Technique correction - Trying to Fix my FH backstroke + hitting through the sponge

[Zezima]

This is absolutely important to remember.
It's as frustrating as hell but results and form are mutually exclusive at the beginning...

I don't want to lose to lower rated players. With my playstyle its close to impossible actually. What I do expect is that what I train I somehow transfer it to matchplay against better players. There I don't care if I still lose.

If I train something specific and I can only apply to players that I already beat and play the same crap against better players then I see it not so much beneficial.

I also got the 2nd best player(1800) to train with me once every 2 weeks (better than nothing). If I get the other player(1750) from that different club aswell then there is a high chance I might see some progress in the incoming months. But no reply yet.

sorry buddy, i believe in capitalism. if something is free, you can't expect expert quality service. If you want real and actionable advice, you'd better spend your time with a paid coach than an online forum

Otherwise, sorry i've spent enough of my time looking at some of your footage to have an opinion and give you free advice based on my own individual experience at -mostly- failing of becoming much better. I'm just trying to save you some time and give you some advice based on my own experience with hundreds of hours spent with coaches. but it seems you're not much listening to anyone here, only looking for confirmation. I wonder if you would listen to a coach as well.

and sorry nope I will not watch all of the 5 or 10 hours of unedited footage that you've posted here. You'd have to pay someone to look at all of it.

You seem to react defensively but i've not conveyed a negative message to you. I did think your FH or BH basic stroke, looked good enough for your level and your next 300 TTR points - which is a compliment - , and that there was no need to overthink your swing or backswing but you should focus on consistency and your serve. And since i've watched a few more minutes of your new videos since my last message, i will add that you have to learn to read spin and receive better too. thats how you will win matches.

But its your all up to you what you want to train. The most important is to have fun and enjoy your practice and matches. We're not going to be olympic champions anyway.

I am not expecting expert advise. I want advise on FH TS and you tell me to do some other stroke better.
You also said you have spent "enough" time on watching the videos to have an opinion. Not sure what you mean by enough. Someone who just watches for 20sec can also say it was "enough" to have an opinion. I also don't force you to watch all the footage.

Your entire point was to not waste more time focusing on my fh technique. Thats it you could have leaved it at that. Repeating the same message on every comment doesn't do much. You also make me write a lot of off topic when this thread should be just about the fh. And the only reason I went into details about the 18y is is because I want to achieve that same fh aswell.

And one last thing about the training videos is, that if you skim through you see I do many different drills but with the focus on fh still. I still do receive drills, serve drills, footwork drills etc.

It's also just plain wrong when you say I ignore all the comments here when all I am trying to say is stay on the topic. And as someone who got coached a lot you yourself should know the best that you should focus one thing at a time. Even at FH Topspin you can't focus on every detail like hips, elbow, wrist, legs at it takes time to apply it. And here you keep telling me nothing technique based but work on serve,receive, this that, basically listing everything in table tennis. It's not helpful to me. I hope I got my message across.

One little change about the videos I will make though is that came to my mind.. I will do the drill length at fixed minutes. Till now it was a bit random. Some drills were 8min others shorter like 3min...
Ill plan to do 2minute warmup of that drill without filming. Then set a timer and do a fixed minute amount like 5min.
Also have like 2-3 Main Drill for the day so at the end the video shouldn't be longer than 15min from now on.

I'll also think about doing a short break after 2,5min lets say. Check the footage if possible for half a minute or so and try to do better in the last 2,5min. I could also just add the last 2,5min together but I am afraid that would distort my bad habits that I do at the beginning. I won't add match videos unless I somehow get to play with a better player or maybe once a month or so to see if there is anything that I transfered into matchplay. But the Season starts on 30.1 so we can use those matches to analyze matchplay.

So to sum my focus for the next weeks/months:
- get a winner fh
-- focus on technique and sponge activation. Get a good feel and memorize that feeling. Get consistent without footwork first (first half of training)
-- then try to achieve the same thing with footwork drills.
Transfer into matchplay:
-- take some risks and actively think about placement and where the next ball will go
-- footwork to position myself more sideways instead of standing still in the middle of the table and waiting for a weak ball to come to my fh


Each point is a big project itself. While I do all of these things the 2nd half of the training session will be more footwork oriented and also about serve/receive/push/blocking.

 

[NetProphet]

I don't want to lose to lower rated players.

Ok. But I'm saying you have to prioritise form over results.
Otherwise what happens is you train a few times a week trying to relearn something the proper way and then you go to matches throwing all of that out the window and play the same old way over and over. You'll never perfect the correct technique that way. You have to forget the results and if you win you win.
Golfers have this same issue whenever they reconstruct their swing.

With my playstyle its close to impossible actually.

I don't know what this means ..

What I do expect is that what I train I somehow transfer it to matchplay against better players. There I don't care if I still lose.

Why the separation between 'better players' and 'lower rated players' ?
By making everything subjective in this way (to your own perception and to whats implied by ratings) you are at cross purposes.
You should be happy to lose to a 'worse player' so long as you consistently apply the new techniques (rather than the old ones) and practice them in match situations. The movement, pure automation of it, footwork etc will come later and your results will improve as you will no longer have to think about technique during games.

If I train something specific and I can only apply to players that I already beat and play the same crap against better players then I see it not so much beneficial.

You've been advised by several players that this takes time but you seem to keep overlooking that. 🤷
Its like your pride or ego is getting in your way.
I don't mean to be unkind here, I know exactly the struggle and it's annoying but I do think that is the path and that it has to be accepted.

I also got the 2nd best player(1800) to train with me once every 2 weeks (better than nothing). If I get the other player(1750) from that different club aswell then there is a high chance I might see some progress

Well training V better players will help but you know that if you put 100% emphasis on your technique during this they will hammer you.
If that's ok then losing to lower ranked players should also be ok as you move through this.

Anyway, I'm only writing because I believe it can act be helpful to you. But I'll leave it now because (a) there is no point is us having an argument over it
(b) you seem to have enough advise and
(c) you have enough of your own ideas that anything further seems it will be counterproductive.

Best wishes with it all 👍
Cheers

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

You still don’t get it
That’s why I’m repeating the simple message again

Just put the fucking ball on the table. You currently can’t put 10 in a row even 5 is a struggle. Slow down until you do 10. If you need to think about your elbow to do 10 then think about your elbow if it’s about your hips then think about your hips. If you need to watch the ball , watch the ball. But imo start focusing on your legs and stay relaxed.

I have absolutely no idea what sponge activation means . Still I probably hit better FH than you. So You’re completely overthinking it. Just do FHs. Like a baby learning to walk. And learn in slow motion first .

I’m not giving specific motor advice because I’m not qualified for it and also because I don’t think there is a one-specific problem. But I did mention in other posts what I thought was wrong about it. Just read them again.

===

“Get a winner FH” . That’s wrong you already have it. I saw your video with the old guy with pips or in your matches. You can attack strong a ball and finish a point if you’re being given the occasion. Maybe you think you should be able to attack strong any ball just like Ma Long but that’s not how table tennis is played at our level.
I’ve seen you play loops, drives, at different speeds and levels of spin. You can make the shots already. Most important now for you is to increase percentages.

even with the FH of a player rated 300 above your current rating you’re not going to win that many more matches because of the other parts of your game.

===

When you see the better players good technique, they have played millions of FH since their young age. They didn’t develop it in a few weeks reading FH for dummies. Your technique will get better with training but you must also be pragmatic because we have limited time to practice.

===

We’re here on TTD so if you don’t have a proper coach at your home club may I suggest that you spend a few bucks by clicking on the coaching button at the top of this website and ask Tom and @Dan for feedback about your FH. Please do and share we are curious.
Ofc there are even (ex-)pro players offering online advice but they may be more expensive.

Remember You get what you pay for , and develop what you train for

 

[kindof99]

I think @Takkyu_wa_inochi gave a good point here. You really somehow looked for confirmation not advice here. Your form is not bad, and many people had given correct suggestions to you. But table tennis techniques are somehow weird that you need someone to show you in real life to improve.

And I agreed with @Takkyu_wa_inochi again that your form is the best part of your play in a match so far.

I do admire your resolution to getting better and keeping improving your form. But I think you really need a much better player to show you the right way to do it in real life.

 

[NextLevel]

This is absolutely important to remember.
It's as frustrating as hell but results and form are mutually exclusive at the beginning...

When I worked on my forehand, I didn't play tournaments for at least 4 months. And my situation wasn't special, it is normal for pros who have a result they want to achieve and something they need to change, they do significant special training without taking any match results serious, Some examples from history:

March 27, 2023 | TableTennisCoaching.com

Tip of the Week How to Win the Choice at the Start of a Match. Kanak Jha Suspension It was a shocker when it came out in December that US #1 Kanak Jha was suspended for missing three USADA tests in a twelve-month period. They went to arbitration, and unfortunately, Kanak lost. His suspension is...

www.tabletenniscoaching.com

There are examples where this type of training really paid off. Istvan Jonyer famously spent six months training almost exclusively on his backhand loop, and a year or so later it paid off as he became the 1975 Men’s World Champion and the #1 player in the world for the next few years. Todd Sweeris at my club spent the last year before the 1996 Olympic Trials training mostly on two things – receive and how to beat one particular player that he likely would (and did) play for the final spot on the Olympic Team, and he won the match (mostly on receive) and became an Olympian. On a smaller scale, many years ago when I was stuck as a 1900 hitter, I spent two years focused on developing my forehand loop, and that led to massive improvement and top 20 in the US. (Yes, I could come up with more recent examples, but I’ve always liked these historical examples!)

You still don’t get it
That’s why I’m repeating the simple message again

Just put the fucking ball on the table. You currently can’t put 10 in a row even 5 is a struggle. Slow down until you do 10. If you need to think about your elbow to do 10 then think about your elbow if it’s about your hips then think about your hips. If you need to watch the ball , watch the ball. But imo start focusing on your legs and stay relaxed.

I have absolutely no idea what sponge activation means . Still I probably hit better FH than you. So You’re completely overthinking it. Just do FHs. Like a baby learning to walk. And learn in slow motion first .

I’m not giving specific motor advice because I’m not qualified for it and also because I don’t think there is a one-specific problem. But I did mention in other posts what I thought was wrong about it. Just read them again.

===

“Get a winner FH” . That’s wrong you already have it. I saw your video with the old guy with pips or in your matches. You can attack strong a ball and finish a point if you’re being given the occasion. Maybe you think you should be able to attack strong any ball just like Ma Long but that’s not how table tennis is played at our level.
I’ve seen you play loops, drives, at different speeds and levels of spin. You can make the shots already. Most important now for you is to increase percentages.

even with the FH of a player rated 300 above your current rating you’re not going to win that many more matches because of the other parts of your game.

===

When you see the better players good technique, they have played millions of FH since their young age. They didn’t develop it in a few weeks reading FH for dummies. Your technique will get better with training but you must also be pragmatic because we have limited time to practice.

===

We’re here on TTD so if you don’t have a proper coach at your home club may I suggest that you spend a few bucks by clicking on the coaching button at the top of this website and ask Tom and @Dan for feedback about your FH. Please do and share we are curious.
Ofc there are even (ex-)pro players offering online advice but they may be more expensive.

Remember You get what you pay for , and develop what you train for

Don't get frustrated, the advice is free, you don't to give it as much as he doesn't have to take it. at a certain point, we can let him be if we think he isn't listen. He actually very much is, but I suspect most of us posting on a public forum getting advice from random players would be like him in listening to some of the responses, and to be honest, technical improvement is hard enough that giving advice might not even make much of a difference. Definitely not the best process for either side,

When you are an intelligent adult, it sometimes takes banging your head on the wall and going down some blind alleys to get back on a better path. That's his right as much as anything. It's sometimes hard to separate the learning from the experience that encouraged it.

The one thing is we have see your work over the years as well as a few others, so I know in your case it definitely is coming from a good place, regardless of how @Zezima takes it.

 

[dingyibvs]

I think the fundamental question here is: what is the goal? Is it to improve the FH technique, is it to land more FH shots, or is to play better? None of these things are exactly the same. @Zezima states that the goal is FH technique improvement, but at the same time he's lamenting his lower land rate than the kid who never trains, as well as the general the lack of transfer of FH technique improvements into game results. He's even wondering out loud if he should even continue to work on his FH technique.

This lack of focus IMO is at least partially responsible for some of the tangents this thread goes into. Reps with footwork can make any crappy FH technique consistent at least on the lower level, and serve/receive and 3rd ball practice is the quickest way for most amateurs to improve game results. IMO, the first thing one needs to get right in order to achieve anything difficult in life is to set clear goals. After that you need to persevere at it while avoiding distractions.

 

[Zezima]

"Just put the fucking ball on the table. You currently can’t put 10 in a row even 5 is a struggle."
I did this drill many times and I can do it but with less power ~60-70%. Depending on my blocking partner I can go up to 20+ but usually towards 20 I go harder and either do the error myself or he will miss. But again thats not my goal.

Ok. But I'm saying you have to prioritise form over results.
Otherwise what happens is you train a few times a week trying to relearn something the proper way and then you go to matches throwing all of that out the window and play the same old way over and over. You'll never perfect the correct technique that way. You have to forget the results and if you win you win.
Golfers have this same issue whenever they reconstruct their swing.

I don't know what this means ..

Why the separation between 'better players' and 'lower rated players' ?
By making everything subjective in this way (to your own perception and to whats implied by ratings) you are at cross purposes.
You should be happy to lose to a 'worse player' so long as you consistently apply the new techniques (rather than the old ones) and practice them in match situations. The movement, pure automation of it, footwork etc will come later and your results will improve as you will no longer have to think about technique during games.

You've been advised by several players that this takes time but you seem to keep overlooking that. 🤷
Its like your pride or ego is getting in your way.
I don't mean to be unkind here, I know exactly the struggle and it's annoying but I do think that is the path and that it has to be accepted.

Well training V better players will help but you know that if you put 100% emphasis on your technique during this they will hammer you.
If that's ok then losing to lower ranked players should also be ok as you move through this.

Anyway, I'm only writing because I believe it can act be helpful to you. But I'll leave it now because (a) there is no point is us having an argument over it
(b) you seem to have enough advise and
(c) you have enough of your own ideas that anything further seems it will be counterproductive.

Best wishes with it all 👍
Cheers

No no you misunderstood me. "

I don't know what this means ..

I meant with "With my playstyle its close to impossible actually. " That I can beat them just by playing controlled don't even need to take risks or anything.
2) I don't mind losing to worse players I meant I don't need this new technique to beat the lower rated players and if I end up using old technique and get stuck in this controlled playstyle all these hours put into this new technique will be for nothing. We talk about the same I just framed it bad I guess. So basically the path to think actively and implement this new technique vs better players will be a hard task because you get overwhelmed and it feels like you have no time to loop let alone loop with the new style.

Right now I go atleast 30-40% more on the offense in trainingsmatches even though I don't have to to win against these players. I rather make the point myself than waiting for them to do unforced errors. Thats my mindset atleast. I even hit balls I know it won't mostlikely land on the table just to see what happens.

I think the fundamental question here is: what is the goal? Is it to improve the FH technique, is it to land more FH shots, or is to play better? None of these things are exactly the same. @Zezima states that the goal is FH technique improvement, but at the same time he's lamenting his lower land rate than the kid who never trains, as well as the general the lack of transfer of FH technique improvements into game results. He's even wondering out loud if he should even continue to work on his FH technique.

This lack of focus IMO is at least partially responsible for some of the tangents this thread goes into. Reps with footwork can make any crappy FH technique consistent at least on the lower level, and serve/receive and 3rd ball practice is the quickest way for most amateurs to improve game results. IMO, the first thing one needs to get right in order to achieve anything difficult in life is to set clear goals. After that you need to persevere at it while avoiding distractions.

Thank you. Someone atleast who seems to get it. It's very distracting by the others if they talk about different parts of my game that has nothing to do with my fh technique. I play in the highest county league this season and never in this post I claimed I need to be this rank or finish in top x. I brought up the kid only because he seems to have aquired that skill without training but looking at our old league match from almost 2y ago he already had that I just seem to have forgotten about it. Still not sure how I won back then since this time I was the worse player.

Anyway I don't want to repeat myself about the goal I set them up in my earlier post. And all the noise around will get ignored. And everything else is just distracting me even though those things would net me better short term results.

I had a good session today. I trained completely different today (exercise wise). Played a match in the end vs the ~1450 player who I had lost to last time in the club tournament. And I was surprised it was this onesided. Also tried my W968 with h3n on fh and d09c setup in the very beginning. It was so difficult to play I was surprised how easy the korbel setup is in comparison. I will try again in 3-4months and see if it gets any better. So for now I will stick to my setup.

Will post the video tomorrow. And add my thoughts about the training session.

Good night.

 

[Zezima]

I think @Takkyu_wa_inochi gave a good point here. You really somehow looked for confirmation not advice here. Your form is not bad, and many people had given correct suggestions to you. But table tennis techniques are somehow weird that you need someone to show you in real life to improve.

And I agreed with @Takkyu_wa_inochi again that your form is the best part of your play in a match so far.

I do admire your resolution to getting better and keeping improving your form. But I think you really need a much better player to show you the right way to do it in real life.

how is my form not bad. I go from closed racket and then open it. Get tons of edge hits (lately its been less and mostly happens during warmup only) And if you talk about the last training sessions yes there I am fully thinking about technique but I didn't convert it to matchplay yet. So I have to practise more till its automatic. I can't count how many wins I got just by playing with the surviving mindset in league games. I had games I didn't even want to loop because my fh loop was so weak if they blocked I was doing mistakes and running left and right. Playing in a higher league now exposed that even further. I can't just wait for them to do mistakes I have to put them under pressure with my loops also.

But yes I agree I am working on finding better players to train with.

 

[Dr Evil]

I think your forehand technique is good enough for you to compete at considerably higher level. Of course it could be better, but it's far from your main problem in competition (which is return of serve). In any case, if you want to substantially improve your forehand technique, you have to be willing to lose to people you know you can beat, because any major technique change requires you to play worse before you play better. If you want to use your current technique to play at a higher level, then start playing slower. Slow enough that you can make 50 in row looping against block. In competition, stay balanced, and focus entirely on placement.

 

[TampaBayTableTennis]

I will say that I admire your dedication and focus on improvement, respect your willingness to put yourself out there, and enjoy your combativeness with the feedback process.

Keep at it! (I know you will)

 

[NakiMaki]

I have absolutely no idea what sponge activation means . Still I probably hit better FH than you. So You’re completely overthinking it.

Hmmm. A player not understanding the rubbers function. The tabletennis rubber is made from 2 parts: Topsheet and Sponge. The topsheets purpose is to "grab" the ball. Envelop it and hold it for a split second on impact. Tensor rubbers as the name implies have high tension, which gives it the trampoline effect. The sponges purpose is to apply energy into the ball at the area of contact. Both parts work in unison. On a forehand topspin against topspin, the topsheet gets deformed and grabs the ball, holding it while the sponge acts as the main energy source and applies it at the contact point. With tensor rubbers the topsheet adds additional energy, therefore a softer sponge like on tenergy, rozena or any other tensor rubber can be softer. With chinese style rubbers like Hurricane 3, the topsheet is sticky and without much added tension. The stickiness/tackiness makes the rubber less spin sensitive, by absorbing the rotation of the ball. Though the sponge is much harder therefore it requires more energy to deform it the the fullest. Applying energy to the ball is from racket speed, and the energy transfer is also dictated by the blade of the racket.

Sponge activation is a fully compressed sponge applying the maximum amount of energy from the rubber. Additional energy can of course be added by hitting with extreme amount of force, though the maximum of the rubber is reached. Applying this energy a bit over the ball will result in high topspin, making the ball curve downwards due to the magnusson effect. This is also what people often refer to as safety on topspin. sponge activation can be distinguished by "normal" players without understanding of this, like yourself often like a high pitched cracking sound. Where you have reached the blade making it vibrate. Vibration in the racket is also a part of hand feeling.

Partial sponge activation still achieves spin, just not at the same degree as full compression. Effects are lower arc, a more dull sound on hitting. Less speed aswell.

It is also possible when playing with really hard rubbers like hurricane 3 or D09C, to almost entirely loop with the topsheet. Zezima here is an example. A boosted H3 and also D09C which he have played with have hard sponges and also added tension to the topsheet. Looping softly on hard sponge rubbers will not make them deform much. Therefore less power. Though with a tensioned topsheet, embarking spin on the ball is still possible. Many of his earlier loops are based on this principle. This technique sounds more like a **zip** or something with a very very thin contact.

This can be refered to as a "slow spinny loop". Which in itself is fine, i even like doing it sometimes when opening a ball is falling under the table. But when your entire technique is based on tensioned topsheet with hard rubbers. Then developing hand feeling understanding of power, becomes difficult. When trying to use the topsheet for balls with high spin, like a forehand or heavy sidespins serve, then looping with topsheet can cause slipping. Specifically on topspin then the friction force on the topsheet will be made into forward momentum, therefore making the ball go out of the table often. A common issue here like Zezima had was trying to close the racket angle more, which often leads to more slippage, edge hits and doesn't really improve the quality of the return. The counterintuitive point here is that opening the racket more and applying force into the sponge to neutralize the spin, if blocking the pressing a bit down on the ball with an open racket. When counter topspinning turning the waist into the ball with a more open racket will lead to better control.

I've explained this thoroughly to Zezima, on his setup might not suit him for understanding these concepts. Hence why he switched to korbel, and focues on with a more open racket angle.

I am by no means a saint here, just dropping my knowledge. My level is definently not high, but understanding why and how is always interresting to me.

Not knowing the science behind tabletennis but still being able to "hit a better forehand"
is like a home cook, perhaps a grandmother, that can create a perfect, beloved family recipe through decades of practiced taste and feel without understanding the food science of Maillard reactions, emulsification, or gluten development. But isn't it more fun to know whats going on )))))))))

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

"Just put the fucking ball on the table. You currently can’t put 10 in a row even 5 is a struggle."
I did this drill many times and I can do it but with less power ~60-70%. Depending on my blocking partner I can go up to 20+ but usually towards 20 I go harder and either do the error myself or he will miss. But again thats not my goal.

how is my form not bad. I go from closed racket and then open it. Get tons of edge hits (lately its been less and mostly happens during warmup only)

it can't be one and the other. either you get 20 in a row or you miss with edges before that.
[ps I think you hit many edges because your grip is too closed you should open your wrist ]

If you can reduce power to 60-70% and play 20 in a row then thats exactly the speed you should play in match. and its something you should be happy about and consider it as a good FH already.

btw its good for have a record for motivation("my best in this drill is 30 in a row") but what really matters is the 90 percentile. 90% of the time i put at least 12 in a row. Basically a rule of thumb you divide that number by 3. if you can make 12 shots in a row in a drill you'll make 4 in a row in match in a similar situation (for example FH against block , FH against backspin , random block to FH or BH etc) because the ball will be dirty, there will be more randomness, there is pressure etc...

It's very distracting by the others if they talk about different parts of my game that has nothing to do with my fh technique.
Will post the video tomorrow.

maybe we post about "different part of your games" because 90%+ of the video content here is not about the form of your FH ? There's still 10s of hours of videos here and you want to post more and think people are going to watch it to answer the initial question ?

I used to post a few unedited videos of training years ago, but at least i made the effort to put comments in the description to divide the videos in part, and put comments such like good FH, bad FH with timestamps.

Nowadays its much easier to use editing software, there is help from AI to help non-digital-proficient people like me so I just find it very impolite and a total lack of consideration for others not making the effort to edit and comment videos.

Also, even in the very first post of this thread, in your first videos, you're not showing basic drill of FH. there's serve or receive involved, you make BH, random rallies, or in other videos you show off big FH from 2m from the table. Others you play short ball then opener. That’s a good drill but that’s not the question of FH only as there’s many other layers added

you’re not shown in just one situation but many.

A more serious poster would have posted only 3 minutes with a precise question. As NextLevel said it’s more than enough for a coach like @Dan to see .

=====

I'm not writing anymore for you because you're not listening but to other readers, who might be interested. And anyway you’ve posted your quota of videos and I gave you enough of my time.

if someone is really working on the basic form, then spend your training on boring stuff for months. For me on a coach session it was 90%+
Don't play matches, don't play games, don't practice game patterns.


start near the table with 1 basic FH at slow speed each ball per each ball. then add another one. Then one + one at a slight different placement.
Then go to 3...
Then do the same against backspin. Then against topspin. Then against half long balls.
Then half distance …
Increase frequency as consistency gets better .

Do the same with BH

Then work on FH / BH transition etc

yes it will be boring. Almost nobody wants to do that. but if you've taken bad habits for years, compared to a new kid learning or even a fresh adult learner, you need even many more hours…

 

[dingyibvs]

it can't be one and the other. either you get 20 in a row or you miss with edges before that.
[ps I think you hit many edges because your grip is too closed you should open your wrist ]

If you can reduce power to 60-70% and play 20 in a row then thats exactly the speed you should play in match. and its something you should be happy about and consider it as a good FH already.

btw its good for have a record for motivation("my best in this drill is 30 in a row") but what really matters is the 90 percentile. 90% of the time i put at least 12 in a row. Basically a rule of thumb you divide that number by 3. if you can make 12 shots in a row in a drill you'll make 4 in a row in match in a similar situation (for example FH against block , FH against backspin , random block to FH or BH etc) because the ball will be dirty, there will be more randomness, there is pressure etc...


maybe we post about "different part of your games" because 90%+ of the video content here is not about the form of your FH ? There's still 10s of hours of videos here and you want to post more and think people are going to watch it to answer the initial question ?

I used to post a few unedited videos of training years ago, but at least i made the effort to put comments in the description to divide the videos in part, and put comments such like good FH, bad FH with timestamps.

Nowadays its much easier to use editing software, there is help from AI to help non-digital-proficient people like me so I just find it very impolite and a total lack of consideration for others not making the effort to edit and comment videos.

Also, even in the very first post of this thread, in your first videos, you're not showing basic drill of FH. there's serve or receive involved, you make BH, random rallies, or in other videos you show off big FH from 2m from the table. Others you play short ball then opener. That’s a good drill but that’s not the question of FH only as there’s many other layers added

you’re not shown in just one situation but many.

A more serious poster would have posted only 3 minutes with a precise question. As NextLevel said it’s more than enough for a coach like @Dan to see .

=====

I'm not writing anymore for you because you're not listening but to other readers, who might be interested. And anyway you’ve posted your quota of videos and I gave you enough of my time.

if someone is really working on the basic form, then spend your training on boring stuff for months. For me on a coach session it was 90%+
Don't play matches, don't play games, don't practice game patterns.


start near the table with 1 basic FH at slow speed each ball per each ball. then add another one. Then one + one at a slight different placement.
Then go to 3...
Then do the same against backspin. Then against topspin. Then against half long balls.
Then half distance …
Increase frequency as consistency gets better .

Do the same with BH

Then work on FH / BH transition etc

yes it will be boring. Almost nobody wants to do that. but if you've taken bad habits for years, compared to a new kid learning or even a fresh adult learner, you need even many more hours…

It sure is pretty hard sometimes (all the time?) to decide to train the boring parts instead of just going to the club or to play league, and I'm someone who tends to love training! I think you actually kinda got lucky with COVID!


Most folks here probably don't read Wuxia novels (they're about Kungfu heroes), but I remember one I read where the hero of the story has to learn a new Kungfu technique and then fight a villain within a couple hours. He learned the technique extremely quickly and then spent the rest of the time forgetting it. He was finally ready to fight him when he's forgotten it all. I feel like to really learn a new TT technique it's kinda like that. First you learn every detail and then make sure you execute every shot with every detail in practice, but you won't really execute it in games until you've forgotten all the details, and you perform a shot the right way because that's the only way you know how to do it.

 

[Zezima]

it can't be one and the other. either you get 20 in a row or you miss with edges before that.
[ps I think you hit many edges because your grip is too closed you should open your wrist ]

If you can reduce power to 60-70% and play 20 in a row then thats exactly the speed you should play in match. and its something you should be happy about and consider it as a good FH already.

btw its good for have a record for motivation("my best in this drill is 30 in a row") but what really matters is the 90 percentile. 90% of the time i put at least 12 in a row. Basically a rule of thumb you divide that number by 3. if you can make 12 shots in a row in a drill you'll make 4 in a row in match in a similar situation (for example FH against block , FH against backspin , random block to FH or BH etc) because the ball will be dirty, there will be more randomness, there is pressure etc...


maybe we post about "different part of your games" because 90%+ of the video content here is not about the form of your FH ? There's still 10s of hours of videos here and you want to post more and think people are going to watch it to answer the initial question ?

I used to post a few unedited videos of training years ago, but at least i made the effort to put comments in the description to divide the videos in part, and put comments such like good FH, bad FH with timestamps.

Nowadays its much easier to use editing software, there is help from AI to help non-digital-proficient people like me so I just find it very impolite and a total lack of consideration for others not making the effort to edit and comment videos.

Also, even in the very first post of this thread, in your first videos, you're not showing basic drill of FH. there's serve or receive involved, you make BH, random rallies, or in other videos you show off big FH from 2m from the table. Others you play short ball then opener. That’s a good drill but that’s not the question of FH only as there’s many other layers added

you’re not shown in just one situation but many.

A more serious poster would have posted only 3 minutes with a precise question. As NextLevel said it’s more than enough for a coach like @Dan to see .

=====

I'm not writing anymore for you because you're not listening but to other readers, who might be interested. And anyway you’ve posted your quota of videos and I gave you enough of my time.

if someone is really working on the basic form, then spend your training on boring stuff for months. For me on a coach session it was 90%+
Don't play matches, don't play games, don't practice game patterns.


start near the table with 1 basic FH at slow speed each ball per each ball. then add another one. Then one + one at a slight different placement.
Then go to 3...
Then do the same against backspin. Then against topspin. Then against half long balls.
Then half distance …
Increase frequency as consistency gets better .

Do the same with BH

Then work on FH / BH transition etc

yes it will be boring. Almost nobody wants to do that. but if you've taken bad habits for years, compared to a new kid learning or even a fresh adult learner, you need even many more hours…

You completely missed the entire point of this thread. I keep posting new sessions which start with just basic FH TS (I start with drives but not filming that anymore) and then move to different FH oriented drills. We can agree on that FH has a lot of spectrum and I need to train against different kind of balls. This also helps me with understanding how I need to find my position to the ball and change swing trajectory and adjust power etc. The entire footage is not only for these people here but for me 1st. I am the one watching the most of my videos. But if anyone else sees something he is free to give me feedback. You said yourself you are not qualified to talk about technique and yet you keep posting. I still think your intention is good but you have to understand it's not helpful.

[ps I think you hit many edges because your grip is too closed you should open your wrist ]

This is exactly what I am working on but it takes time. And as far as I remember your only comment about technique so far even though this was something I figured out already. What I don't know yet is why I keep doing it even though when I do shadow practise I seem to do everything the "right" way. In Todays training session I will go slower and try something else out (hitting the ball further away from my body and opening my wrist more actively when accelerating forwards)

 

[Zezima]

Sorry its still uploading in a better quality will take approx 1,5h.
I also took took your feedback and timestamped each different drill in the video.
Focus today was mainly on hitting forwards and "thick" contact nothing else.

Highlight from a Drill:

(one parellel one diagonal)

Match highlights:

https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1726 (Not happy with the placement, but the fact I tried to loop the long backspin and then looped parallel right after)
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1761 (This + the following points, Working with placement and overall parallel loops)
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1236 (Good spinny controlled bh opening)
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1061 Good compact stroke on serve return not fully risking it but enough pace to pressure him. Need to keep this quality against long serves.
My observation:
Good:
- good acceleration into the ball (https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=41)
- hitting forwards (using hips)
- generating lots of topspin still (could be more if I work on those things I listed in "bad")
- good control (feels like I could have looped many many times more if my partner was also more consistent at blocking)

Bad:
- "bad form" I went away from my "goal" form
- I don't open my wrist. I looked at franziskas FH again and he seem to have the same motion as me but when he starts accelerating forwards he actively opens up his wrist.
- Franziska also loops with a more open arm. Which I was doing in earlier training session but seem to not do it at all or very little over 90°. Question here: Does that mean I am hitting the ball too close to my body? I think the ball has to be further to my side for me to be able to loop with a more straight arm. Don't I lose control when hitting the ball further away from the body then? I seem to have a lot of control when the arm is at 90° but I prob miss a lot of extra juice and quality when I don't use that forearm snap. Interesting to hear your thoughts on this one.
Future questions:
- Now that I got this feeling back of how to hit the ball "thick" I can now work on achieving the same result but with a more open wrist when starting to accelerate and hitting the ball more away from the body and to the side so my arm is not locked at 90°

Each day I am also understanding better and seeing the difference and memorizing the difference in terms of form from my stroke compared to pros.
I was also very happy with the quality of my strokes even though I still have lots of room to improve my fh quality.
Watching my match I was also quite aggressive more than I am used to. I do catch myself many many times that I am just wrongly positioned during the rally and end up "driving" the ball back many times with the fh. I do think the Drills I did prior to the matchgame helped me a lot to make the match in the end very easy to win (not that I care about the result of a trainingsmatch) Just saying in terms of peripheral observing my opponents position and also placement of my loops. (I highlighted the very good ones above).

Even though I am working on the technique mainly, I still want to train it as flexible as possible so I can use it in different situations and balls. Whats a FH when I can only pressure on 1 kind of ball instead of 10x+ different balls.

Thanks for watching and helping me improve

 

[vossi39]

Looking at the angle between your upper arm and forearm, there is almost no difference at the beginning of your topspin and the end. This is what I find the most "challenging" topic in your entire motion. It looks totally stiff.

Back swing means opening that angle. Opening the angle to around 170° (yours is more around 110°). During the snapping motion when touching the ball this angle closes to 90° and in the follow through to around 60°. This means a total 110° degrees in motion. Your movement is 110° to roughly 80° which is around 30° of angle. This can not be compensated by wrist or body movement. This is where you loose your tempo, spin and arc.
The sequence is, hip initiates the movement, upper arm finds the ball, forearm/wrist accelerates the ball. You are missing the final forearm/wrist element.

I would focus on this topic during your training.

To give you an idea. When you try to shot a ball to a 10 meter away table. How do you do this? Do you accelerate the ball with your upper arm or do you snap with your forearm and wrist? I guess the later. Why not do the same in top spin?

 

[Zezima]

Looking at the angle between your upper arm and forearm, there is almost no difference at the beginning of your topspin and the end. This is what I find the most "challenging" topic in your entire motion. It looks totally stiff.

Back swing means opening that angle. Opening the angle to around 170° (yours is more around 110°). During the snapping motion when touching the ball this angle closes to 90° and in the follow through to around 60°. This means a total 110° degrees in motion. Your movement is 110° to roughly 80° which is around 30° of angle. This can not be compensated by wrist or body movement. This is where you loose your tempo, spin and arc.
The sequence is, hip initiates the movement, upper arm finds the ball, forearm/wrist accelerates the ball. You are missing the final forearm/wrist element.

I would focus on this topic during your training.

To give you an idea. When you try to shot a ball to a 10 meter away table. How do you do this? Do you accelerate the ball with your upper arm or do you snap with your forearm and wrist? I guess the later. Why not do the same in top spin?

Yes I noted this and wrote it in the post aswell. In the earlier trainingsession I was opening that angle even though the motion still looked jerky to me. Now in the last one I agree its exactly how you describe. Because the focus was purely on contactpoint and not how my backswing looks like.

You seem to have missed my question about this. My guess is it happens because I hit the ball too close to my body i think?

Today I will try to focus on that aspect more and see if my assumption is right. And if its right I am afraid my strokes will get less co sistent since I will be hitting the ball further away from my body but will see.

 

[vossi39]

You seem to have missed my question about this. My guess is it happens because I hit the ball too close to my body i think?

I don't think this is related. The forearm snap is independent of the distance your elbow has from the body. Increasing the distance can improve the overall speed you can achieve (larger radius of swing increases speed at impact time to the ball), but as you already stated and experienced, it comes at the cost of lesser control.

Net net you need a higher speed at ball contact. How you achieve this, is the topic you try to solve. I only pointed out the potential you are currently missing with not using the explosive power of your forearm.

I do have quite a good acceleration with only my forearm and wrist and get faster impacts than you currently show. I most of the time have no body engagement, which is my personal challenge to fix, which at the end also boils down to better footwork and better perception on where the ball is going to land (not getting younger ... )

Side note: Sometimes, when you missed a shot, you do a shadow training motion, kind of practicing the shot. In these moments you are doing it right, as the whole motion is more relaxed. This shows in my opinion, that during rally you are focusing on too many things, which keeps you stiff and tense, loosing the required relaxing state before the shoot to become fast and spiny.

 

[Zezima]

I don't think this is related. The forearm snap is independent of the distance your elbow has from the body. Increasing the distance can improve the overall speed you can achieve (larger radius of swing increases speed at impact time to the ball), but as you already stated and experienced, it comes at the cost of lesser control.

Net net you need a higher speed at ball contact. How you achieve this, is the topic you try to solve. I only pointed out the potential you are currently missing with not using the explosive power of your forearm.

I do have quite a good acceleration with only my forearm and wrist and get faster impacts than you currently show. I most of the time have no body engagement, which is my personal challenge to fix, which at the end also boils down to better footwork and better perception on where the ball is going to land (not getting younger ... )

Side note: Sometimes, when you missed a shot, you do a shadow training motion, kind of practicing the shot. In these moments you are doing it right, as the whole motion is more relaxed. This shows in my opinion, that during rally you are focusing on too many things, which keeps you stiff and tense, loosing the required relaxing state before the shoot to become fast and spiny.

So in yesterdays training session I tried to do it.
I cut the video super short so everyone can watch the full video (its under 3min) I took like 30-40sec of each video.

I feel like without opening the arm(the video previous to this one) I achieved the same "quality" or not?

Maybe you can share your video because even when filming pros and watching them live (watching them live feels faster than on video)

I definitely think I am not 100% efficiently transferring my energy into the ball. But I think it got better. And overall training like this makes me go for these shots in trainingsmatches aswell. I do make more unforced mistakes compared to before 2-3months when I started to work on hitting harder but that's also part of the long term progression.

The question now is do I work more on this

form or like this

The advantage of the above is that I can hit the ball closer to my body and I feel more control.

The advantage of the other one is it's a bit less control and also a bit longer motion. Spin wise I can't really tell the difference but speed wise it looks the same to me.

In both cases I need to keep telling myself to open up my wrist when accelerating forwards more. Thinking about that actively is a bit tough. I guess everyone else figured that out naturally except me .

And you are right when I do the shadowstroke my next strokes become really good. And then I have to adjust for the incoming ball and then the focus is lost a bit. Today I might train at a slower pace with the roboter.

My main goal is basically to get rid of this backstroke. I attached the picture.
I just watched my stroke at 1:54 in slowmo

this one. And if I compare it to ma longs:

it looks like I start my backstroke good. And then depending on the incomings ball speed I try to get "more" swing by opening the distance between my elbow and body BACKWARDS. This is important to note because when accelerating forwards you can open your arms and make a bigger circle motion but the way I do it I fuck up my swingpath at the beginning because I pull my elbow backwards more. And that makes my acceleration slower? jerkier? because when going forwards I am now trying to close the gap I pulled initially back and then I start swinging forwards.

Tell me if I am wrong but I think there lies the problem why my stroke becomes unreliably and is consistent when I don't pull my elbow that far back.

So in short dont let the elbow go that much back but keep it closer to the body and open the elbow(armpit) when the elbow has reached same line as hips.

 

[vossi39]

That the results of your two approaches feels similar is not surprising because it is in my opinion limited by your trainings partner, since you limit yourself to match his capabilities to get repetitions.
AND your are limited also by your recovery. This also something that I experience with my own FH. I could go a lot faster. Good when it is the finish stroke to win the point. Bad when it comes back and my recovery is to slow.

But you have not mentioned, which of two approaches felt better (more natural). I personally think that the second video looks a lot more effortless than the first one and therefore has more potential for the future.
Change the drill and don't focus on many repetitions. My coach an I train, serve open up and then follow through with the winner (by place and/or speed). If you don't want the serve part. Just hit two medium TS and then go all in for the winner and see how consistent you can achieve this with different place (diagonal, mid table and long line).

BTW: Swing path (up and/or forward) needs to be adapted depending on your distance to the table. The closer the more forward, further away the additional up component is needed to clear the net).

Another aspect. For your multi ball training, tell your partner to get lower, when serving the balls. If he want to get top spin into the ball and keep it low over table and net (similar to an active block), he standing way to upright to do this. He needs to be behind the table and hit the ball spin a topspin motion at about net height.