of the europeans with twice as much firepower as him in their backhands consistently. My point still stands, if you have glaring weaknesses and some outdated ideas, you can still make top 10 in the world.

Now he's more well rounded and has advanced into the top5, but he only needed these aditional skills for that very final push

 

[NextLevel]

The Jorgic issue only came up because he made the finals consecutively. He was beating most of the europeans with twice as much firepower as him in their backhands consistently. My point still stands, if you have glaring weaknesses and some outdated ideas, you can still make top 10 in the world.

Now he's more well rounded and has advanced into the top5, but he only needed these aditional skills for that very final push

You are now beginning to sound to me like those people who talk about Dima being a former world #1. As in, let's forget all the footnotes, just look at the number. He was a former world #1 so that proves that he could get to world #1 with his style.

The conclusion is that one can get to a high level with relative deficiencies is okay and not even debated, we are not arguing top level here, but how deficiencies make your performance unstable and unreliable, especially in big matches./events. The Jorgic issue is not the only issue that shows Trul's limitations and instability. He has no European singles titles. So how are you beating most Europeans but have *no* big titles? He should have at least one if he was as dominant as you claim. Why would he lose to his teammate Falck in an European Champs?

Moreover, beating most Europeans doesn't make you a top 10 player strength wise. It can give you a top 10 ranking, but I would argue that even then, most of Trul's top 10 ranking came from the WTTC silver, and one can analyze the quality of wins he had in that event and decide how much of it was skill and how much of it was luck. It's easy to forget that he played an injured Boll in the semis and before that, barely got past LJH and Franziska. And without that silver, there is no way he would have been top 10. And that silver was made possible because he was in the half of the draw that had only Zhou Qihao while LGY, LJK, Hugo, Wang, Fan Zhendong etc. were all on the other side.

And yes, it is possible to have glaring weaknesses and still make top 10 in the world. It is just harder to do so and win big titles when everyone is preparing for you. BTW, if Hugo had Truls draw in 2021, he would have had a silver. No doubt in my mind, took an amazing comeback from Liang to eliminate him. But he just wasn't lucky. Truls was. Hugo has short game issues relative to his level. But he was clearly a top 10 player, even if arguably overrated to some.

 

[songdavid98]

The Jorgic issue only came up because he made the finals consecutively. He was beating most of the europeans with twice as much firepower as him in their backhands consistently. My point still stands, if you have glaring weaknesses and some outdated ideas, you can still make top 10 in the world.

Now he's more well rounded and has advanced into the top5, but he only needed these aditional skills for that very final push

Lol what glaring weakness and how to exploit it?

 

[zeio]

I was wondering about this? At the pro level a lot of styles have gone exctinct like Jpen, one sided penholder, defense only with no real counter attack.

And even among two winged shake hand loopers certain styles are getting rarer for example kreanga style far away from table loopers who take big swings or also soft loopers are getting rarer and modern style is more harimoto style close to table power looping with compact strokes.

At lower levels however plenty styles can work as long they are executed well.

At what level does having a "modern style" start to matter and antiquated styles like pips one sided penhold or defense only no counter attack chopper start to become a real disadvantage?

At all levels, whenever a player knows how to exploit AND is capable of taking advantage of the inherent weaknesses of the old-school styles.

It's just that those meeting both qualities are more spread out and hence appear few and far between at the lower levels. As you go up in levels, they become more and more concentrated.

 

[NextLevel]

Lol what glaring weakness and how to exploit it?

It's all relative.

 

[zeio]

Footwork/physical ability is the only way 1 sided penhold is viable today. It hasn't changed.

Right. Look no further than South Korean players that have a tradition of producing upsets handing out 4 defeats in 8 encounters to Felix in 2025.

Both single-wing and double-wing styles command technical and physical abilities. It's just that single-wing directs both into the FH and footwork whereas double-wing splits them across the FH/BH (more) and footwork (less).

 

[sebi]

Talking about modern style and weaknesses if you can´t loop from both sides. Lin shidong current number one has a weaker forehand compared to backhand and every game he loses the opponent is playing mostly to his forehand. Same with Lin Yun Ju his forehand is becoming better and better and against Sora it was deadly, but a year ago it was his weakness and abused. On the other side there is MaLong and everybody tried to avoid his forehand, but he was the goat and just to good.
I think it shows that a modern style with both sides work best even at low lvl. Probably the best two winged player ever is Fan Zehndong or Zang Jike. And you need to be at lot a lot better if you want to only dominate from one wing MaLong/Lin Shidong.

 

[Lando]

That's true for just about every style at the top level. Even the "backhand" players are superb athletes. Viability is not the issue for an Olympic Champion, thriving is The point is not just athleticism, the point is whether the one-sided penhold can withstand the rally demands of the modern game and the fact that pushing is not as prevalent because of the chiquita. The ball is just easier to block now so you are going to win far fewer points on serve or third ball than you did in 2004.

Not really. A SH doesn't need that movement like a one sided penholder does.
No one said SH aren't athletes. They just don't need the athleticism required to play 1 sided penhold.
The only way 1 sided penhold is viable is with good footwork aka RSM and XX (when his bh sucked) OR if you have a weird style no one is used to like Cazuo Matsumoto, who gave Jike/XX issues and even beat Mizutani.

Imagine someone the size of Franziska, Olah or Pucar trying to run around and hit forehands? lol not happening.
1 sided penhold requires more than SH.

 

[NextLevel]

Not really. A SH doesn't need that movement like a one sided penholder does.
No one said SH aren't athletes. They just don't need the athleticism required to play 1 sided penhold.
The only way 1 sided penhold is viable is with good footwork aka RSM and XX (when his bh sucked) OR if you have a weird style no one is used to like Cazuo Matsumoto, who gave Jike/XX issues and even beat Mizutani.

Imagine someone the size of Franziska, Olah or Pucar trying to run around and hit forehands? lol not happening.
1 sided penhold requires more than SH.

We are saying the same thing.

 

[zeio]

Not really. A SH doesn't need that movement like a one sided penholder does.
No one said SH aren't athletes. They just don't need the athleticism required to play 1 sided penhold.
The only way 1 sided penhold is viable is with good footwork aka RSM and XX (when his bh sucked) OR if you have a weird style no one is used to like Cazuo Matsumoto, who gave Jike/XX issues and even beat Mizutani.

Imagine someone the size of Franziska, Olah or Pucar trying to run around and hit forehands? lol not happening.
1 sided penhold requires more than SH.

Li Xiaodong said he ran into a lot of issues when coaching WLQ because of his height and size. They spent a lot of time on getting the footwork right for the 全台正手/full-table-FH style. Years later, he admitted in a Stiga V Table Tennis video that WLQ's broken BH was his fault.