Match tactics

[NextLevel]

This part right here. As a solo player who got up to 1500RC in a club where there is only 1-2 1200-1300 and rest below 1000. I had to fight and prove myself a lot. So making mistakes was always hard for me. Don't mix it up with loosing because I lost a lot of games in the beginning. I kept surviving and suviving and got to where I am right now playing in the highest league in an environment where my main club has only an average team 6th/10 in the league below this. Environment plays a big role. Being able to play many many matches in a year aswell. For example vs this player I won't be able to play in a match till october or november. Thats around 8-9 months. So there is a lot of pressure knowing that your next chance to beat him is in almost a year..

now you talked about a good point with the kid. I def have the ability to use the rubber from the strength point of view. And if I am relaxed even better. But the reality is its different in match play. I don't have that mindset in the match I am too scared or break my form by wanting too much. I don't say the rubber is bad or that I cant use it. I say it doesn't help with my nervousnes and is not so unforgiving.

You have done well for yourself and while no one can give you the credit looking in, you should always remember that. Even professionals go through the same problem you have. Think about someone like Kanak Jha who had to move to Germany or Quadri who eventually move to Portugal or to think about an older time, William Henzell who moved to Europe at 15 from Australia to pursue his dreams in TT. They dominated their homes, but it wasn't enough, to get better, they had to move to a new place and get new challenges. Just how life works in TT, the lessons are usually the same, they just come in different levels and details. But Henzell often talked about the risks he needed to take to do better at the Olympics despite being comfortably at the top of Australia. He had a not-so-great forehand but a terrific backhand (this was the celluloid ball), so he spent a lot of time at the Schlager Academy even when he usually was supposed be in Australia working on his footwork and forehand. He was still the best player in Australia when he retired and could have been the best player for another 4-8 years if he wanted to, but decided it was time to move on.

 

[Zezima]

Hulk smash

Overthinking bad.

Hulk brain good.

For me I am not even overthinking. I know some other players tell me they think too much but for me I am fighting with negative emotions inside me. Its just a terrible feeling as if my body tries to warn me of making mistakes.

 

[songdavid98]

this is plain wrong. This would be only true if I can make those same shots only consciously which is not the case to me. In Training I do them subconsciously as well.

That means you don’t understand what you are doing.

 

[songdavid98]

For me I am not even overthinking. I know some other players tell me they think too much but for me I am fighting with negative emotions inside me. Its just a terrible feeling as if my body tries to warn me of making mistakes.

It’s not a mistake to hit hard.

if hit succeeds, good.
If the hit goes into the net, you learn: spin higher next time.
If the hit goes out, you learn: raise backswing next time.

The only mistake is that you didnt try. That should be the terrible feeling.

 

[Zezima]

So a couple of things here - I don't have to be 100% right - I am telling you how I interpret the match watching it. Someone else may see it differently. I am a better player than you are (even if aspects of your style could cause me problems with my mobility) and I am trying to tell you how someone with an offensive mindset sees your play. A higher level coach than me could give you very different advice. A defensive chopper could give you different advice. The point is for you to at least see how someone sees your play and who is markedly more offensive than you are.

Everyone is allowed to make mistakes and misread the ball. If someone pushes the ball and pops it up, then they felt there was backspin there that wasn't and that is what I mean by no backspin. Do realize that when you serve, the ball gains topspin as it goes through the table so it is quite possible for a serve that started as light backspin to have no-spin. The main thing is that he popped up the ball so he overestimated the spin. Your stroke didn't match the ball so you missed

But the beautiful thing about topspin is that once you read the ball is in a certain range, if your stroke is in a certain range that matches the ball, the ball will dip onto the table. That is why people with good acceleration and timing play topspin against as many balls as possible. For me, if I start the match missing, I continue missing until I start making it. There might be a few push exceptions if the ball is backspin and I push and the opponent's attack isn't overwhelming me. but I am an attacking player, I am okay missing until I lock into my opponent's spin. I have lost enough matches missing and making shots that in the end, a principled approach to selection is more important than doing stuff that wins one point but doesn't agree with how I play. But I have also trained to play that way.

You read missing very differently from me. You think it is a big deal. Losing points is not a big deal, nor is the consequence of losing a match. It is part of table tennis. The opponent has a right to win points too. Your attitude is that of a defensive player. They don't like to miss they are okay with their opponents hitting the ball at them and their reacting to the play. This is not a bad attitude, some players are extremely successful with it. But it is not the attitude of a fundamentally offensive player. Offensive players want the opponent to take the match from them. Defensive players want to counterpunch and hate making mistakes.

Some of my comments are based on how I think these plays will survive at a higher level. But I can't experience the speed or ball quality, so maybe I am not giving you enough credit for how you play. But honestly, when I play like this consistently at my level, people pivot and attack. Or I come under pressure from over the table backhand flicks. I get the ball looped at me when I serve long so I don't do it often. I tend to open on anything long or half long so people know I have that reputation and try to keep the ball short. Do I make it all the time? Of course not. But the odds are in my favor once I adapt.

It is okay to play the style you want to play if you are happy with it and it works for you. There are many good defensive players. Many good counterpunchers. In fact, I used to be a blocker with counterpunching offense up until maybe 2015 when I became largely more offensive after a lot of forehand work. In fact, I could see aspects of what you do being reasonably good if you can maintain them at higher levels though it is harder to maintain them at higher levels.

idk maybe you misread my reply. I just put my own thoughts in without ever getting defensive in my response.

I also want to say that I definetly think I am too passive especially on the backhand. It's just not a lot using my backhand topspin 4 times or so in the entire match on the receive. The less I used it the less confident I can get so I agree with you. I just can't overcome my negative emotions in that moment. Like even when I tell my brain to loop I am still hesitating and maybe stop my motion. The fear is so big in that moment of doing a mistake. And it changes my game a lot. He eventually abused my backhand pushes and got comfortable looping constantly so he got 150 Topspins in that match and I got like 30 maybe with the fh I mean. The numbers are made up. But as you said within 150 he could adjust better and knew what to do better the longer the match went on. While my 30th topspin felt as insecure maybe as my 10th. So I definetely want to get more attacks going from both wings

 

[NextLevel]

Again you don't know his playing level I don't know either. I don't go defense I challenge what they say. Same with you and the others. As someone said before I have to be careful who to listen to and since I don't know peoples playing rate/expertise I pick only the ones that I understand and sounds solid to me.

@ThePongCommenter maybe means well but he is very aggressive and very passive aggressive without much explaining his thoughtprocess. Obviously I will challenge his stance. If he gets offended he is free to leave this thread. He comes off as someone who is just who just wants to drop his opinion in a toxic way (atleast to me).



I seem to do this at the beginning of the set. First 2 points in the first set great example. Where I am very lose relaxed and don't care if I miss or not. But the longer the game goes the more I "care" and the less I am tempted to try out and find out if that loop would have worked or not. My balance there is definetly on the passive side.

I also don't get defensive to you or people who come across genuinely friendly towards me, as I replied to your big post, where I also took big effort to reply to even though you might not read it, it was still helpful to me to put my thoughts to each point. I feel like I have the entire game memorized in my head now so I call it worth.


This is still not the problem. I actually want to prove this by just attacking fully in my next match even though I might lose hard. But you raised a good point with the backup blade. My lil brother wants me to go back to W968 and said I played much better in the last round that was a year ago.

He means these games. He says I don't play really better with the korbel. That's why I am a bit tempted to not buy a backup blade of korbel if thats really my plan. I actually haven't touched the w968 setup for 3months now. I do want to change during the season. I think I will get accustomed to the new rubbers within a week. When I used H3n on my fh I even beat the player I previously lost to after just playing for a week or two. Since I am not hardcore hitting and playing more with "feel" I get used to it faster I guess.

@ThePongCommenter means well, we all don't coach the same way, and I can sound like him on some days as well. Living where you don't get exposed to higher level player wisdom is hard, so it can be a bit annoying to get higher level player wisdom being debated repeatedly. But what he is saying is in line with what a lot of even the experienced players, many of whom have posted videos on the site repeatedly like @Takkyu_wa_inochi and @dingyibvs have told you already. You just aren't a great politician when dealing with their advice.

You can play fine with any blade and any rubber combination that is reasonable. Usually, slow blade and fast rubber (so your Korbel would usually go with something non-sticky) or fast blade and sticky/hybrid rubbers. Remember I told you that using a Korbel with Dignics 09c didn't really make sense to me. But everyone learns and experiences things, there are benefits and negatives to everything. But in the end, the main thing is your ability to accelerate the forearm in away that keeps you confident that the ball will land on the table because of the spin and not because you patted it.

Going from sticky rubber to non-sticky for most players is a different dance but you know yourself. Good luck with any changes and let's see how it goes. Gotta disappear in a few.

 

[NextLevel]

That means you don’t understand what you are doing.

I don't think anyone "understands" what they are doing, I would phrase this as "you don't have a good framework for what you are doing." or "your framework doesn't allow you to swing fast and add/adjust to spin, it just means either you make it or hit the ball softer". Sometimes, people play well and they don't really understand what they are doing, they just have a rough idea something works.

 

[NextLevel]

idk maybe you misread my reply. I just put my own thoughts in without ever getting defensive in my response.

I also want to say that I definetly think I am too passive especially on the backhand. It's just not a lot using my backhand topspin 4 times or so in the entire match on the receive. The less I used it the less confident I can get so I agree with you. I just can't overcome my negative emotions in that moment. Like even when I tell my brain to loop I am still hesitating and maybe stop my motion. The fear is so big in that moment of doing a mistake. And it changes my game a lot. He eventually abused my backhand pushes and got comfortable looping constantly so he got 150 Topspins in that match and I got like 30 maybe with the fh I mean. The numbers are made up. But as you said within 150 he could adjust better and knew what to do better the longer the match went on. While my 30th topspin felt as insecure maybe as my 10th. So I definetely want to get more attacks going from both wings

Here is a video that describes a part of what I think is optimal BH technique. Is this how you spin the ball? Do you feel as if you are pulling your racket into the ball everytime you play a backhand topspin? IF you do not, I would argue that your backhand technique is suboptimal. But if it works for you, that is fine, but the main point is that this is how you develop confidence. Find the ideal way to swing, then practice using it on different kinds of balls and get better at adjusting.

 

[songdavid98]

Sometimes, people play well and they don't really understand what they are doing, they just have a rough idea something works.

That's bad...
That's exactly how players get stuck.. forever 1400, forever 1600, forever 1800, etc...

We can all see how Zezima is mentally stuck right now.
I'm trying to tackle it.
I don't like that you're saying that it's ok.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Again you don't know his playing level I don't know either. I don't go defense I challenge what they say. Same with you and the others. As someone said before I have to be careful who to listen to and since I don't know peoples playing rate/expertise I pick only the ones that I understand and sounds solid to me.

@NextLevel doesn't know me personally but he probably has enough context clues from public and private discussions that I am a far better and more experienced player and coach than you are. He tried hinting at that in an earlier post but you just missed it or refused to accept it.

Unfortunately, after all these threads you are still not wise enough to correctly pick the advice that is solid. As @zeio once quipped, certain threads become "noob detectors".

@ThePongCommenter maybe means well but he is very aggressive and very passive aggressive without much explaining his thoughtprocess. Obviously I will challenge his stance. If he gets offended he is free to leave this thread. He comes off as someone who is just who just wants to drop his opinion in a toxic way (atleast to me).

Oh, I'm just meeting you with the same attitude I've seen you have on another forum that I read but don't comment on.

What you seem to still not grasp is that, while your ramblings are nearing a full time job for you, most other people do not want to engage in nonstop back and forth paragraphs where they have to explain themselves. They are taking their free time to contribute and are not getting paid for it. If you ever worked with a real coach you would realize this too. They will explain themselves to a certain point but when your words and actions show that you are more interested in questioning and challenging rather than trusting, people give up. Especially when they aren't being paid for it. I have people in real life, far better players than you, who seek my advice (some of it works, some of it doesn't, I don't know everything) and some who pay for it -- so no, I am not going to write paragraphs to elaborate on what I know is good advice, begging for you to trust me, it is on you to take it or leave it.

You come across as someone who is incapable of the trusting part, and only the questioning and challenging. There's a reason nearly everybody on your threads has told you this. So am I the toxic one or are you? Lol.

 

[Zezima]

Your light backspin is main reason for his light backspin.
His timing is late too.
His cutting speed is slow too.

Combine everything together, the ball isn't very spinny.

I like this kind of question.
These questions are very important.
Please ask more of these kinds of questions.

I hope you don't mean it sarcastically.

Either way if I do light backspin and he also just does a lightbackspin motion doesn't it result in closer to a no spin? Or does his motion really have to be just lifting the ball?

When I give a lot of backspin can he always make it a no spin ball if he just holds his racket for example?

I know for example when I played against a girl with short pips on her fh when warming up I couldnt loop twice in a row.(I beat her 3-0 in the finals still lol) But she was actively doing a small snap fh topspin brush aswell. I just wonder here if a normal rubber can achieve the same with an active stroke. I only know that you can neutralize the sidespin with an active stroke (hitting the same side) but not sure right now if thats possible with a backspin pushing motion to make a no spin ball

 

[NextLevel]

That's bad...
That's exactly how players get stuck.. forever 1400, forever 1600, forever 1800, etc...

We can all see how Zezima is mentally stuck right now.
I'm trying to tackle it.
I don't like that you're saying that it's ok.

I know what you mean, but my point is that it is the framework that matters, but hitting the ball a lot in practice also matters because the framework can be right but without the right practice, one can lack confidence in it. Sometimes (and since you are young, you might not fully appreciate it), being stuck at a level isn't fully about being mentally stuck, But I agree that failing to fulfill your individual maximum potential can be.

 

[Zezima]

Not sure what the contradiction is. Shot selection depends on your ability to make the shot. But winning points is not everything, you realize this. When someone serves long, the correct thing is to play a topspin. If it is a long serve, most players with good backhand should have practice attacking long serves with the backhand enough that they feel comfortable spinning the ball. What I want to do in that situation is spin the ball heavy (not fast, but heavy) and let the opponent prove they can counterloop it or block it. If they can, then I look for other options or placements. But if they can't, I shut down the long serve and they now have to try to serve shorter and that puts them under pressure for the rest of the match especially if they are struggling to keep the serve short.

When you say you didn't want to snap etc., all of this comes down to reading the ball and picking the right contact point. You almost always need to snap on a loop, the only thing I would change is the size/height of the follow through. But these are all technical details that you can work out when you always swing fast, swinging fast is the key, then the next thing is figuring out how to adapt to the ball. But slow swings to keep the ball on the table are not the way to get better faster. There should always be some acceleration, it all depends on where on the ball you need to touch and how you need to finish the stroke after that.

Your internal dialog is just based on lack of experience. Try to use the same stroke over and over again to adapt to the ball. Stop trying to put the ball on the table, just swing at the ball and see what it does. Then try to understand what changes to the swing and contact point change what the ball does in a way that gives you a framework for always swinging fast. You can swing relatively fast at any ball, it is just about how you swing and where you contact the ball to produce a certain result. And the mistake just gives you information.

Another mental barrier is after watching that serve return video from pech pong with that youth player I think. Where he said on serve receive you don't need a fast motion. But I do it all wrong and the stroke is also very long in my opinion I am throwing my racket higher than my head even at a long backspin topspin. I trained so much backhand and yet I am training it wrong in a way that if it works in training I don't exactly know why but I can reproduce it in that session. But if its not working in matches I can't fix it myself properly so I can get the confidence to keep trying.

For my next sessions and matches I can keep telling myself its gonna be a snap motion always even if I loop out that would only mean that I need to brush more aka hit thinner right?

 

[songdavid98]

I hope you don't mean it sarcastically.

No i'm not sarcastic about this type of question.
I think it's really important when it comes to 'not missing your loop'.
So I'm happy about it.

Either way if I do light backspin and he also just does a lightbackspin motion doesn't it result in closer to a no spin? Or does his motion really have to be just lifting the ball?

I'm not sure what you are visualizing in your head, but:

you serve light backspin, he cuts it slowly ---> light backspin
you serve light backspin, he lifts the ball ----> light topspin

When I give a lot of backspin can he always make it a no spin ball if he just holds his racket for example?

you serve heavy backspin, he does a super lift --> no spin
you serve heavy backspin, he does fh flick from the bottom of the ball --> no spin
you serve heavy backspin, he does nothing but touch the bottom of the ball --> light backspin

////////////

inverted rubber gives spin back even when you "do nothing".
that's why blocking lightly gives topspin when it gets lots of topspin.
that's why pushing lightly gives backspin when it gets lot of backspin.

 

[NextLevel]

Another mental barrier is after watching that serve return video from pech pong with that youth player I think. Where he said on serve receive you don't need a fast motion. But I do it all wrong and the stroke is also very long in my opinion I am throwing my racket higher than my head even at a long backspin topspin. I trained so much backhand and yet I am training it wrong in a way that if it works in training I don't exactly know why but I can reproduce it in that session. But if its not working in matches I can't fix it myself properly so I can get the confidence to keep trying.

For my next sessions and matches I can keep telling myself its gonna be a snap motion always even if I loop out that would only mean that I need to brush more aka hit thinner right?

There are lot of good internet coaches who if you pay them, can analyze your technique and give you recommendations. Some players who are lucky to be in good environments make fun of coaching. But whether remote or not, it is important to get someone to give you feedback on your technique in close to real time and fix it.

Most strokes in table tennis use whip motions. If your arm and fingers are working like a whip, then your acceleration tends to be optimal. If not, there is room for improvement.

 

[Zezima]

I don't wish to offend you, but I do believe what you need to hear is "tough love" approach. Meaning, the harsh truth.

I'll put it boldly - stop playing like a scared *****.
You're playing like you're afraid to lose, not like you're trying to win.

I Also, like a lot of adult developing players, am guilty of that at times. But IMO you're taking it to another level. You're playing WAY too scared, against all your opponents despite of their limited skillsets. You're always looking way too timid, and play with no guts and way way too passive, for no apparent reason. It's just a game. Who care if we lose??? The only way to get better is to lose. IMO you need to sacrifice some wins in order to break that fear.

Tell yourself - I don't care if I lose the next 50 games I'll play in a row. 50 straight loses? I don't care. It doesn't matter.

What you should care about is getting better, playing with confidence, playing aggressive, using your attacking shots arsenal, DARE TO GO FO IT. put the results on the side for a few months.

You're been playing too many years to be playing so timid, IMO it's better to lose "going for it" then win playing scared based on the mistakes your opponent makes. You have a higher playing potential then your showing in your games, and IMO a big part of is bad mentality.

Caring too much, thinking too much, fearing too much - all these don't allow you to play free and aggressive enough. You have to dare to win, focus on improving and not on the result of every each ball. It's not surprising to hear you play better at practice because your mental approach is different at practice. You need to close that gap between practice and matches.

Enjoy yourself, remember it's just a game, it's not your profession, with time i think the care-free approach would help you take your game to another level. (and yes, also switch to easier rubbers, and also like I wrote you on the other thread - you need to practice with better players -it makes a huge difference).

Just my 2 cents, take it or leave it - I'm just trying to call it how I see it without sugarcoating it in hopes it will be beneficial for you to hear.

I try but in 1,5months the season will be over. And until october I won't have a match that counts to my rating.
But yeah you summed it well. I also have that feeling. Its like I have all the tools but I am too scared. I am also here on the forum talking a lot. So it feels like I need to get rewarded for the time I put in compared to everyone else who plays with a idgaf attitude and just plays that "weak" one dimensional playstyle that they learned. And I agree this thing has kept me too much back over the last 4-5years. Even though I climbed from 800-1500 but for the next step I need to change this mentality.

But it sounds so bad reading this even though its the truth:

Caring too much, thinking too much, fearing too much - all these don't allow you to play free and aggressive enough.

Enjoy yourself, remember it's just a game, it's not your profession, with time i think the care-free approach would help you take your game to another level.

I know its not my profession but TT plays a big part in my life still and maybe I put my selfvalue? not sure the word too much with my "success" in table tennis.

also switch to easier rubbers,

I am thinking about which one to..
practice with better players

I actively wrote others and this monday I have a chance to play with better practise partners finally.

Thank you appreciate it

 

[Zezima]

@ThePongCommenter is 100% correct and you are plain wrong. There is a saying in TT that if you cannot do it at 10-10 or 10-11 in the 5th game of a match, you really can't do it. Because the body does what it believes it can do. Doesn't mean you will make it, but the confidence to do it must first be there, and that confidence comes from doing it under pressure at many key points. Basically, you can argue the semantics all you want, but if you talk to good coaches and players, they speak like @ThePongCommenter and not like you.

again have to disagree with you here. It has nothing to do with subconsiously not knowing how to hit the ball but more like nerves /brain mentality whatever you call it. Even you write at 10-10 10-11 or whatever. Playing under pressure is different problem. Thats why you see so many players being a monster in the training hall but the same ball in a match they play like me.

 

[Zezima]

Will respond to different parts of your post in a few responses but this part is critical.

First of all, you can be beating these players 3-0. Not today, but it is quite possible. Even though you have played 9 years, some of it depends on whether you have been in the right environments. Hey, I know someone who started serious training is his early 30s broke 2200 in his 30s and beat professional players in his late 30s and very early 40s. I am not saying you are at that athletic level, but I am saying that if you get into a good training environment and learn the right things, some changes are possible if you expose yourself to the right things. But the biggest thing that will stop this is having the wrong attitude to making mistakes in the right environment because the struggles can cause you to quit early rather than continue the process.

You have more than enough skill to take that ball with your forehand. You just haven't tried it enough to think you do. If you spent more time training half long serve receives with the forehand (which I have repeatedly told you to do), you would know how to use the forearm and fingers to generate spin on most slow balls and you would play a decent topspin on that ball. One of the mistakes some players at our level make is that the focus on the speed of the topspin when playing such balls rather than the spin. In fact, spinny topspins that land short create problems for some players. All you had to do was brush the ball, get it on the table and then your forehand and offensive orientation is maintained.

This is always my goal slow spinny on the table. But sometimes like in the first two points in the match I brush too much upwards. My goal is not even to hit it hard on the other side. But I make mistakes like this. I should also be working on medium paced topspin even if I can hit harder. I feel like I am so under pressure that I have to fully go all out.

 

[NextLevel]

again have to disagree with you here. It has nothing to do with subconsiously not knowing how to hit the ball but more like nerves /brain mentality whatever you call it. Even you write at 10-10 10-11 or whatever. Playing under pressure is different problem. Thats why you see so many players being a monster in the training hall but the same ball in a match they play like me.

Okay. At a certain point you will have to figure it out yourself if it works for you. I have told you how better players think, you are free to disagree with them. This is not an unusual debate by the way, some people talk about Lin Gaoyuan's unreliable game, but some people say it is because his technique is not stable enough with spin to handle pressure moments. So you are not unique in having your own disagreements.

 

[NextLevel]

This is always my goal slow spinny on the table. But sometimes like in the first two points in the match I brush too much upwards. My goal is not even to hit it hard on the other side. But I make mistakes like this. I should also be working on medium paced topspin even if I can hit harder. I feel like I am so under pressure that I have to fully go all out.

Your technique is suboptimal. As @songdavid98 said, you are doing something wrong, you don't understand it is wrong, and you continue doing it. And then under pressure it fails you, but you think it is you, not realizing that what you are doing is wrong even if you think it is correct.