Technique correction - Trying to Fix my FH backstroke + hitting through the sponge

[Zezima]

I have tried to explain this before but you don't believe me. Those are high risk topspins that require perfect timing to execute. No one plays such topspin all the time even professionals. They happen when you time the forward motion and the upward follow through relatively perfectly qith the incoming ball and they won't get the ball on the table all the time and they won't be great when tou are further from the table. Trying to belive you can consistently produce them is IMHO a fool's errand but I can be wrong, keep trying to get them if you think you can time the ball perfectly all the time and can find the right timing read the ball perfectly enough to make it work.

The thing about the 18 year old os that hr is not a world champion. You dont have footage of the match but the truth is that in reality, most players look good when you don't know how to defuse them. A player can look good hitting topspins on balls that are float, or can have a serve strategy that relies upon him getting balls that in a certain range or in certain positions ans you juat dont have the skill level currently to decommissioned them. But as your serve receive game expands, you start realizing that if you just flicked the ball or pushed the ball with sidespin or moved them to the wide forehand, their play would fall apart.

Moreover you unfortunately don't have a higher quality player to play against but it is not a bad idea to train against players who are attacking you hard and you learn to block as close to the table as you can (if i remember you back up a lot and give the opponent time with yoir defense). If you learn to block one powerful shot, then the opponent has to recover and hit two or three and then some od that power is contained.

In any case, table tennis is a very mental game and I have learned while playing it that defining any problem you have in a way that yields no solution will stagnate your game. If your opponent was 2200, then what you are saying is understandable. But if your opponent is 1500 like you, he is a good player, but he has weaknesses, you couldn't find them but they are there, in a few years you might play him again and things you couldn't do then, you might be able to do and see that things were not what you thought when you first played him. He exployed your movement but maybe it was because you couldn't frustrate his anticipation. And you do like to back off the table but from being back you dont use your extra time to increase your quality and variety. More time should mean more spin but you go for more speed which is the first thing the ball will lose when it hits the table.

For me, I have played long enough to know the strengths and weakness of my game and to accept certain things. So when I play an opponent, my goal is to put in enough effort that they have to earn victory. I am looking for where they like the ball, trying to find serve and return that works for me, testing whether they read push vs float etc. Do they move well when pulled wide? If I serve fast and long into the wide backhand, do they have the skill to spin that ball? If they push every time back to my backhand I have an attack. Ig they push long every time, I have an attack. If they serve long where are they waiting for the ball. If they serve long, I back off the able a little give myself time to attack any long ball and challenge them to serve short.

Having a good forehand is cool but it is not table tennis!

The 18y old did it consistently I was going nuts out of 20TS he hit like 18. It was closer to the table the same distance you saw me doing that drill with the grandpa. Maybe even closer than that. He has shorter arms and legs maybe thats why it works better for him.

No he is definetly beatable otherwise he would have won in the A event. but coming really close to a 1800 rated player is insane as a 1490 player. Losing 3 sets in the deuce. After beating a 1650 aswell with the same strategy as against me. I wish I had footage but even if I had a tripod there we played very close to the wall and the tables didnt even have a barrier in between so no way to put it somewhere. Only way was getting someone to film with a phone.
Also feels awkward being the only one filming himself with a tripod in a tournament setting.

I do agree I didn't know how to defuse him since I was already struggeling to get into the controlled half distance game after his serve. He served 90% long forcing me to open up and then wait for a weak drive by me and then clap with his fh. His bh and fh blocks were very stable as I said taking it very early aswell giving me less time and forcing me to move into the balls. Anyway enough said about that game.
I actually have video footage of him when I beat him previous time in league game which was over a year ago. It was 3-2 for me. since then he was injured for a year (wrist) plays only league games same amount as me doesnt train and beats me 3-1..

I agree I didn't make him guess too much about my placement. He seemed to know where I am gonna place the balls. It feels like I have to use up all my energy to play "optimal" but I can't hold that level. Be it concentration be it staying lower and having the attacking mindset. It's just a short burst of energy I can't hold for longer time. Even against the 1650. I was 0-6 behind told myself wtf is this shiet focus. Then I focused was super aggressive and got to 6-6. So I know I can do it but then my energy gets to 0 again. Yes I was already 12h into the tournament but still. This stems from not training hard enough I think. I need to find ways for me to push myself even harder even vs weaker opponents.

And you do like to back off the table but from being back you dont use your extra time to increase your quality and variety.

No because I am just too slow in the brain. I am good at reacting just with the hand (blocks) but not good enough to also play quality active strokes. I have to move - stop - backstroke - calculate the swing path and racket angle - calculate the timing when to hit and just have a non wobbly stroke calculating also how much forwards I can go. And then realize you have no time and just do a shiet stroke anyway. I would prob need a fast multiball session to get used to it. But thats a different issue. *Right now I want to tackle my fh topspin technique and then work to achieve the same result by being forced to move around.

This is why I was asking for hard drills but easy to play with those types of players.
I will also try to use the roboter more even though its annoying to set it up for just 1,5h training session. It's quite boring compared to training with real players. But its also annoying if you cant drill for 4-5 balls with your partner.

I also messaged this other 1700 player who wanted to train with me since 2 months ago. Last time he said early january since he is also looking for a partner. But lets see how he is gonna reply for this week.

For me, I have played long enough to know the strengths and weakness of my game and to accept certain things. So when I play an opponent, my goal is to put in enough effort that they have to earn victory. I am looking for where they like the ball, trying to find serve and return that works for me, testing whether they read push vs float etc. Do they move well when pulled wide? If I serve fast and long into the wide backhand, do they have the skill to spin that ball? If they push every time back to my backhand I have an attack. Ig they push long every time, I have an attack. If they serve long where are they waiting for the ball. If they serve long, I back off the able a little give myself time to attack any long ball and challenge them to serve short.

Having a good forehand is cool but it is not table tennis!

This is what I lack aswell. Even though I absorb some information when playing I am not aware of all those things. It would blow my mind to think and memorize all that during the set and then changing your strategy or abuse something. A coach would come in handy in these cases. I just had never a really useful outside perspective except for them telling me to stay close to the table and some motivating words. Or simple stuff like don't play to his fh keep him at his bh. Noone has a clue tbh. Even when I am the outside perspective it's hard to coach someone because their ability is very limited. Hard to tell someone to loop parallel when they can't do it for example.
When it comes to me I can do different stuff. I am very versatile. If they remind me or give a suggesting like serve this and then push hard to xy I would be glad and be like oh yeah sure I can try that. Right now the only thing I was thinking about was hit the ball in front of me and keep arm and hand relaxed.

Maybe there is a youtube channel that talks about that stuff I can slowly learn from?
Otherwise I think I had started a book 4years ago but I switched to youtube videos and had no time to read a book aswell. Now I could start reading it again. Was it "table tennis for thinkers" or something from timo boll I don't remember need to check it out.

You are right that the fh is not everything. But even I admit to myself I don't use it as much and it's just too slow most of the times.
I want my fh to be my weapon and want to work on it. It's gonna be a long process. But once I get it I will be glad to put these hours to have developed it.

 

[NextLevel]

The 18y old did it consistently I was going nuts out of 20TS he hit like 18. It was closer to the table the same distance you saw me doing that drill with the grandpa. Maybe even closer than that. He has shorter arms and legs maybe thats why it works better for him.

No he is definetly beatable otherwise he would have won in the A event. but coming really close to a 1800 rated player is insane as a 1490 player. Losing 3 sets in the deuce. After beating a 1650 aswell with the same strategy as against me. I wish I had footage but even if I had a tripod there we played very close to the wall and the tables didnt even have a barrier in between so no way to put it somewhere. Only way was getting someone to film with a phone.
Also feels awkward being the only one filming himself with a tripod in a tournament setting.

I do agree I didn't know how to defuse him since I was already struggeling to get into the controlled half distance game after his serve. He served 90% long forcing me to open up and then wait for a weak drive by me and then clap with his fh. His bh and fh blocks were very stable as I said taking it very early aswell giving me less time and forcing me to move into the balls. Anyway enough said about that game.
I actually have video footage of him when I beat him previous time in league game which was over a year ago. It was 3-2 for me. since then he was injured for a year (wrist) plays only league games same amount as me doesnt train and beats me 3-1..

I agree I didn't make him guess too much about my placement. He seemed to know where I am gonna place the balls. It feels like I have to use up all my energy to play "optimal" but I can't hold that level. Be it concentration be it staying lower and having the attacking mindset. It's just a short burst of energy I can't hold for longer time. Even against the 1650. I was 0-6 behind told myself wtf is this shiet focus. Then I focused was super aggressive and got to 6-6. So I know I can do it but then my energy gets to 0 again. Yes I was already 12h into the tournament but still. This stems from not training hard enough I think. I need to find ways for me to push myself even harder even vs weaker opponents.


No because I am just too slow in the brain. I am good at reacting just with the hand (blocks) but not good enough to also play quality active strokes. I have to move - stop - backstroke - calculate the swing path and racket angle - calculate the timing when to hit and just have a non wobbly stroke calculating also how much forwards I can go. And then realize you have no time and just do a shiet stroke anyway. I would prob need a fast multiball session to get used to it. But thats a different issue. *Right now I want to tackle my fh topspin technique and then work to achieve the same result by being forced to move around.

This is why I was asking for hard drills but easy to play with those types of players.
I will also try to use the roboter more even though its annoying to set it up for just 1,5h training session. It's quite boring compared to training with real players. But its also annoying if you cant drill for 4-5 balls with your partner.

I also messaged this other 1700 player who wanted to train with me since 2 months ago. Last time he said early january since he is also looking for a partner. But lets see how he is gonna reply for this week.

This is what I lack aswell. Even though I absorb some information when playing I am not aware of all those things. It would blow my mind to think and memorize all that during the set and then changing your strategy or abuse something. A coach would come in handy in these cases. I just had never a really useful outside perspective except for them telling me to stay close to the table and some motivating words. Or simple stuff like don't play to his fh keep him at his bh. Noone has a clue tbh. Even when I am the outside perspective it's hard to coach someone because their ability is very limited. Hard to tell someone to loop parallel when they can't do it for example.
When it comes to me I can do different stuff. I am very versatile. If they remind me or give a suggesting like serve this and then push hard to xy I would be glad and be like oh yeah sure I can try that. Right now the only thing I was thinking about was hit the ball in front of me and keep arm and hand relaxed.

Maybe there is a youtube channel that talks about that stuff I can slowly learn from?
Otherwise I think I had started a book 4years ago but I switched to youtube videos and had no time to read a book aswell. Now I could start reading it again. Was it "table tennis for thinkers" or something from timo boll I don't remember need to check it out.

You are right that the fh is not everything. But even I admit to myself I don't use it as much and it's just too slow most of the times.
I want my fh to be my weapon and want to work on it. It's gonna be a long process. But once I get it I will be glad to put these hours to have developed it.

If you train with the 1700 player, a lot of this will go away. Just find ways to make him happy and make sure he is getting something out of the training. Make the training about improving his game not yours. Just training with him will give you everything you need even if none of the drills are for you. The problem many lower rated players have when they play better players is that they try to increase the quality rather than asking what the other player needs and then trying to produce that.

On your forehand, i often ask players who has the better forehand between Quadri Aruna and Truls Moregardh. It is not a fair dichotomy but the main point is are you focused on power or your ability to execute a lot of shots to precise locations on the table. The Quadri forehand takes a lot of weight training. The Truls forehand is accessible ro anyone who wants to practice adapting to and placing the ball precisely against a variety of incoming balls. Stop focusing on just getting the Quadri forehand. Complete the skillset and focus on playing topspin vs every kind of ball and getting into position vs every kind of ball. Place targets on the table and see if you can vary the arc, sidespin and placement of your shots. Such drills may not make you Timo Boll but they will expand your appreciation of what is possible in TT.

Part of the reason why TT is hard is that a good forehand is not just about powerless. Footwork and recovery are just as important. Developing both the Quadri and the Truls forehand takes years. The difference for me is that the Quadri forehand tends to take time before it makes a difference in your results because it requires you to hit a power threshold and even after that, you need to be able to generate it on various balls and develop the footwork to support it. A Truls forehand is work, but you can get it starting mostly with your current technique. And the skills will improve as you get more power. But they will win you points more quickly in matches as well.

There is roo much content on YouTube. You have to say what you have already watched. Philip Floritz did two videos with Kiril Gerassimenko recently. Then there are lots of translations of Chinese channels.

 

[NetProphet]

Well vs the 18y you can consider a bad loss he had like 1490 rating basically same rating as me. I lost 1-3 last set 11-13. He was the better player pressuring me hard with his fh. Basically whipping through with lots of topspin even though I knew he was gonna loop to my fh I couldn't even hold the racket and missed the ball completely which rarely ever happens. He also started with a long sidespin to my bh or fh mostly.

My point being he doesn't train and has transferred this skill into match play with 90% consistency. He is doing 0 analyzing with filming himself or watching table tennis videos and I hear from others aswell that he is not training.

Maybe I try to train too textbook like instead of letting go and just care about feedback. All those players I try to beat (1850) have no textbook like fh and bh aswell. And its not like I am gonna play in bundesliga ever.

So now I am a bit inbetween either keep going like this (try to hit with textbook technique) or the other way and just figure out by hitting the balls without caring about the backswing at all. I'll think about this over the weekend because that 18y really changed how I look at training and success. It's not like the opportunities don't rise for me. I get the same balls he gets to topspin hard. But I decide to hit hard maybe 3 out of 10 times and those 3 times maybe only 1 or 2 are straight winners. And the other 7 times 4 times I go slow and controlled with placement and 3 times I miss.

tldr: Why am I even training so hard when someone who doesn't train has achieved what I try to achieve in the last 2 months.

The sure way to misery is to compare yourself to others in this way.
Some people have more natural ability and that's their good luck.
And being younger also helps a lot. But you only know half of his story and I'm sure he's had his struggles too. And quite often youngsters will gloss over the hardships to present their "facebook'' life, look, everything is perfect and effortless for me when that's so often not the case at all.
Another thing for sure is that you are young enough to be a fantastic player in another 3+ yrs, IF you fix your technique and do things properly NOW.
You will regret if you go back and continue with the homemade technique and in all likelihood you'll end up with a shoulder injury from swinging that arm incorrectly.
I say persevere, get the coaching, learn it properly and once your over the initial hump you can ride the ever growing snowball of your improvement and look back at this when you're at 1850+

 

[NetProphet]

Well vs the 18y you can consider a bad loss he had like 1490 rating basically same rating as me. I lost 1-3 last set 11-13. He was the better player pressuring me hard with his fh. Basically whipping through with lots of topspin even though I knew he was gonna loop to my fh I couldn't even hold the racket and missed the ball completely which rarely ever happens. He also started with a long sidespin to my bh or fh mostly.

My point being he doesn't train and has transferred this skill into match play with 90% consistency. He is doing 0 analyzing with filming himself or watching table tennis videos and I hear from others aswell that he is not training.

Maybe I try to train too textbook like instead of letting go and just care about feedback. All those players I try to beat (1850) have no textbook like fh and bh aswell. And its not like I am gonna play in bundesliga ever.

So now I am a bit inbetween either keep going like this (try to hit with textbook technique) or the other way and just figure out by hitting the balls without caring about the backswing at all. I'll think about this over the weekend because that 18y really changed how I look at training and success. It's not like the opportunities don't rise for me. I get the same balls he gets to topspin hard. But I decide to hit hard maybe 3 out of 10 times and those 3 times maybe only 1 or 2 are straight winners. And the other 7 times 4 times I go slow and controlled with placement and 3 times I miss.

tldr: Why am I even training so hard when someone who doesn't train has achieved what I try to achieve in the last 2 months.

One other thought on the kid.
His level was similar to yours right?
Then I have to question your assessment of the match. There's no recording of it so we cant prove anything but I'd bet anything that you have analysed it incorrectly.
1) He must have had weakness that you just didn't find so your loss in this case is less about your technique and level and more about your match play in this instance.
2) if he really was hitting dangerous FH topspins with 90%+ success then it's because you were giving him the same ball time and again, because if you varied the spin, placement, speed, tempo etc he would have made mistakes, otherwise his level is 300 points above you.

My point is that after watching many of your matches in the past, particularly where you were seeking advice for 2nd encounter with same opponent, I am absolutely certain that if you play this kid again a few times you win at least half of them.

And if he doesn't get coaching he will stagnate and you pass him out. All of the really good players I know have had coaching, have proper technique and have tonnes of match savvy.
The ones who wing it on natural ability alone invariably get left behind. Which is why I'm getting coaching!!! 😁

 

[NakiMaki]

He has shorter arms and legs maybe thats why it works better for him.

I think this is too nitpicky, forehand should be able to work for anyone. As long as they have arms The difference between being 160cm, 170cm, 180cm, 190cm, there really isn't as big of a difference in terms of which techniques you can and can't do. You get what you get

 

[jk1980]

At this point i was playing for 1.5 years, had a 10 year gap, played two years before that. video is about a 3 months old. Exercise is, push back hand, open up against back spin, counter spin the block, then spin spin

You could have added that you got 1473 TTR so people can relate kore to where this is coming from

 

[NextLevel]

One other thought on the kid.
His level was similar to yours right?
Then I have to question your assessment of the match. There's no recording of it so we cant prove anything but I'd bet anything that you have analysed it incorrectly.
1) He must have had weakness that you just didn't find so your loss in this case is less about your technique and level and more about your match play in this instance.
2) if he really was hitting dangerous FH topspins with 90%+ success then it's because you were giving him the same ball time and again, because if you varied the spin, placement, speed, tempo etc he would have made mistakes, otherwise his level is 300 points above you.

My point is that after watching many of your matches in the past, particularly where you were seeking advice for 2nd encounter with same opponent, I am absolutely certain that if you play this kid again a few times you win at least half of them.

And if he doesn't get coaching he will stagnate and you pass him out. All of the really good players I know have had coaching, have proper technique and have tonnes of match savvy.
The ones who wing it on natural ability alone invariably get left behind. Which is why I'm getting coaching!!! 😁

Its more likely that the kid had an old rating and was better than Zezima thought. Regaedless though, Zezima got a game. But as you pointed out, Zezima only knows the story that was presented to him without all thr glossy details. Zezima is putting in work yhat often frustrates you if you are not patient enough to see the results.

You could have added that you got 1473 TTR so people can relate kore to where this is coming from

Probably Austrian and German TTR are not exactly the same but even if he was 2000TTR, anyone who learned as an adult and knows how hard it is to improve should be kind. It might be funny to Zezima but I had a similar project to his in 2015/2016. My arthritis placed a limit on the results but while peope make fun of my forehand today, i wonder what they would have said in 2014. The changes were helpful and important. They didn't radically change my playing level but they changed the stability of my results and make it much harder for me to lose to lower rated players and enabled me to beat some players I couldn't beat before. And very often, that is a reasonable result. Unfortunately it is not enough if you are in a certain mindset. But that is why I try to share my experiences so people dont go crazy if it doesn't work out as beautifully as they think it should.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

As a fellow learner, i can relate to my own experience. I changed coach just before Covid. a few months couldn't practice. When we resumed practice, instead of going to the hall next to where i live, we went to practice at a TT school ; with plenty of balls instead of playing with 3 balls. With same amount of time, i played 3x more balls (no need to pickup balls all the time) and i started at last to improve significantly.

My coach decided me to correct my strokes, especially FH because he said my wrong technique would cap my level no matter how much i practice. So we did spend months where he fed just me balls to FH (or BH) one by one, we would also do multiball and some footwork but absolutely no serve/receive / pattern . Finally i corrected some really bad habits, but of course we could not go on like that forever, and my match results of course wouldn't improve because thats not the kind of skill you need to win matches.

Now, my coach is gone and I don't practice specifically FH or BH technique, it doesn't mean im not improving it, actually it has improved so much more since. Its because the overall technique, feeling and footwork is better.

Focusing just on FH in your training is like learning music and learning only how to play in C key. Instead of trying to play C key perfectly, if you learn all the other keys you'll also improve your ability to play in C key at the same time. Because in TT, whether you play a FH or BH you need to move first to the ball, you need to understand the spin, you need to understand where and when you can hit it. Because once you get the feeling to put some quality in the ball with some shot, you understand whats possible to do to the ball even if you can't do it yet with some other shots, and that you need to understand which or all parts of your body to get there.

The reality is that the textbook forehand is just a platonic ideal. Because every ball is different, you'd need thousands or millions of pages for each possible forehand. Hu Heming who used to post here said it all the time. The biggest problem adult learners face is that they try to play the same shot on different balls. you can't play topspin against flat ball the same than against backspin. You can't play the same shot if you're well placed or if you have to move ( a lot) to the ball and take it later than you wish.

From what i see on your videos and what you say, I don't see the need with an obsession with your FH, especially to some very minor details that tbh nobody thinks about. my own current coach who is a (veteran) world champ always tell me not to overthink technique. Muscle memory does a lot of good work.

Your FH is not the reason why you win or lose matches today nor tomorrow. Practicing serve/receive/3rd ball, and to be more consistent, including in the passive game, practicing not to go back far away from the table, thats how you'll get a better player, and believe me, your FH, BH will also get better in the process.

I don't think you need to improve your spin or power on FH. You could get 300 TTR higher with the same FH, only if you're more consistent, with a better footwork to make for small adjustements. IMO you need extra effort on your serve game. I don't see much quality on your serve, and worse, the serves often high and too long, easy to attack, and you're not back in position after serve quick enough.

PS there is no official rating in Japan, but played a few 2000+ players visiting here from US and beat them or gave them all a tough nut to break.

 

[sebi]

As a fellow learner, i can relate to my own experience. I changed coach just before Covid. a few months couldn't practice. When we resumed practice, instead of going to the hall next to where i live, we went to practice at a TT school ; with plenty of balls instead of playing with 3 balls. With same amount of time, i played 3x more balls (no need to pickup balls all the time) and i started at last to improve significantly.

My coach decided me to correct my strokes, especially FH because he said my wrong technique would cap my level no matter how much i practice. So we did spend months where he fed just me balls to FH (or BH) one by one, we would also do multiball and some footwork but absolutely no serve/receive / pattern . Finally i corrected some really bad habits, but of course we could not go on like that forever, and my match results of course wouldn't improve because thats not the kind of skill you need to win matches.

Now, my coach is gone and I don't practice specifically FH or BH technique, it doesn't mean im not improving it, actually it has improved so much more since. Its because the overall technique, feeling and footwork is better.

Focusing just on FH in your training is like learning music and learning only how to play in C key. Instead of trying to play C key perfectly, if you learn all the other keys you'll also improve your ability to play in C key at the same time. Because in TT, whether you play a FH or BH you need to move first to the ball, you need to understand the spin, you need to understand where and when you can hit it. Because once you get the feeling to put some quality in the ball with some shot, you understand whats possible to do to the ball even if you can't do it yet with some other shots, and that you need to understand which or all parts of your body to get there.

The reality is that the textbook forehand is just a platonic ideal. Because every ball is different, you'd need thousands or millions of pages for each possible forehand. Hu Heming who used to post here said it all the time. The biggest problem adult learners face is that they try to play the same shot on different balls. you can't play topspin against flat ball the same than against backspin. You can't play the same shot if you're well placed or if you have to move ( a lot) to the ball and take it later than you wish.

From what i see on your videos and what you say, I don't see the need with an obsession with your FH, especially to some very minor details that tbh nobody thinks about. my own current coach who is a (veteran) world champ always tell me not to overthink technique. Muscle memory does a lot of good work.

Your FH is not the reason why you win or lose matches today nor tomorrow. Practicing serve/receive/3rd ball, and to be more consistent, including in the passive game, practicing not to go back far away from the table, thats how you'll get a better player, and believe me, your FH, BH will also get better in the process.

I don't think you need to improve your spin or power on FH. You could get 300 TTR higher with the same FH, only if you're more consistent, with a better footwork to make for small adjustements. IMO you need extra effort on your serve game. I don't see much quality on your serve, and worse, the serves often high and too long, easy to attack, and you're not back in position after serve quick enough.

PS there is no official rating in Japan, but played a few 2000+ players visiting here from US and beat them or gave them all a tough nut to break.

100% there is a lot about TT not just forehand top spin
But if someone has the basic technique down, they can adjust as needed to the incoming ball, you don't need to learn thousnends of forehand techniques this statement is just not true.
If a player has good basics Overall, short game, serve recive, open up, really, block and so on
Only then his lvl will improve. Major weaknesses leads to losing games.
If the opponent feels like his forehand topspin is his major weakness right now or should be his weapons of choice to generate points its a good idea to train it and get a generell good basic technique.

 

[Zezima]

Again even though I agree on some of your points that other aspects could be improved instead to level up my game that is not why this thread is for.
When I work on my fh I am not doing the same drill for 40min+. I am not sure I feel like some people just want to comment for comments sake without really atleast skimming through the training session videos. I am open to any new drill suggestions as I mentioned earlier.

Maybe I will start making a Road to 1600,1700 etc in the incoming seasons. But that will be a different thread. From what I experienced so far in this league I am already pretty controlled on each stroke and am more versatile than most players in this league (they have standard receive or serves and how they earn their point) But I have no real "wums" in my balls nor placement most of the time. Because with my practise partner I am training mostly control giving them balls where they can easily block which in game happens aswell since I never practise looping to wide fh or wide bh in drills. The sum of my training sessions so far got to me to this level. I also read the very early comments back 4-5 years ago and even in this thread. I am just too soft. Playstyle wise I play the same 4-5 years ago and now. maybe I got +500 Rating more since then but the playstyle is the same. I win my games as long as my opponents don't have a finisher stroke with a successrate higher than 50% or a really good serve game that I can't deal with.

I have club yearly tournament next week. We have the best player who finished 1st in A Event (1850~) and he also won in the seniors tournament the day after. And also 2 more really good players (1800~ and 1680~) the rest is around my level or lower. I actually beat the others except these 3 (the 1680 I never played with or against). Anyway again this is off topic. The week after the season starts. I will be focusing more on my obvious mistakes once I get newer footage in matches.


Here is against the kid back then. I had really bad high serves. Now I can do them consistently just above net height. In the tournament noone really dared to flip them even. So I am quite happy with my serves for now. It doesn't net me straight winners as it used to in the previous league but yeah this is the highest league and since I don't do any deceiving motions it's hard to trick them by just varying the spin and placement. I would say it dropped from 40% winners to 5-10%. Anyway again this was offtopic.

Here an old footage vs him and I have a timestamp on his fh back then. I knew he had a winner fh back then aswell but I guess over the years he just kept playing like that and just naturally got more consistent even without training lately. Same as me I had a passive playstyle back then and it's still kind of passive. That's why I am changing my trainingsession towards aggressive playstyle and having a winner fh aswell. Maybe I am doing too much right now like 80-100% compared to my old 40-50%. Thats debateable if I should lower the power a bit more and go for 60-70% instead.

the fh winner:

In the tournament if I push he opens up slow and spinny I block he smashes. Or I flip and if its good quality forced him to block and I got to attack instead. He always challenged me to have good open ups or that he would smash.
spinny fh:

he can do both techniques.

Same with bh he can open up slow and in the rally he also tries to smash with the bh.

His serve return was mostly with his fh even if I served to his wide (not that wide) bh. very early at the rising stage a fh push. He also varied with half long and long to the wide fh angle.
I started serving reverse pendulum to his fh. But he was actively giving the sidespin with speed back. It wasnt a flip he just drives the ball back with the right racket angle. My recovery after serve was too slow and I got under time scramble because he could place that to my wide fh again and to my elbow right after serving. So I mostly served "slow" And I was then winning my points on my serve atleast. Was more under pressure on his serve since no matter what stroke I decided to go for it was just too slow tempo wise.

Anyway looking at his rating he only got 80points more. Meanwhile I surpassed him and my peak was 1530
Now after the tournament we are mostlikely same rating again.
To get back to the topic. I will continue to work on getting the same forehand as him. And it is clear to me that my game reading skills (not just at blocking) but positioning myself also with the mindset to not just react but to attack the next ball. And maybe get further back after the first ball (my push, or my open up, or after 1 block vs his open up) (BUT STAY at that distance without going back again) and use that time to attack. Right now it feels like no matter what stroke I keep going back and worst are those ones where I go back after I hit a bad rushed ball. And hopefully I can get out of this "cover entire table" and give up attacking opportunites because I don't look to position myself towards the ball where I can hit eg. a FH Topspin and wait for the ball to get into my hitzone instead.
I don't know if this makes sense but in todays training matches I will just give up some part of the table and gamble (eventually it should become high %) and open up the table and just gamble where they gonna hit the ball in a way where I can use my fh topspin.

Again offtopic but I will also try my old main rackets again and see how I play with them now and if there is any change in feeling since its been 1,5+ months.

 

[NetProphet]

As a fellow learner, i can relate to my own experience. I changed coach just before Covid. a few months couldn't practice. When we resumed practice, instead of going to the hall next to where i live, we went to practice at a TT school ; with plenty of balls instead of playing with 3 balls. With same amount of time, i played 3x more balls (no need to pickup balls all the time) and i started at last to improve significantly.

My coach decided me to correct my strokes, especially FH because he said my wrong technique would cap my level no matter how much i practice. So we did spend months where he fed just me balls to FH (or BH) one by one, we would also do multiball and some footwork but absolutely no serve/receive / pattern . Finally i corrected some really bad habits, but of course we could not go on like that forever, and my match results of course wouldn't improve because thats not the kind of skill you need to win matches.

Now, my coach is gone and I don't practice specifically FH or BH technique, it doesn't mean im not improving it, actually it has improved so much more since. Its because the overall technique, feeling and footwork is better.

Focusing just on FH in your training is like learning music and learning only how to play in C key. Instead of trying to play C key perfectly, if you learn all the other keys you'll also improve your ability to play in C key at the same time. Because in TT, whether you play a FH or BH you need to move first to the ball, you need to understand the spin, you need to understand where and when you can hit it. Because once you get the feeling to put some quality in the ball with some shot, you understand whats possible to do to the ball even if you can't do it yet with some other shots, and that you need to understand which or all parts of your body to get there.

The reality is that the textbook forehand is just a platonic ideal. Because every ball is different, you'd need thousands or millions of pages for each possible forehand. Hu Heming who used to post here said it all the time. The biggest problem adult learners face is that they try to play the same shot on different balls. you can't play topspin against flat ball the same than against backspin. You can't play the same shot if you're well placed or if you have to move ( a lot) to the ball and take it later than you wish.

From what i see on your videos and what you say, I don't see the need with an obsession with your FH, especially to some very minor details that tbh nobody thinks about. my own current coach who is a (veteran) world champ always tell me not to overthink technique. Muscle memory does a lot of good work.

Your FH is not the reason why you win or lose matches today nor tomorrow. Practicing serve/receive/3rd ball, and to be more consistent, including in the passive game, practicing not to go back far away from the table, thats how you'll get a better player, and believe me, your FH, BH will also get better in the process.

I don't think you need to improve your spin or power on FH. You could get 300 TTR higher with the same FH, only if you're more consistent, with a better footwork to make for small adjustements. IMO you need extra effort on your serve game. I don't see much quality on your serve, and worse, the serves often high and too long, easy to attack, and you're not back in position after serve quick enough.

PS there is no official rating in Japan, but played a few 2000+ players visiting here from US and beat them or gave them all a tough nut to break.

I wouldn't disagree with much of that but wouldn't you also say that getting the right technique on FH requires it to be targeted and worked on?
I think that's what this is about, learning to get the correct 'from the ground up' form for the FH stroke so one can unlearn the old incorrect arm led way of doing it.
I think after this had been ingrained everything you have written can be added to it but the place where Zezima is now, and the work to do on the FH now seems an unavoidable part of the journey. 🤷

 

[NextLevel]

You can continue to work on your forehand for sure. The main point to remember based on my experience is that if you are focused on technical improvement, forget about your results. Takkyu has the experience and told you the same thing. I have the experience and I have told you the same thing. People think hitting with more power will translate to wins. It usually only makes it easier to beat players you already could beat. Any improvement from technique really comes into your game over years as you will be able to build upon it with more things but not because you will hit much better now (unless the current technique is terrible and the point many of us have made is that it is not). Even when I worked on my technique, there were people saying I didn't even change it, I just played better with it, lol. That's how hard it can get to change how you hit the ball. But you will at least reap the rewards of a confident internal process after the years of work.

Good luck. And I know you will continue to think the practice should give you better results quickly. But like I said, it is far more important for playing level to find coaches and higher level player mentors who you can hit with and practice against.

 

[sebi]

Again even though I agree on some of your points that other aspects could be improved instead to level up my game that is not why this thread is for.
When I work on my fh I am not doing the same drill for 40min+. I am not sure I feel like some people just want to comment for comments sake without really atleast skimming through the training session videos. I am open to any new drill suggestions as I mentioned earlier.

Maybe I will start making a Road to 1600,1700 etc in the incoming seasons. But that will be a different thread. From what I experienced so far in this league I am already pretty controlled on each stroke and am more versatile than most players in this league (they have standard receive or serves and how they earn their point) But I have no real "wums" in my balls nor placement most of the time. Because with my practise partner I am training mostly control giving them balls where they can easily block which in game happens aswell since I never practise looping to wide fh or wide bh in drills. The sum of my training sessions so far got to me to this level. I also read the very early comments back 4-5 years ago and even in this thread. I am just too soft. Playstyle wise I play the same 4-5 years ago and now. maybe I got +500 Rating more since then but the playstyle is the same. I win my games as long as my opponents don't have a finisher stroke with a successrate higher than 50% or a really good serve game that I can't deal with.

I have club yearly tournament next week. We have the best player who finished 1st in A Event (1850~) and he also won in the seniors tournament the day after. And also 2 more really good players (1800~ and 1680~) the rest is around my level or lower. I actually beat the others except these 3 (the 1680 I never played with or against). Anyway again this is off topic. The week after the season starts. I will be focusing more on my obvious mistakes once I get newer footage in matches.


Here is against the kid back then. I had really bad high serves. Now I can do them consistently just above net height. In the tournament noone really dared to flip them even. So I am quite happy with my serves for now. It doesn't net me straight winners as it used to in the previous league but yeah this is the highest league and since I don't do any deceiving motions it's hard to trick them by just varying the spin and placement. I would say it dropped from 40% winners to 5-10%. Anyway again this was offtopic.

Here an old footage vs him and I have a timestamp on his fh back then. I knew he had a winner fh back then aswell but I guess over the years he just kept playing like that and just naturally got more consistent even without training lately. Same as me I had a passive playstyle back then and it's still kind of passive. That's why I am changing my trainingsession towards aggressive playstyle and having a winner fh aswell. Maybe I am doing too much right now like 80-100% compared to my old 40-50%. Thats debateable if I should lower the power a bit more and go for 60-70% instead.

the fh winner:

In the tournament if I push he opens up slow and spinny I block he smashes. Or I flip and if its good quality forced him to block and I got to attack instead. He always challenged me to have good open ups or that he would smash.
spinny fh:

he can do both techniques.

Same with bh he can open up slow and in the rally he also tries to smash with the bh.

His serve return was mostly with his fh even if I served to his wide (not that wide) bh. very early at the rising stage a fh push. He also varied with half long and long to the wide fh angle.
I started serving reverse pendulum to his fh. But he was actively giving the sidespin with speed back. It wasnt a flip he just drives the ball back with the right racket angle. My recovery after serve was too slow and I got under time scramble because he could place that to my wide fh again and to my elbow right after serving. So I mostly served "slow" And I was then winning my points on my serve atleast. Was more under pressure on his serve since no matter what stroke I decided to go for it was just too slow tempo wise.

Anyway looking at his rating he only got 80points more. Meanwhile I surpassed him and my peak was 1530
Now after the tournament we are mostlikely same rating again.
To get back to the topic. I will continue to work on getting the same forehand as him. And it is clear to me that my game reading skills (not just at blocking) but positioning myself also with the mindset to not just react but to attack the next ball. And maybe get further back after the first ball (my push, or my open up, or after 1 block vs his open up) (BUT STAY at that distance without going back again) and use that time to attack. Right now it feels like no matter what stroke I keep going back and worst are those ones where I go back after I hit a bad rushed ball. And hopefully I can get out of this "cover entire table" and give up attacking opportunites because I don't look to position myself towards the ball where I can hit eg. a FH Topspin and wait for the ball to get into my hitzone instead.
I don't know if this makes sense but in todays training matches I will just give up some part of the table and gamble (eventually it should become high %) and open up the table and just gamble where they gonna hit the ball in a way where I can use my fh topspin.

Again offtopic but I will also try my old main rackets again and see how I play with them now and if there is any change in feeling since its been 1,5+ months.

You can do multiball and just try to rip every ball as hard as you can. If you have a playing partner you can do a basket and then switch.

Or play counter and place your teammates in the corner to aim more in the corner

And nextlevl is correct if you only play with weaker players its hard to improve.
Best thing to do would to play with the best player at your club

 

[NextLevel]

I wouldn't disagree with much of that but wouldn't you also say that getting the right technique on FH requires it to be targeted and worked on?
I think that's what this is about, learning to get the correct 'from the ground up' form for the FH stroke so one can unlearn the old incorrect arm led way of doing it.
I think after this had been ingrained everything you have written can be added to it but the place where Zezima is now, and the work to do on the FH now seems an unavoidable part of the journey. 🤷

@Takkyu_wa_inochi said a few important things that it is easy to miss. Hopefully, he will go into details of what he had to do to give @Zezima a template. But the guidance of the coach is probably too important in the process for it to be easily replicated.

 

[Zezima]

You can do multiball and just try to rip every ball as hard as you can. If you have a playing partner you can do a basket and then switch.

Or play counter and place your teammates in the corner to aim more in the corner

And nextlevl is correct if you only play with weaker players its hard to improve.
Best thing to do would to play with the best player at your club

I only got to play with the 2nd best player for 2h once. But I think he enjoys with training number 1 for an hour and let it be. Even when we trained together I told him which drill he wants. He said 1-1 bh and fh. He did 5 balls and said ok I can do it again. Last 45min we did 2x matches. It was too exhausting for me to do 1h drills with footwork. And the number 1 only trains with him from what I see. He also has short pips defense style on his bh. They both dont do system training. 10min fh 10min bh and then a match or two and then they go drink a beer. They are also 40+ and have accomplished alot and one got 3rd the other won the tournament so cant blame them too much. Dont want to bother them to play with me either since I am not pushy.

I was ripping the ball that video with the old man for example. Its getting better but I dont get to use it nowhere near as the 18y who uses it more frequently. It also didnt matter to him what spin the ball had. If you hit that hard the spin on the ball gets overriden I guess and doesnt matter at all.

 

[NetProphet]

You can continue to work on your forehand for sure. The main point to remember based on my experience is that if you are focused on technical improvement, forget about your results.

This is absolutely important to remember.
It's as frustrating as hell but results and form are mutually exclusive at the beginning...

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

This is absolutely important to remember.
It's as frustrating as hell but results and form are mutually exclusive at the beginning...

Worse than that. as you implement changes, you often get confused between your new style and old habits, thus temporarily results can get worse.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

Again even though I agree on some of your points that other aspects could be improved instead to level up my game that is not why this thread is for.
When I work on my fh I am not doing the same drill for 40min+. I am not sure I feel like some people just want to comment for comments sake without really atleast skimming through the training session videos. I am open to any new drill suggestions as I mentioned earlier.

sorry buddy, i believe in capitalism. if something is free, you can't expect expert quality service. If you want real and actionable advice, you'd better spend your time with a paid coach than an online forum

Otherwise, sorry i've spent enough of my time looking at some of your footage to have an opinion and give you free advice based on my own individual experience at -mostly- failing of becoming much better. I'm just trying to save you some time and give you some advice based on my own experience with hundreds of hours spent with coaches. but it seems you're not much listening to anyone here, only looking for confirmation. I wonder if you would listen to a coach as well.

and sorry nope I will not watch all of the 5 or 10 hours of unedited footage that you've posted here. You'd have to pay someone to look at all of it.

You seem to react defensively but i've not conveyed a negative message to you. I did think your FH or BH basic stroke, looked good enough for your level and your next 300 TTR points - which is a compliment - , and that there was no need to overthink your swing or backswing but you should focus on consistency and your serve. And since i've watched a few more minutes of your new videos since my last message, i will add that you have to learn to read spin and receive better too. thats how you will win matches.

But its all up to you to decide what you want to train. The most important thing is to have fun and enjoy your practice and matches. We're not going to be olympic champions anyway.

 

[NextLevel]

I was ripping the ball that video with the old man for example. Its getting better but I dont get to use it nowhere near as the 18y who uses it more frequently. It also didnt matter to him what spin the ball had. If you hit that hard the spin on the ball gets overriden I guess and doesnt matter at all.

The ball that makes someone uncomfortable might not be the one you are producing, even when you think it is. In fact, sometimes, you ball might be exactly the ball the opponent likes lol. Some people are also fitter and stronger than other people, the most important thing is that you gave a good effort, not that you won or lost, regardless of the rating of you and the opponent. Then you use the match to learn something to work on. I suspect though that you are still focusing on the wrong things if you care about results. Anything is okay as long as you enjoy it if you are focusing on enjoyment.

 

[NextLevel]

sorry buddy, i believe in capitalism. if something is free, you can't expect expert quality service. If you want real and actionable advice, you'd better spend your time with a paid coach than an online forum

Otherwise, sorry i've spent enough of my time looking at some of your footage to have an opinion and give you free advice based on my own individual experience at -mostly- failing of becoming much better. I'm just trying to save you some time and give you some advice based on my own experience with hundreds of hours spent with coaches. but it seems you're not much listening to anyone here, only looking for confirmation. I wonder if you would listen to a coach as well.

and sorry nope I will not watch all of the 5 or 10 hours of unedited footage that you've posted here. You'd have to pay someone to look at all of it.

You seem to react defensively but i've not conveyed a negative message to you. I did think your FH or BH basic stroke, looked good enough for your level and your next 300 TTR points - which is a compliment - , and that there was no need to overthink your swing or backswing but you should focus on consistency and your serve. And since i've watched a few more minutes of your new videos since my last message, i will add that you have to learn to read spin and receive better too. thats how you will win matches.

But its your all up to you what you want to train. The most important is to have fun and enjoy your practice and matches. We're not going to be olympic champions anyway.

Even a paid coach won't watch all the footage, they will watch two to three minutes of footage as the issues they will note will be found in almost all of it, we don't magically make our issues go away from point to point. And unless we are using short takes/sessions to change based on video review or taking feedback from someone, most of the time, how you start is exactly how you will finish with respect to the issues.