Why amateur players should avoid fast gear and where power really comes from in table tennis.

[victormanriquey]

Hey all,

I'm just new to the forum even though I have been checking information and following Dan and co for a long time, just lurking in the shadows and learning

After playing table tennis now for about 8+ years and being the amateur (beginners, intermediates) coach of our club for around 2 years now (130-140 people approx), this year I decided to start my own table tennis equipment help site with a blog next to it. For a bit of background on myself, I'm spanish but live in the netherlands (wife is a dutch, lang leven orange dus) now for 13 years. I stopped playing regular competition a while ago (nights became too late with family and work life balance) but still play one day tournaments when I can. This month I became doubles champion in the south holland championships in the category E (roughly 1600-1700 TTR as germans friends told me). SO i'm just a decent intermediate player with a healthy obssesion for material and I love teaching our amateurs and seeing them improve.

Anyways, as I said before, this year finally I decided to start writting stuff about TT (best sport in the world ofc) and this week I wrote about a topic that I feel strongly about: fast gear and people that are still developing their technique, aka, us the amateurs. I post it on reddit and it became a bit of a big discussion that I have really enjoyed so far, so many different insights and people coming together to a topic that in my eyes benefits the brands but hurts the sport as a whole, and for sure make people lose a lot of money and time instead of focusing on technique. Even though I offer equipment advice, my first advice is and will always be, focus on technique.

In any case, since I have got a lot of value from this forum before, I thought to bring something back and post it here too. Perhaps nobody reads it but hey, if some people start reconsidering their choices and focusing more on technique rather than on EJ-ing their way up, then I'm happy.

So here it is, happy as always to get some good backlash, I think it always enriches the conversation. And hope you friends like it. I will stick around and collaborate more from now on, thanks for making this great forum and for all the videos, always good fun!!! ❤️

Link to post: https://www.tabletennisequipmenthelp.com/blog/why-amateur-players-should-avoid-fast-gear

PS. My gear is moderately fast, I know, but I have played with it for a long time and I can control it all good. Before I ate all my dogfood and went from Stiga AC with 729fx to H3 unboosted both sides, then 1 layer booster same blade, then violin same rubbers, the acoustic same rubbers, then my current gear. But all those changes were made with good awareness why and when the moment was ripe. In case some of you were wondering

 

[andymagata]

This cannot be said enough times! Great info, thanks.

Talking bout myself, I started 14 months ago. Yes - it has taking me this amount of time to understand what you are talking about, emotionally. It is very hard for a beginner to listen to the voice of reason AND experienced players that has been there already when you have a salary, a wish to level up fast, the need to reward yourself, access to cheapish equipment and are reading posts from players with 10, 20 or 40 years of experience.

 

[MOJOJOJO-74]

This cannot be said enough times! Great info, thanks.

Talking bout myself, I started 14 months ago. Yes - it has taking me this amount of time to understand what you are talking about, emotionally. It is very hard for a beginner to listen to the voice of reason AND experienced players that has been there already when you have a salary, a wish to level up fast, the need to reward yourself, access to cheapish equipment and are reading posts from players with 10, 20 or 40 years of experience.

Honestly this was me when I started getting more into table tennis and looking back it definitely annoys me because I tried to do all this research rather than ask my experience clubmates/friends what would be good options since they have years and decades over me. My first official table tennis setup was Stiga Intensity NCT CPen with Victas Triple Double Extra and Xiom Vega Pro and the Victas rubber was so damn hard for my beginner level at that time and now if I were to use it, it would be much easier to handle. Now I have DHS N301 CPen with H3 Blue Sponge and Hurricane 8-80 (until my 8-20 gets here since they gave me wrong rubber) and I feel really good with this setup. Thank you for the detailed and helpful information @victormanriquey

 

[Dr Evil]

Good content. I think the "hit then brush" metaphor can be useful, but it's also useful (especially with adult learners who like to understand why they're being told to do something) to acknowledge that it's not reflective of physical reality. Contact time between ball and rubber is on the order of 1 millisecond (not a few milliseconds), and given the limitations of nerve conduction velocity and brain computation time it's not physically possible to divide contact into two separate consciously controlled components. In fact, hitting and brushing are not even two distinct ways of contacting the ball, just labels on a continuum of racket angle and swing plane. I prefer a coach to tell me I'm "brushing too much." Others might prefer the "hit then brush" instruction. Whichever works better for you is better. Both mean open the contact angle and/or flatten the swing plane.

 

[Double_Trouble]

Good thread.
Yes, I believe many of us bought gear that that we may utilize properly down the road with continuous training, but not in the first couple of years. I guess there are talents out there that can develop very fast but from what I see, way too many people with material way beyond their abilities. I am guilty too and bought Btfly Innerfirce ALC, and still donˋt see myself using it.
Donˋt get me wrong, everyone can and should spend their money any way they feel but I agree with your premise.

 

[WingTT]

In my opinion, fast or slow gear is a matter of personal preference, not whether someone is a beginner or amateur. What is considered fast back in the day such as ALC blades is not "too fast" anymore in the context of the plastic ball and classic 5 ply allwoods in my opinion is just way too slow now.

Many people confuse beginners who are still developing techniques with people who do not have the talent to be able to learn strokes and understand how to adjust the stroke angle and power to fit the incoming ball. A total beginner could start with a Viscaria with D09C FH and Zyre 03 BH if they like the feel and are the type of person who can imitate body movement and understand how to adjust the angle and power of the stroke to get the ball over with enough spin to get the ball down on the table. Those who insist on beginners using "slow" gear are just projecting their own limitations and preferences on others.

 

[victormanriquey]

This cannot be said enough times! Great info, thanks.

Talking bout myself, I started 14 months ago. Yes - it has taking me this amount of time to understand what you are talking about, emotionally. It is very hard for a beginner to listen to the voice of reason AND experienced players that has been there already when you have a salary, a wish to level up fast, the need to reward yourself, access to cheapish equipment and are reading posts from players with 10, 20 or 40 years of experience.

Thanks! Yes it is, there is a part of not really getting it, another part of your own ego telling you 'I can handle this' (we have all been there), then plenty of people who want you to buy expensive stuff (shops, brands, influencers, etc) and when you have time and money, you want the shiny stuff haha

i think you described the psychology and emotion of it exactly as it is

 

[victormanriquey]

Honestly this was me when I started getting more into table tennis and looking back it definitely annoys me because I tried to do all this research rather than ask my experience clubmates/friends what would be good options since they have years and decades over me. My first official table tennis setup was Stiga Intensity NCT CPen with Victas Triple Double Extra and Xiom Vega Pro and the Victas rubber was so damn hard for my beginner level at that time and now if I were to use it, it would be much easier to handle. Now I have DHS N301 CPen with H3 Blue Sponge and Hurricane 8-80 (until my 8-20 gets here since they gave me wrong rubber) and I feel really good with this setup. Thank you for the detailed and helpful information @victormanriquey

I'm glad you enjoyed the content, and that you were also able of recognising, hey, this is not the right setup now, maybe later Your new setup sounds good, still fast with that koto 301 and hurricane if boosted a lot but overall should be much more controllable (and I dare saying, spinny)

 

[victormanriquey]

Good content. I think the "hit then brush" metaphor can be useful, but it's also useful (especially with adult learners who like to understand why they're being told to do something) to acknowledge that it's not reflective of physical reality. Contact time between ball and rubber is on the order of 1 millisecond (not a few milliseconds), and given the limitations of nerve conduction velocity and brain computation time it's not physically possible to divide contact into two separate consciously controlled components. In fact, hitting and brushing are not even two distinct ways of contacting the ball, just labels on a continuum of racket angle and swing plane. I prefer a coach to tell me I'm "brushing too much." Others might prefer the "hit then brush" instruction. Whichever works better for you is better. Both mean open the contact angle and/or flatten the swing plane.

Yes you are absolutely correct from a physics standpoint, and as you say, it's the metaphor that helps people. I have found that the metaphor works because when I teach this, I first show them the feeling of hitting 100, like a good slap in the face so they open the racket angle. They all know brushing anyways, so then they get a new feeling, and then I tell them to use their wrist like a fish tail for hitting, but instead of full back and forth, back and forth with a bit of brushing/upwards motion. They all get it quickly and in 1h they are all hit-brushing, or in other words as you say, opening their angle while still brushing for a better ratio

 

[victormanriquey]

Good thread.
Yes, I believe many of us bought gear that that we may utilize properly down the road with continuous training, but not in the first couple of years. I guess there are talents out there that can develop very fast but from what I see, way too many people with material way beyond their abilities. I am guilty too and bought Btfly Innerfirce ALC, and still donˋt see myself using it.
Donˋt get me wrong, everyone can and should spend their money any way they feel but I agree with your premise.

Yes I also agree, this is also what the person below mentioned, and indeed, I'm all up for experimentation, and having fun spending money and time trying things. I think is only when people start being frustrated, blaming equipment and being salty that we should realise there is a problem there

 

[victormanriquey]

In my opinion, fast or slow gear is a matter of personal preference, not whether someone is a beginner or amateur. What is considered fast back in the day such as ALC blades is not "too fast" anymore in the context of the plastic ball and classic 5 ply allwoods in my opinion is just way too slow now.

Many people confuse beginners who are still developing techniques with people who do not have the talent to be able to learn strokes and understand how to adjust the stroke angle and power to fit the incoming ball. A total beginner could start with a Viscaria with D09C FH and Zyre 03 BH if they like the feel and are the type of person who can imitate body movement and understand how to adjust the angle and power of the stroke to get the ball over with enough spin to get the ball down on the table. Those who insist on beginners using "slow" gear are just projecting their own limitations and preferences on others.

I think this is a valid opinion and I enjoy reading things that go into a different direction. I think the truth is never black or white and there is some grey space in between

For example, young talents with consistent and long term coaching can use much faster and modern equipment from the get go. They learn the modern ways straight away and since they have coaching and enough training, it just grows on them.

It also happens sometimes that more senior members, also in our club this happens, need a bit more speed as they cannot use their bodies as well as before. There, fast equipment that helps them, is also a good idea, specially people whose condition and abilities might be on the decrease.

I think the important part is to understand the principles and then break the rules whenever needed or where it makes sense. Learning to drive on a F1 car is not what I would advise as a principle, but in some cases, it definitely can make sense.

Also, preference and feeling matters for sure. As long as there is awareness of what you are doing, then you can adjust, problem is most people don't understand the principles and their gear immediately.

 

[NetProphet]

A total beginner could start with a Viscaria with D09C FH and Zyre 03 BH if they like the feel and are the type of person who can imitate body movement and understand how to adjust the angle and power of the stroke to get the ball over with enough spin to get the ball down on the table.

I would absolutely disagree with the point of even saying this, you're talking about Unicorn here.
'if they like the feel' (what beginner is going to like the feel of this? There is not feel through Viscaria and D09c. You're basically playing devils advocate just for the sake of it here.
And are the type of person who can imitate body movement'.
It's not about imitation. It's about developing the feeling, synchronisation and coordination through your legs, hips and core to arm and it is not easy. The absolute first time beginner you describe doesn't exist and if anyone tries to do it properly from the ground up they need all the help they can get from what's in their hand.

Those who insist on beginners using "slow" gear are just projecting their own limitations and preferences on others.

Not just that. It's possible they are but that's not the only possibility here.
It is also a time and again proven good way to help anyone who is a bit serious about learning the sport.
What you're suggesting is the 1% outlier.
I get that someone can start with middle of the road (not absolutely slow) equipment and do fine but a $400 setup like Viscaria, Zyre and 09c?
No, this is a ridiculous suggestion for 99% of absolute beginners.
You say it's about personal preference but if the preference is that of someone playing only two weeks and just likes expensive stuff then it means nothing. Also if it's someone playing a year but not really trying to learn proper technique then it also means nothing, just a 'personal preference'.
What matters, in the context of the article, is what works most of the time and here it's really hard to argue against certain equipment for a certain standard of player. Even coaches have told me it's harder to coach people with equipment they struggle to control. There's not enough margin of error for successful shot making... 🤷

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I would absolutely disagree with the point of even saying this, you're talking about Unicorn here.
'if they like the feel' (what beginner is going to like the feel of this? There is not feel through Viscaria and D09c. You're basically playing devils advocate just for the sake of it here.
And are the type of person who can imitate body movement'.
It's not about imitation. It's about developing the feeling, synchronisation and coordination through your legs, hips and core to arm and it is not easy. The absolute first time beginner you describe doesn't exist and if anyone tries to do it properly from the ground up they need all the help they can get from what's in their hand.

No they're not.
It is the absolute time and again proven best way to help anyone who is a bit serious about learning the sport.
What you're suggesting is the 1% outlier where someone starts with middle of the road equipment and does fine but a $400 setup lioe Viscaria, Zyre and 09c l, no, this is just ridiculous.

Mostly depends on if the hypothetical beginner is working with a good coach or not. If they are, starting off with reactive blades and rubbers isn't as devastating as most people insist it is.

There's a post a while back that was an old listing of the equipment of the ICC junior program's students who were at the early stages of their training, both in terms of age and level. Almost all of them were using stiff Stiga blades with Calibra rubber which would have been laughed at by most people on the forums. However, from that entire program, the students ended up USATT2000+ at worst, and as 2700+ Olympians or national team members such as Nikhil Kumar and Darryl Tsao, at best. Many such cases like this where it doesn't really matter if they're getting proper coaching from early on, it isn't only unicorns.

 

[passifid]

Mostly depends on if the hypothetical beginner is working with a good coach or not. If they are, starting off with reactive blades and rubbers isn't as devastating as most people insist it is.

There's a post a while back that was an old listing of the equipment of the ICC junior program's students who were at the early stages of their training, both in terms of age and level. Almost all of them were using stiff Stiga blades with Calibra rubber which would have been laughed at by most people on the forums. However, from that entire program, the students ended up USATT2000+ at worst, and as 2700+ Olympians or national team members such as Nikhil Kumar and Darryl Tsao, at best. Many such cases like this where it doesn't really matter if they're getting proper coaching from early on, it isn't only unicorns.

I agree with you a bit but this thread is clearly not pointed at people who are in olympic programmes. Its more for dave down the leisure club who has turned up to a real club last month. and dave should probably use Rhyzen CMD and some moderate blade for a year or so.

 

[Infernal]

Yes you are absolutely correct from a physics standpoint, and as you say, it's the metaphor that helps people.

I do not think it helps people. A lot of people would get confused by it, and some will play the correct stroke by accident.

It is always better to explain things correctly instead of perpetuating false statements and passing them onto the next generation of players.

 

[NetProphet]

Mostly depends on if the hypothetical beginner is working with a good coach or not. If they are, starting off with reactive blades and rubbers isn't as devastating as most people insist it is.

There's a post a while back that was an old listing of the equipment of the ICC junior program's students who were at the early stages of their training, both in terms of age and level. Almost all of them were using stiff Stiga blades with Calibra rubber which would have been laughed at by most people on the forums. However, from that entire program, the students ended up USATT2000+ at worst, and as 2700+ Olympians or national team members such as Nikhil Kumar and Darryl Tsao, at best.

Apples and Oranges man.
I'm not sure if you read the OPs blog post (did you?) or just my post and are applying what I wrote to particular instance you know of.

That would be fair enough except the blog post is (as far as I can tell) referring to regular uncoached beginners who have kind of lost their way a little and refers to the pursuit of real proper technique and it makes a very good point as to how their equipment may not be helping.

Anyone getting the calibre of coach you refer to over a timeframe and level dedicated to breeding 2700+ players can start with whatever the coach prescribes.
There's always a few who want to say 'oh but this one guy or that one other guy' etc etc.
Those are exceptions.

Anyone is free to recommend Viscaria and exotic Butterfly stuff if they want but nobody will ever convince me that is prudent.
Unless of course your Glenn Östh and gonna spend the next 10 years with them because they have insane talent. Then yeah, go for it.
But even Wing TT describes someone figuring it out for themselves. You really think it's advisable?

Cos I reckon the two names you dropped belong exactly in the Unicorn category.
Coached unicorns.
Someone doing it themselves, starting with Viscaria & Zyreand reaching that level is a Unicorn with wings!

Many such cases like this where it doesn't really matter if they're getting proper coaching from early on, it isn't only unicorns.

What does this bit mean?
You mention coaching cases above. Are you saying you've witnessed regular uncoached folk succeed on the same route?
I get the 'theres no one fits all' denomination here and not everyone goes in the same box but I feel were getting far away from the point of the article.
You seem to have lots of experience on coaching, what do you start players with, generally?

 

[joshmak10]

You can use an all wood blade and Sriver if you want. You can use Primorac Carbon and Z03 if you want too. Let people make their own decisions, everyone is different.

Honestly, I would always just recommend the more modern equipment like a Viscaria H3 and a Dignics rubber so that they can get used to it and never have to change again, because lets be real, you will end up changing that all wood blade and Sriver eventually after you grow out of it. of course, it'll be even better with a coach training you with Vis H3 and Dignics, but many people, including myself, dont get coached and use such setups.

 

[RefereeNumber2]

The biggest equipment mistake amateurs can make is thinking it matters way more than it does. It's probably not that common a mistake overall, but it does appear very prevalent among the subset of amateurs who spend a lot of time on online forums like this one -- to the point people start analyzing their own game or identifying themselves (in the table tennis context) primarily in terms of the equipment they use.

My best equipment advice for beginners/learning players: If you're playing like shit and you're not sure why, the answer is almost certainly not that your racket is too fast or too slow. And constantly worrying whether your racket is too fast or too slow is only going to distract your attention from the things that actually are making you play poorly. Just pick some mainstream blade and rubbers and forget about equipment for a while. If you've already been playing with something, just stick with it. Unless you make highly unusual choices (e.g., pips or dead/super-soft rubbers), equipment is not going to make a first-order difference in how you play. Once you get to the point where you can diagnose for yourself -- whenever you find yourself playing like shit -- why you're playing like shit, then you'll be able to appreciate the difference that equipment can make.

 

[NetProphet]

The biggest equipment mistake amateurs can make is thinking it matters way more than it does.

There is a difference between blaming your equipment for how you play and trying to buy the best equipment to help you learn.

And there's a difference between 'playing like shit' and struggling to learn correct techniques (or struggling to land the ball when trying correct technique).
I've seen enough instances where the Viscaria with T05 or D05 has been replaced with a wood blade and a Rakza 7 and presto, with that big all body motion stroke they're trying to learn, the ball lands far more often.

Yes, self diagnosis and blaming equipment in the manner you said is silly but that's not really what anyone has been saying up to now.

 

[NextLevel]

Good content. I think the "hit then brush" metaphor can be useful, but it's also useful (especially with adult learners who like to understand why they're being told to do something) to acknowledge that it's not reflective of physical reality. Contact time between ball and rubber is on the order of 1 millisecond (not a few milliseconds), and given the limitations of nerve conduction velocity and brain computation time it's not physically possible to divide contact into two separate consciously controlled components. In fact, hitting and brushing are not even two distinct ways of contacting the ball, just labels on a continuum of racket angle and swing plane. I prefer a coach to tell me I'm "brushing too much." Others might prefer the "hit then brush" instruction. Whichever works better for you is better. Both mean open the contact angle and/or flatten the swing plane.

Language will always have limitations, we just take its effectiveness for granted because of how well it works, but forget how limited it can be until it fails to convey what you really mean.

The other thing that is not discussed is that there are high level players with very brush technique, most notoriously Timo Boll who while having the ability to hit through the ball, brushed a lot simply because it gave extremely high reward with the celluloid balls. But all lf that seems to be gone nowadays as there is only one answer and how the plastic ball affects the issue is not often discussed.

I agree with you a bit but this thread is clearly not pointed at people who are in olympic programmes. Its more for dave down the leisure club who has turned up to a real club last month. and dave should probably use Rhyzen CMD and some moderate blade for a year or so.

But is the blade price/speed the issue? My theory is that because of the importance of feedback to learn, and because most slower blades have lower vibrational frequencies, they promote significant feeling that one can use to adjust their shot and require quite a bit of work to be stiff and give fast rebound. Maybe this can be a good thing in thr absence of coaching or for a player who lacks the feeling to adjust to stiff blade feedback. But as someone who used slow all wood blades for a long time, they put pressure on aspects of your technique as well. There is no free lunch. Ans for some learners, slower blades might have too much feedback.

In the end, the key is always adaptation. I think it is not a bad idea to recommend someone slow down the setup if they play with their current setup as if it is a brick. Even having a slower blade for some practice is not a terrible idea. But the idea that someone cannot get good as a beginner using a fast setup is false, especially with this plastic ball. The issue is that people are too focused on immediate results vs what a player can adapt to. If they focused on the latter, and range trained a lot of shots to develop better grip pressure and feeling, they would be surprised by what people can play with vs what they currently play with. Though just like wood came from a living thing, players are living and adapt too and no one has a scientific way of showing what blade is optimal for you.

Thankfully we have spinsight. I used an Allwood 7ply with Zyre 04 vs an SZLC with Zyre 03. Which could I generate more spin and more speed with vs block on repeats strokes? The answer might surprise you lol.