Match tactics

[Zezima]

If it’s a sparring match, just try to counterloop. Winning or losing doesn’t matter in sparring. Improving your game and building confidence should be your main objectives. Start slowly. There’s no need to counterloop hard like the pros. Just guide the ball with control.

In my opinion, we often exaggerate the strategic side of the game. It is strategic, but at a certain point, especially when we feel tense, we fall back into set patterns. Noticing those patterns is important if you want to take the initiative in this sport.

Oh I thought you were talking about my match against my opp in league.

I repeat myself but I so far I didn't have much chance to train with someone with a good fh topspin. The ones against 1000-1200 I can counter. It is still a shot I never feel confident no.matter if I have a 90% hit rate. It just always feels super risky emotional wise.

 

[Zezima]

And if you do that stroke too slow you eat the incoming spin and the ball flys uncontrolled still. Maybe you have a better example you can show what you mean by guiding it back slowly

 

[Zezima]

Wtf I just watched my previous encounter against him when I was playing with W968 or Long 5 but with the d09c rubbers. I remember the rubbers were super fresh aswell 2nd session or so.

Anyway I was way more aggressive against him back then:

another ball I blocked only last time

Up to this point I looped more with backhand than in the entire game that I just recently played.

ok maybe I am too relaxed again since I am 6-10 down but still.


This is my goal when I receive with my fh

This exact speed not more not less. Just be safe and spinny. Hard to achieve constantly I feel like or when I am nervous atleast.

https://youtu.be/sa9VWPMgaTA?t=510 again I am trying.
https://youtu.be/sa9VWPMgaTA?t=537 and again trying

Even towards the end I received well with the bh loop.



So I see a lot of decisionmaking problem that is holding me back moving up.

I did like 10+ Backhand loops with about 80-90% success rate. I still pushed a lot of serves back.

My forehand receive with pushes were bad. That was much better in my last encounter. ->

Overall I was playing more relaxed and played with much more confidence. back then even though it didn't work out many times. I wonder if that has something to do with the equipment change but I have been playing with korbel for 3months now. I doubt thats the case.

My opponent played the same way both times. But I played differently. I also served with worse quality back then compared to my last encounter. So Serves got better. Even back then if I had accepted that I am gonna lose some points trying to attack his serves I would have won the game. But the outcome doesn't matter in hindsight.

 

[Zezima]

I also think I should practise this in every session from now on.

I feel like in the match I was always going for a fast topspin except on receive. But why not vary and go for a slower spinnier topspin? I think especially against my opponent this would have worked even better since he likes to go far back. So giving him a slower spinnier ball would be effective I think.

 

[NextLevel]

No I just think we talk about different topics and you two try to combine two different issues. I mean we can just agree to disagree at this point. I don't want to put more energy into that discussion. So let's leave it at that.


We all have suboptimal techniques even pros. I mean you watched the entire match if you forgot how it went a quick

tldr: I am scooping instead of not being afraid to loop when the block lands short for example.
I am too afraid too loop long backspin balls to my bh (only did like ~4 times in the entire match about 50% hitrate)
Afraid to collect data by topspinning even from suboptimal positions with the fh.
Some tactical mistakes like looping to the fh or blocking to the fh when I could have gone hard on his backhand especially after he left the table.

Like it's hard to talk about technical mistakes if I am too scared to make them. The few I missed were basically in the beginning (looping out collecting data) then stopped collecting data and tried really hard many many times. Even backspin balls I wanted to loop hard forwards. Just stiffening up so much when trying so hard to penetrate the rubber to "get spin" but it only works when I am relaxing.

I think I will go with T19 max. For the Bh I will decide after Mondays training session. But I think I will listen to the people here that tell me that t05 fx is too soft for me. So I will look for a more lively rubber than R7 but softer than d09c still but not as catapulty as a D80. No clue what that one could be.

Also I would like to ask what kind of drills I can practise for the match to get more balls to the middle/fh side without me giving them a ball on to their fh (most people loop diagonal) Because if I keep them at their bh I am thinking too much about covering my own bh with my bh so it gets harder for me to use the fh.

Also I will keep in mind to use my reverse pendulum serve to their short fh. Also long in to their bh (fast) -> But I need to rpactise this ball more if they don't miss the receive because that ball is very difficult to deal for me since it drifts far to my bh so I have to learn hitting that with my bh first. And if they chop it downwards it is even more difficult to loop with my bh and even to push I guess I need to do it more and practise attacking that ball more.

Also I will keep in mind to serve more short balls but varying the spin with backspin no spin pure side and sidetop to keep em guessing and making some pop up.

Like I have said, good players agree with @ThePongCommenter, you can stick with the amateur fan psychologists.. I will go with the good players. You can think whatever you want. You can be right but it will not make you a better player. These are some of the kinds of arguments that I had with my coach where he would try to explain how a good player saw the game and I would give him some arguments. Eventually, I learned it was more important to understand how he thought so that I could get better than to argue with him so that I could be right. As an example, it took me a long time to accept my coach's advice that I should learn to spin the ball with more rotation and focus less on driving the ball hard. It wasn't until I had a day where I lost all my matches and his other students won their events that I asked what I was doing wrong and everyone told me I don't spin the ball. In my head, I was spinning the ball but what I was doing it with speed, They wanted me to increase the rotation on the ball as the focus of my stroke even if it went slowly at first, so that i could get that timing down and then retain it when i added speed.. Of course, since I had been arguing so much but I had no wins to show for it, I decided to just do it. I immediately started challenging players that I couldn't before and beat all the players i lost to at the prior event. But technically I was right, even short pips hitters spin the ball so I was spinning the ball. In the end, if it works for you, keep thinking it. But in the end, you will be stuck where you are, at least in your understanding of the sport if you think it is more important to be right than to understand how a better player thinks.

When I say you have suboptimal technique, I am saying that there are things about the stroke that make it extremely likely to break down even at the level you play at. This is *not* what is meant by a pro having suboptimal technique in most cases. Your in many cases don't swing with whip and you don't complete the acceleration of your swings to the right finishing positions. Your backhand backswing doesn't have high level acceleration - it is a decent swing, but there is a gap between it and a truly nuclear weapon backhand. The elbow does not lead the stroke and pull the racket into the ball. Someone can have good technique and not have the physical ability to keep up with a more athletic player. Someone can even be injured. But someone can be athletic and just not approach the ball correctly or maybe they do something that can work sometimes when they play at 1200 level but it will not work at 1400 or or 1800 etc. That is what I mean when I say your technique is not optimal. If you do not read the ball perfectly, the stroke does not have features that make it safe to execute because of the spin potential so you are stuck trying to softly approach the ball after you miss a couple of attempts.

 

[Zezima]

Like I have said, good players agree with @ThePongCommenter, you can stick with the amateur fan psychologists.. I will go with the good players. You can think whatever you want. You can be right but it will not make you a better player. These are some of the kinds of arguments that I had with my coach where he would try to explain how a good player saw the game and I would give him some arguments. Eventually, I learned it was more important to understand how he thought so that I could get better than to argue with him so that I could be right. As an example, it took me a long time to accept my coach's advice that I should learn to spin the ball with more rotation and focus less on driving the ball hard. It wasn't until I had a day where I lost all my matches and his other students won their events that I asked what I was doing wrong and everyone told me I don't spin the ball. In my head, I was spinning the ball but what I was doing it with speed, They wanted me to increase the rotation on the ball as the focus of my stroke even if it went slowly at first, so that i could get that timing down and then retain it when i added speed.. Of course, since I had been arguing so much but I had no wins to show for it, I decided to just do it. I immediately started challenging players that I couldn't before and beat all the players i lost to at the prior event. But technically I was right, even short pips hitters spin the ball so I was spinning the ball. In the end, if it works for you, keep thinking it. But in the end, you will be stuck where you are, at least in your understanding of the sport if you think it is more important to be right than to understand how a better player thinks.

When I say you have suboptimal technique, I am saying that there are things about the stroke that make it extremely likely to break down even at the level you play at. This is *not* what is meant by a pro having suboptimal technique in most cases. Your in many cases don't swing with whip and you don't complete the acceleration of your swings to the right finishing positions. Your backhand backswing doesn't have high level acceleration - it is a decent swing, but there is a gap between it and a truly nuclear weapon backhand. The elbow does not lead the stroke and pull the racket into the ball. Someone can have good technique and not have the physical ability to keep up with a more athletic player. Someone can even be injured. But someone can be athletic and just not approach the ball correctly or maybe they do something that can work sometimes when they play at 1200 level but it will not work at 1400 or or 1800 etc. That is what I mean when I say your technique is not optimal. If you do not read the ball perfectly, the stroke does not have features that make it safe to execute because of the spin potential so you are stuck trying to softly approach the ball after you miss a couple of attempts.

Please you are a moderator. I literally told you to end that topic and you write me another paragraph about him and about that topic.

Here my bh:

I know its not a good flip but the fact I can flip in trainingsmatch situation but never do in in league matches.

okey its not a rocket but a very safe compact bh loop which I think I pushed a lot back again in the league match. Very spinny aswell.

Here another tactical mistake not sure why I do this so often giving them into their sweet spot on the fh.

another decent bh rally
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1388

Here even though I lost the point in the end(placement mistake). Look how relaxed I am opening up in training and in match I am going hard and try to put so much strength into the ball. I don't feel the pressure to get blasted against him because I know he is "only" a 1450 player and not these 1600-1900 players I face.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1482


Here I am not afraid of his loop. This giving me so much confidence that the ball after this is also nuts.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1764

And since this is the best player I played match wise I am only used to this quality. Whoever spins harder than this or faster whatever my subconscious is not ready. That is why I actively talked with better players to find an environment where I can get used to higher level of gameplay.

Even in that match I got away with many scoop balls from my side. I just don't have to take every opportunity. My opponent is not forcing me to do so. But once under pressure I take too much risk and it also doesn't work.
I will need to use every opportunity I can get to play against slightly better players than me (so the pressure is not that much only a little but also they won't be able to pressure me a lot like a +1800 for example)


Anyway the goal of this comment was to show you guys what I am able to do in training and I still think Mental 90% is the issue. If I can loop like this I should atleast do it more often than 4x in the entire match and push it 95% of the times. I don't want that to happen ever again moving forward

Service:
Here I can serve really fast to the elbow so even more important to serve fast before they can pivot. The following point after is the serve you or someone mentioned doing more often.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1524


That last parallel shot which I did in my last match aswell. I should be more confident doing these more often.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1545

Idk you can even hear the nice sound how good I am hitting that fh. Obviously I am not going 100% but still this is more than enough if I can get these more consistent. And consistency comes by being more relaxed and when nothing is on stake. Which as someone mentioned earlier its just points/a match who cares.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1582

I don't know what this shot is called but I am so confident in pressing that ball? In my matches I just hold my racket :/
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1671

 

[NextLevel]

Please you are a moderator. I literally told you to end that topic and you write me another paragraph about him and about that topic.

Here my bh:

I know its not a good flip but the fact I can flip in trainingsmatch situation but never do in in league matches.

okey its not a rocket but a very safe compact bh loop which I think I pushed a lot back again in the league match. Very spinny aswell.

Here another tactical mistake not sure why I do this so often giving them into their sweet spot on the fh.

another decent bh rally
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1388

Here even though I lost the point in the end(placement mistake). Look how relaxed I am opening up in training and in match I am going hard and try to put so much strength into the ball. I don't feel the pressure to get blasted against him because I know he is "only" a 1450 player and not these 1600-1900 players I face.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1482


Here I am not afraid of his loop. This giving me so much confidence that the ball after this is also nuts.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1764

And since this is the best player I played match wise I am only used to this quality. Whoever spins harder than this or faster whatever my subconscious is not ready. That is why I actively talked with better players to find an environment where I can get used to higher level of gameplay.

Even in that match I got away with many scoop balls from my side. I just don't have to take every opportunity. My opponent is not forcing me to do so. But once under pressure I take too much risk and it also doesn't work.
I will need to use every opportunity I can get to play against slightly better players than me (so the pressure is not that much only a little but also they won't be able to pressure me a lot like a +1800 for example)


Anyway the goal of this comment was to show you guys what I am able to do in training and I still think Mental 90% is the issue. If I can loop like this I should atleast do it more often than 4x in the entire match and push it 95% of the times. I don't want that to happen ever again moving forward

Service:
Here I can serve really fast to the elbow so even more important to serve fast before they can pivot. The following point after is the serve you or someone mentioned doing more often.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1524


That last parallel shot which I did in my last match aswell. I should be more confident doing these more often.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1545

Idk you can even hear the nice sound how good I am hitting that fh. Obviously I am not going 100% but still this is more than enough if I can get these more consistent. And consistency comes by being more relaxed and when nothing is on stake. Which as someone mentioned earlier its just points/a match who cares.
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1582

I don't know what this shot is called but I am so confident in pressing that ball? In my matches I just hold my racket :/
https://youtu.be/RnnSn9xzO8U?t=1671

If you want to end a topic, the simplest way is to not respond to it. Because this theme will come up over and over again given how you approach advice with arguments so it is not going to end anytime soon. I personally wouldn't recommend arguing too seriously with the goal of trying to overlord a moderator. But what do I know, I am just a moderator. So the theme is not going to end because you want it to end you have to learn to stop being so defensive about every piece of advice given to you. Even now, you are already back to discussing equipment today. And then you present a timid flip as an example of being able to do a flip in practice.

Doing something well in practice means confidently making the shot in multiple scenarios and expressing the shot even in risky situations under pressure. None of these shots in your video show aggression or risk taking in a way that expresses extreme confidence in the shot. In fact, sometimes missing a shot with confidence and rhe right technique says much more than putting the ball on the table with timid technique.

I presented a video of how a pro coach uses an "unsheath the sword" approach where you make space by pull your left hip in and leading with the elbow to pull the racket qith massive acceleration into the ball. This for me is the technique that loads the backhand for maximum swing speed assuming you let it get expressed in the hand and fingers. If someone isn't generating apeed at this level, then what happens is that when they get a ball, they dont always feel they will make it so they will push. But when they do, they will swing even they will miss ans after the first miss, start to look at trajectory adaptation to the opponent. In other words, once you have a whippy fast swing and can spin the ball heavy, you stop thinking about your swing and start focusing on the opponent and finding the right trajectory to match their spin based on what you want to produce. When your swing is not optimal, then you just start looking for exact timing every time because you dont have the stroke yo give you confidence in the first place.

 

[Zezima]

Also I don't know if I had posted this video about my fh:

I want to transfer this into matchplay. I have been working on this more often lately. Different speed and controlled but still going hard.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

No one is saying here that you can't spin a ball or play xx FH in a row. But you're playing at your level. Your rating is not lying. its not a low rating. but its not particularly high either. We only have doubts that you can improve if you focus on the wrong things like EJ or overthinking. By "suboptimal" NL is not attacking you. Strictly everyone has suboptimal technique when seen from the Next Level above (pun intended). [even ML may think he has some suboptimal techniques !]

Technique is about consistency. If you are not consistent, your technique is wrong. That's it. No excuses.
and I'm saying this as a fellow intermediary player.

And by consistent i mean in match of course and under pressure. If you don't perform in match as in training, either you're training wrong (== you're not putting yourself in same mode/environment than in match) or you're playing your matches wrong (== you don't play with the same mentality than in training).

Practice like in match and play match like you practice !

[caveat: it doesnt necessarily mean you must spend 100% of your practice like in match mode. Actually you shouldn't. You should use practice to try new stuff and experiment. But in match you want to wait at least for some mastery in practice before using a new technique and incorporate new things progressively, especially for important matches]


Advanced players never make an easy mistake. They are able to do a topspin whatever ball is coming, whatever adjustment they need to make. Their shot is not necessarily faster than yours, usually more spinny (but not always) than yours. But they will not miss. WCQ doesn't always win 3-0 11-4 each game. Most of his opponents can do great points against him. But he prevails because of his consistency.

But the real reason why we amateurs perform less good in matches, is less about pressure and more about lack of familiarity. Its easy to play good in training because you play every week with the same guy, you are used to his ball quality and placement, and serves... you play a different guy, its a total different story. People with good technique can adapt to any player, any ball. If you train with only the 3 same persons (worse with same kind of style) , its normal to struggle against unknown players.

So people here are not saying you can't play. If you're happy with your technique that you show in your videos then its all fine but it would mean you're happy of your rating and it looks like you're not really happy about your rating so...

We practice with stronger players. Sometimes we do great shots, we score great points against them, we even take a game or 2. But they win. When we take 1 or 2 games we think the gap is small but in reality its huge and more evident when we see them practice and see they are more way more consistent. They move better and adapt to the ball. Their form sometimes look more ugly than ours. Maybe they can't drive with BH at all (or FH). But some other part of their game is very strong. its not a single thing but a lot of details.

Hence the focus on consistency. Because its difficult to isolate a single issue in a shot. Practice against all type of balls. short, long, topspin, backspin. when your moving from right or left, or from behind or from the table. and consistent is not just % of ball on the table but precision of placement, quality, and also stability of body , recovery.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

If you want to end a topic, the simplest way is to not respond to it. Because this theme will come up over and over again given how you approach advice with arguments so it is not going to end anytime soon. I personally wouldn't recommend arguing too seriously with the goal of trying to overlord a moderator. But what do I know, I am just a moderator. So the theme is not going to end because you want it to end you have to learn to stop being so defensive about every piece of advice given to you. Even now, you are already back to discussing equipment today. And then you present a timid flip as an example of being able to do a flip in practice.

Doing something well in practice means confidently making the shot in multiple scenarios and expressing the shot even in risky situations under pressure. None of these shots in your video show aggression or risk taking in a way that expresses extreme confidence in the shot. In fact, sometimes missing a shot with confidence and rhe right technique says much more than putting the ball on the table with timid technique.

I presented a video of how a pro coach uses an "unsheath the sword" approach where you make space by pull your left hip in and leading with the elbow to pull the racket qith massive acceleration into the ball. This for me is the technique that loads the backhand for maximum swing speed assuming you let it get expressed in the hand and fingers. If someone isn't generating apeed at this level, then what happens is that when they get a ball, they dont always feel they will make it so they will push. But when they do, they will swing even they will miss ans after the first miss, start to look at trajectory adaptation to the opponent. In other words, once you have a whippy fast swing and can spin the ball heavy, you stop thinking about your swing and start focusing on the opponent and finding the right trajectory to match their spin based on what you want to produce. When your swing is not optimal, then you just start looking for exact timing every time because you dont have the stroke yo give you confidence in the first place.

As @Zezima wisely stated on another forum not even two weeks ago after annoyingly grammar policing an 11-year-old non-native English speaker who had reached out help, "If you are that vulnerable to getting feedback then look into your childhood."

 

[NextLevel]

No one is saying here that you can't spin a ball or play xx FH in a row. But you're playing at your level. Your rating is not lying. its not a low rating. but its not particularly high either. We only have doubts that you can improve if you focus on the wrong things like EJ or overthinking. By "suboptimal" NL is not attacking you. Strictly everyone has suboptimal technique when seen from the Next Level above (pun intended). [even ML may think he has some suboptimal techniques !]

Technique is about consistency. If you are not consistent, your technique is wrong. That's it. No excuses.
and I'm saying this as a fellow intermediary player.

And by consistent i mean in match of course and under pressure. If you don't perform in match as in training, either you're training wrong (== you're not putting yourself in same mode/environment than in match) or you're playing your matches wrong (== you don't play with the same mentality than in training).

Practice like in match and play match like you practice !

[caveat: it doesnt necessarily mean you must spend 100% of your practice like in match mode. Actually you shouldn't. You should use practice to try new stuff and experiment. But in match you want to wait at least for some mastery in practice before using a new technique and incorporate new things progressively, especially for important matches]


Advanced players never make an easy mistake. They are able to do a topspin whatever ball is coming, whatever adjustment they need to make. Their shot is not necessarily faster than yours, usually more spinny (but not always) than yours. But they will not miss. WCQ doesn't always win 3-0 11-4 each game. Most of his opponents can do great points against him. But he prevails because of his consistency.

But the real reason why we amateurs perform less good in matches, is less about pressure and more about lack of familiarity. Its easy to play good in training because you play every week with the same guy, you are used to his ball quality and placement, and serves... you play a different guy, its a total different story. People with good technique can adapt to any player, any ball. If you train with only the 3 same persons (worse with same kind of style) , its normal to struggle against unknown players.

So people here are not saying you can't play. If you're happy with your technique that you show in your videos then its all fine but it would mean you're happy of your rating and it looks like you're not really happy about your rating so...

We practice with stronger players. Sometimes we do great shots, we score great points against them, we even take a game or 2. But they win. When we take 1 or 2 games we think the gap is small but in reality its huge and more evident when we see them practice and see they are more way more consistent. They move better and adapt to the ball. Their form sometimes look more ugly than ours. Maybe they can't drive with BH at all (or FH). But some other part of their game is very strong. its not a single thing but a lot of details.

Hence the focus on consistency. Because its difficult to isolate a single issue in a shot. Practice against all type of balls. short, long, topspin, backspin. when your moving from right or left, or from behind or from the table. and consistent is not just % of ball on the table but precision of placement, quality, and also stability of body , recovery.

We are focused on slightly different things even if we are trying to get to the same place. I am just pointing out that his swing is not consistently able to generate speed over short distances and he often follows through incorrectly because of that, it will not be confident when he plays against faster players. Now this can be an athletic thing or a technique thing. My point is that in this case it is a technique thing and nothing he has posted really changes that assessment. That he wants to take it personally is his prerogative and dont get me wrong, if he doesnt want advice that is fair. I don't want much advice either because my body is unable to do the things I want to do despite my pushing it so I am just trying my hardest to maintain.and reduce injuries. But if he wants to improve his swing confidence. IMHO, given his limitations, he needs to improve his understanding of whip mechanics, where he starts his racket, and his follow through needs to wrap the ball as well

Again, everyone does this a little differently. But I wouldn't focus on practicing his current backhand to use it in marches more, I would focus on improving his acceleration so that he doesn't feel swinging at the ball quickly to match the backspin on the ball is difficult.

 

[Zezima]

No one is saying here that you can't spin a ball or play xx FH in a row. But you're playing at your level. Your rating is not lying. its not a low rating. but its not particularly high either. We only have doubts that you can improve if you focus on the wrong things like EJ or overthinking. By "suboptimal" NL is not attacking you. Strictly everyone has suboptimal technique when seen from the Next Level above (pun intended). [even ML may think he has some suboptimal techniques !]

I wasn't getting defensive. Just stating my point of view. I don't care about my rating really other than seeing where I stand currently. I don't think I will be more happy with a 1900 or something. My goal is just to push myself as high as possible with the circumstances I am in.

Technique is about consistency. If you are not consistent, your technique is wrong. That's it. No excuses.
and I'm saying this as a fellow intermediary player.

And by consistent i mean in match of course and under pressure. If you don't perform in match as in training, either you're training wrong (== you're not putting yourself in same mode/environment than in match) or you're playing your matches wrong (== you don't play with the same mentality than in training).

Alright wait wait lets break this down for a moment.

• Technique = knowing how to perform the skill correctly.
• Consistency = being able to perform it correctly repeatedly.

A more accurate statement would be:
“Technique is the foundation for consistency.”
When someone tells me I can't loop hard or I can't do fast hard bh topspins I will simply disagree every single time.
If you or @NextLevel had said you have the technique you made those shots in training you just need to practise more in different situations also do it more in matches so the transition happens sooner I would have agreed with both of you. Or just say I am inconsistent.

Practice like in match and play match like you practice !

[caveat: it doesnt necessarily mean you must spend 100% of your practice like in match mode. Actually you shouldn't. You should use practice to try new stuff and experiment. But in match you want to wait at least for some mastery in practice before using a new technique and incorporate new things progressively, especially for important matches]

Yes but after practising backhand loops for the past 5 years I should be using it more and not less compared to 3 months ago. Again mental issue.

Advanced players never make an easy mistake. They are able to do a topspin whatever ball is coming, whatever adjustment they need to make. Their shot is not necessarily faster than yours, usually more spinny (but not always) than yours. But they will not miss. WCQ doesn't always win 3-0 11-4 each game. Most of his opponents can do great points against him. But he prevails because of his consistency.

Never is a big overstatement. Everyone makes easy mistakes and you see it in pro play aswell.
Again we are talking about consistency here not the ability or specific technique that I can't do.

But the real reason why we amateurs perform less good in matches, is less about pressure and more about lack of familiarity. Its easy to play good in training because you play every week with the same guy, you are used to his ball quality and placement, and serves... you play a different guy, its a total different story. People with good technique can adapt to any player, any ball. If you train with only the 3 same persons (worse with same kind of style) , its normal to struggle against unknown players.

This is where I have to disagree with you the most. I will only talk about myself here. I feel alot underpressure. And it's not even about the incoming speed most of the time especially in the very beginning like serve receive. You can see he serves a somewhat slowish longish backspin ball into my bh and I just don't loop it 90% of the time. Do you think I rarely practised against that serve or I am surprised that I see a backspin serve to my bh? No. When I trained with multiball or with a player who has a good backhand push I looped much heavier backspins or faster backspins.

That trainingsmatch I showed you it was against a player who I trained once or twice in the span of a year or two even. So no I am not even that familiar with his playstyle I just know mentally I can beat him and also because I beat him before. If we played like 5 matches I won 3 times. Whereas against the player I just played a few days ago I never beat him. It's a different kind of mental pressure. And I played him more often than the dude in training (2x in league > 1x vs the other one in training only lol)

So people here are not saying you can't play. If you're happy with your technique that you show in your videos then its all fine but it would mean you're happy of your rating and it looks like you're not really happy about your rating so...

Just tell me have you watched that match even? If thats your conclusion then I don't know..

Hence the focus on consistency. Because its difficult to isolate a single issue in a shot. Practice against all type of balls. short, long, topspin, backspin. when your moving from right or left, or from behind or from the table. and consistent is not just % of ball on the table but precision of placement, quality, and also stability of body , recovery.

I know you make it sound as if I only train vs one type of ball. Anyway you pointed out a good thing I wanted to learn more about. Which is if it's better to mix many different balls in 1 training session or focus on lets say only 2 different type of balls. Eg. Serve receive only against 2 different serves but practice the same return over and over.
I asked chatgpt and it said

1. Motor learning works best through repetition with minimal variation​

• The brain learns movements most efficiently when the same movement pattern is repeated consistently.
• Minor variations are introduced gradually, so neural pathways consolidate the skill.
• Example in table tennis: Practicing the reception of a short backspin serve exactly the same way before adding different types of serves.
• Benefit: Your body automates the movement, reducing conscious effort and improving consistency.

---

2. Too much freedom → brain shifts to reactive rather than anticipatory mode​

• If training includes too many unpredictable variations, the brain focuses on reacting after the ball is hit, instead of anticipating.
• Consequence: You are always one step behind, often retreating instead of controlling the rally.
• Goal: Anticipation, not just reflexive reaction.

---

3. Read early rather than run faster​

• Proper anticipation means:
  • Position your body early
  • Analyze the ball flight before it reaches the table
  • Keep your Racket-Hand movement short and efficient
• Result: You don’t rely on sheer speed, but actively control the ball, instead of passively chasing it.

Since I fail with both parts currently (need more irregular drills) but also need more practise to overcome my fear in match so I will use that stroke I am a bit on the middle ground.

 

[Zezima]

We are focused on slightly different things even if we are trying to get to the same place. I am just pointing out that his swing is not consistently able to generate speed over short distances and he often follows through incorrectly because of that, it will not be confident when he plays against faster players. Now this can be an athletic thing or a technique thing. My point is that in this case it is a technique thing and nothing he has posted really changes that assessment. That he wants to take it personally is his prerogative and dont get me wrong, if he doesnt want advice that is fair. I don't want much advice either because my body is unable to do the things I want to do despite my pushing it so I am just trying my hardest to maintain.and reduce injuries. But if he wants to improve his swing confidence. IMHO, given his limitations, he needs to improve his understanding of whip mechanics, where he starts his racket, and his follow through needs to wrap the ball as well

Again, everyone does this a little differently. But I wouldn't focus on practicing his current backhand to use it in marches more, I would focus on improving his acceleration so that he doesn't feel swinging at the ball quickly to match the backspin on the ball is difficult.

You are free to explain the part about making the stroke more consistent.

But you make it sound as if each bh stroke should have the same follow through and everything. Even someone like FZD has a weird follow through all the way up and to the right. But whats more important is the contact.

So if you have helpful tips about the contactpoint making it more consistent sure give it to me. But in a match you can't expect me to always whip it fast. But I do agree that I have to stop doing these careful slow brushing motions. But even if we want to talk about that part I prefer to do it with a timestamp and then another example of how it should be done correctly. That would be more helpful than typing in words.

After the first 2 there are some good fast bh topspins I did. Technique is there. Consistency can be improved always and I am working on it. And we both agree I don't ever loop like this in the match. Atleast not this fast.

Also another point I want to talk about is. During the multiball I am collecting lots of data subconsciously. So I am trying to fix it or change my stroke for the next ball / atleast try something different. When it's matchday we have only 30min to warmup. Since we are 3 players only we swap so everyone gets 20min with everyone. And then I have to wait for the match like 20-30min so I am "cold" again we do 2min warmup with my opponent just basic fh and bh. To get to my point I know noone here can change that fact but this really hurts my potential. I always wish I had a multiball session for 15min after 10min normal warmup covering all strokes without the fear of losing points and also warming up on matchday with a single ball if you do a mistake you can go collect it makes it still worse during warmup.. it's just a little rant.

 

[NextLevel]

You are free to explain the part about making the stroke more consistent.

But you make it sound as if each bh stroke should have the same follow through and everything. Even someone like FZD has a weird follow through all the way up and to the right. But whats more important is the contact.

So if you have helpful tips about the contactpoint making it more consistent sure give it to me. But in a match you can't expect me to always whip it fast. But I do agree that I have to stop doing these careful slow brushing motions. But even if we want to talk about that part I prefer to do it with a timestamp and then another example of how it should be done correctly. That would be more helpful than typing in words.

After the first 2 there are some good fast bh topspins I did. Technique is there. Consistency can be improved always and I am working on it. And we both agree I don't ever loop like this in the match. Atleast not this fast.

Also another point I want to talk about is. During the multiball I am collecting lots of data subconsciously. So I am trying to fix it or change my stroke for the next ball / atleast try something different. When it's matchday we have only 30min to warmup. Since we are 3 players only we swap so everyone gets 20min with everyone. And then I have to wait for the match like 20-30min so I am "cold" again we do 2min warmup with my opponent just basic fh and bh. To get to my point I know noone here can change that fact but this really hurts my potential. I always wish I had a multiball session for 15min after 10min normal warmup covering all strokes without the fear of losing points and also warming up on matchday with a single ball if you do a mistake you can go collect it makes it still worse during warmup.. it's just a little rant.

A lot of stuff is not quite right in this video from my perspective, starting with the nature of the feed and the unfocused nature of the exercises and the technical focus executing them, but since you believe you already have effective technique and that all you need to do is express it in matches on both forehand and backhand, I will let you do that then and we can review after you are done implementing the desired changes and seeing how they work for you. At least the good players you train with will give you their own input. Good luck!

 

[SilhouetteD]

You are making technical mistakes on your BH.



2:11 look at your swing preparation, you drop your hand and wrist below the table. This is a backspin loop preparation.



At 2:12 look at your follow through, your elbow is facing down. This is a backhand topspin follow through. BH loop follow through never finishes with the elbow pointing down.

Back hand loop preparation + Backhand topspin follow through = Shot with weak spin and power.

This video should help.

@Zezima

 

[banbekas]

Oh I thought you were talking about my match against my opp in league.

I repeat myself but I so far I didn't have much chance to train with someone with a good fh topspin. The ones against 1000-1200 I can counter. It is still a shot I never feel confident no.matter if I have a 90% hit rate. It just always feels super risky emotional wise.

Well, it'd be hard to improve then if you are too afraid to take risks.

 

[Der_Echte]

And if you do that stroke too slow you eat the incoming spin and the ball flys uncontrolled still. Maybe you have a better example you can show what you mean by guiding it back slowly

Hi @Zezima I have previously responded here and also on your youtube channel before...

If you want to counter an incoming topspin ball some energy coming at you, (spin, speed or both) simply loosen your hand, allow ball to come to you... use a TINY forward stroke with a LOOSE grip on bat... ball will automatisch go back as light topspin with very high percentage of landing.

LATER... I mean LATER... can I say LATER enough ???? You get the instinctive timing of ball deep into your strike zone... then, and only then, can you make increasingly STRONGER responses to that ball... and you get rewarded with consistency... if you can orient bat to make GOOD enough placement.... then that is good enough quality response and you often experience a winning return WITHOUT trying to set a national record for discus record setting attempt of a backswing.

Cheers.

 

[Der_Echte]

@Zezima you are currently where I was a few years ago in this area... it can be greatly improved.

You need the timing of ball to strike zone... c=that can be both easy and difficult.

 

[Der_Echte]

We are focused on slightly different things even if we are trying to get to the same place. I am just pointing out that his swing is not consistently able to generate speed over short distances and he often follows through incorrectly because of that, it will not be confident when he plays against faster players. Now this can be an athletic thing or a technique thing. My point is that in this case it is a technique thing and nothing he has posted really changes that assessment. That he wants to take it personally is his prerogative and dont get me wrong, if he doesnt want advice that is fair. I don't want much advice either because my body is unable to do the things I want to do despite my pushing it so I am just trying my hardest to maintain.and reduce injuries. But if he wants to improve his swing confidence. IMHO, given his limitations, he needs to improve his understanding of whip mechanics, where he starts his racket, and his follow through needs to wrap the ball as well

Again, everyone does this a little differently. But I wouldn't focus on practicing his current backhand to use it in marches more, I would focus on improving his acceleration so that he doesn't feel swinging at the ball quickly to match the backspin on the ball is difficult.

[Quote=Dude who Gets it} IMHO, given his limitations, he needs to improve his understanding of whip mechanics, where he starts his racket, and his follow through needs to wrap the ball as well [/Quote}

NL just laid it out in the simplest terms possible.

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

• Technique = knowing how to perform the skill correctly.
• Consistency = being able to perform it correctly repeatedly.

A more accurate statement would be:
“Technique is the foundation for consistency.”
When someone tells me I can't loop hard or I can't do fast hard bh topspins I will simply disagree every single time.

well it may be just semantics, but i don't agree.

I'll give you 2 different analogies.
1) one comes from trading. One makes a great trade and makes plenty of $$$$. Turns out he was lucky, not skill, will trade again make mistakes and get REKT
2) one is a musician. will practice his favorite tune for months or years. will get rather good at executing it. but poor at executing any other tune.

In TT, even the lowest player can execute a smash on a high ball. Then all intermediate players can loop hard or do fast bh topspin. But they can't do it consistently. Because unknowingly to us, we know how to do it only in some situations: when the ball has a spin in a certain range and the ball comes to us in some specific area or with a certain range of speed. When we don't see the incoming ball or it is a slightly different situation, adjustment is needed. footwork, body position, bat angle etc...

When you will become a better player in 2-3 months or years or whatever, your fast bh topspin will look different than yours today. and you'll have learnt many more things in the process of getting better. looking at ball, hitting it a more precise timing or angle, using better your legs, better coordination, using your fingers etc... so many details. You'll do it like a robot, if your partner is able to block at the same place your ball will always land exactly at the same place too. Basically your fast BH topspin is technique is level 2 or 3. it can go up to level 100 like LIN Shidong.

For me consistency is the measurable way of evaluating technique. technique/consistency is undissociable.
you are not performing the technique correctly if its not consistent. It was just an accident that the ball was good. (accident may be that the ball fit your technique and didnt expose its weakness)