Overall Technique focus

[MORTtheORT]

Oh ok interesting I had that info in my mind that I should never start backswinging before I dont know where the ball is going. That's why I had the blade in front.

But whar you do makes sense and I am pretty sure I do it aswell when I train with a human partner actually I will try to film myself. Maybe I am not doing it this extreme but still..
But isn't it also bad if I was preparing too early? Letss say we play 2fh 2bh. And at the switch I go from fh to bh lets say but without the ball has been played. I am not selfaware enough to be able to tell with confidence if I prepare my stroke before the ball has been played or not.

These are all things having an outstander watching and reminding me would be helpful

It is a development stage learning to anticipate and limit your opponents options and accepting they a good shot from your opponent is a good shot. At the moment, you can't read them and are letting your opponent control the tempo and the game. Little things like shoulder position, balance etc tell you where the ball is more likely to go, plus the spin and power you have put on the ball. You will learn this by trying to predict, not always just waiting.

A great lesson I got from a top national coach (Chinese trained coach) was about this playing with intention and arriving in position. Your legs and body must move as one as you have made the decision to move so arrive ready to pull the trigger. Do you understand this, you have already decided to move so why are you waiting to move your upper body and arm?

Another good lesson was about worrying about my opponent playing down the line when I am committed to hitting hard across the table. He explained, if your opponent is able to hit down the line, your ball was too slow. These two things dramatically changed my game.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Its a combination of having slow recovery after a shot, being able to watch the ball longer and deciding for the right swingpath, and I am mostly further back and get a shorter ball instead and in matches slow anticipation.

In trainingsmatches I do remember hitting earlier timings not always but atleast some. Because there I know what spin they are capable of producing where they gonna place so anticipation is better to react early etc. And because I am stronger and dont feel the pressure I play closer to the table. And since 2nd topspin is mostly not needed I go back way less than in matches.

You are definitely watching your own shot. But don't worry, this is normal while you are still developing confidence in your shot. You will need to develop past this and be more focused on anticipation of the ball coming back. And just relax a bit. Don't worry if your shot hits the net, just play the shot and get the feel of the new setup.

I think you are over thinking it too much, which is making you tense which slows everything down. This is also completely understandable as it happens to us all while working on things.

Spin watching is an interesting one. I only focus on if the ball is top or backspin. Side spin doesn't mean much as I am confident that I will play through whatever side spin they put on the ball. I just need to know if I need to help lift the ball or not. Side spin to me only matters in the push game short, low serves.

 

[Zezima]

Pros and half decent armatures go mid distance because the ball is carrying that far and player open up with power and speed. They are not going there for the sake of it, it is because they have a high level opponent who is hitting the ball with power and lots of spin energy to kick the ball. You are not playing against this level of players. You are stuck in the rubbish zone of players and need to learn how to put this type of player away.

You have rubbers now that will work in short uncomfortable shots now. Your rubber can block with speed and spin now. You need to relax, make lots of errors learning that the shot is there. Just go "stuff it" and play the shot. Don't worry about perfect form,.what spin is on the ball, just relax and swing to win.

I posted my match videos from yesterday in the other thread. Should I take the same approach as the girl in the 2nd video?

 

[Zezima]

It is a development stage learning to anticipate and limit your opponents options and accepting they a good shot from your opponent is a good shot. At the moment, you can't read them and are letting your opponent control the tempo and the game. Little things like shoulder position, balance etc tell you where the ball is more likely to go, plus the spin and power you have put on the ball. You will learn this by trying to predict, not always just waiting.

A great lesson I got from a top national coach (Chinese trained coach) was about this playing with intention and arriving in position. Your legs and body must move as one as you have made the decision to move so arrive ready to pull the trigger. Do you understand this, you have already decided to move so why are you waiting to move your upper body and arm?

Another good lesson was about worrying about my opponent playing down the line when I am committed to hitting hard across the table. He explained, if your opponent is able to hit down the line, your ball was too slow. These two things dramatically changed my game.

that last paragraph is also huge. Because I don't have umph in my shots I defaulted to slowy spinny shots in the past and this is my habit now. Even yesterday I hit some shots parallel to their fh some were too slow even though it would have been ok if it was faster and maybe even spinnier.

So your point is just move more and while moving also backswing immediately. This is a hard task. I don't know how I could slowly achieve that over time.

 

[Zezima]

You are definitely watching your own shot. But don't worry, this is normal while you are still developing confidence in your shot. You will need to develop past this and be more focused on anticipation of the ball coming back. And just relax a bit. Don't worry if your shot hits the net, just play the shot and get the feel of the new setup.

I think you are over thinking it too much, which is making you tense which slows everything down. This is also completely understandable as it happens to us all while working on things.

Spin watching is an interesting one. I only focus on if the ball is top or backspin. Side spin doesn't mean much as I am confident that I will play through whatever side spin they put on the ball. I just need to know if I need to help lift the ball or not. Side spin to me only matters in the push game short, low serves.

When I miss my loop against sidespin I feel like I haven't gather any information. I still don't know how much backspin or topspin or if it was puresidespin. I also immediately forget how far I looped upwards. and if the opponent can vary the amount of spin aswell it's gg for me. This is why I am working on a safe first ball loop. Yesterday it worked well but still gotta work on this one more.

during matchplay I don't think about my technique the biggest thing that tenses me the most is me wanting to end the rally with that shot. Especially against a block. Against backspin I seem to be more calm and focus on spinning the ball.

 

[Zezima]

I like how you are focussing on every single detail possible except for the 1 I told you to focus on... Ugh.

Forget the racket angle, forget the backswing. Focus on the leg pushing action as is demonstrated in the video at 3:37. Watch how Fang demonstrates that the leg push action is like a single-leg squat. You push yourself up from the ground. As long as you do this correctly, there is no such thing as energy leakage. At least not for the lifting action. Once you get this down you can focus more about directing it foreward. But for now it all about lifting.

And yes you did hit some of the backspin balls out. But thats not because you did it right. You just found the somewhat right racket angle to compensate for your lack of engaging your legs to do the lifting work. Which is a very bad habbit that lots of 'robot players' adopt. They just find the right angle and start landing their shots that way. Yet in a match they miss every topspin because every ball has a different length/speed/spin.

you mean for the fh at 6:11?

Also on the bh FZD is squatting down but not using any legs upwards.
Anyway on the bh I can lift the ball easily. Fh looks more problematic because I just go horizontally up only. I would like to learn to loop forwards aswell. I just don't see the right timing. I think just 0,1ms before contacting the ball he seems to push with the legs. And is it more like a push upwards and forwards direction or just upwards and hips rotating and weight shifting forwards only?

 

[RefereeNumber2]

you mean for the fh at 6:11?

Also on the bh FZD is squatting down but not using any legs upwards.
Anyway on the bh I can lift the ball easily. Fh looks more problematic because I just go horizontally up only. I would like to learn to loop forwards aswell. I just don't see the right timing. I think just 0,1ms before contacting the ball he seems to push with the legs. And is it more like a push upwards and forwards direction or just upwards and hips rotating and weight shifting forwards only?

You have a strong tendency to over-think and over-analyze things. With all of those thoughts and ideas in your head, it's simply impossible to relax and actually play well. My honest advice is, the next time you go to practice or play, try to forget about any ideas of what you think you're supposed to do. Just relax and hit the ball. Run around and work up a sweat. Pay attention to the feeling. Notice how quickly and fluidly you can actually move and generate power. In all of these videos you're using only maybe 10% of your actual physical abilities. Your own body's stiffness and tension is literally holding you back, and you have to fight against it every time you try to hit the ball.

As an aside, FZD absolutely is using his legs to push upwards; the distance he's pushing just isn't very large. This is one reason why I wouldn't advise anyone to try to copy another player's motions before you actually understand the feeling and acceleration involved. There are a lot of ways to superficially replicate a motion "path" with different muscles. If you don't have a clear sense of the speed and acceleration, just looking at the motion from the outside tells you very little about the combinations of muscle relaxation/contraction and that actually generate the action. You need to first develop your own feeling for how this movement works, then your mirror neurons will help you process footage of other peoples' movements.

 

[banbekas]

It is a development stage learning to anticipate and limit your opponents options and accepting they a good shot from your opponent is a good shot. At the moment, you can't read them and are letting your opponent control the tempo and the game. Little things like shoulder position, balance etc tell you where the ball is more likely to go, plus the spin and power you have put on the ball. You will learn this by trying to predict, not always just waiting.

These are two contradictory ideas. How can you predict by scrutinizing shoulder position, balance, and so on? That’s reactive. You don’t get to see such small body movements clearly enough to predict where the ball will go. Often, a slight tweak of the wrist is enough to change the ball’s direction.

Prediction depends more on your understanding of spin and your brain’s capacity for pattern recognition. Pros are especially good at this. They quickly notice your playing patterns and punish you for them.

As for OP, I'm not going to bother with all these movement tweaks or body mechanics mumbo jumbo. If you want to improve quality of your shot, dig deeper into the sponge and don't hit with your blade is open. Close the angle more. Explode more.

Your backhand is way too brushy. Dig into the sponge. Explode more at the moment of contact.

 

[Zezima]

You have a strong tendency to over-think and over-analyze things. With all of those thoughts and ideas in your head, it's simply impossible to relax and actually play well. My honest advice is, the next time you go to practice or play, try to forget about any ideas of what you think you're supposed to do. Just relax and hit the ball. Run around and work up a sweat. Pay attention to the feeling. Notice how quickly and fluidly you can actually move and generate power. In all of these videos you're using only maybe 10% of your actual physical abilities. Your own body's stiffness and tension is literally holding you back, and you have to fight against it every time you try to hit the ball.

As an aside, FZD absolutely is using his legs to push upwards; the distance he's pushing just isn't very large. This is one reason why I wouldn't advise anyone to try to copy another player's motions before you actually understand the feeling and acceleration involved. There are a lot of ways to superficially replicate a motion "path" with different muscles. If you don't have a clear sense of the speed and acceleration, just looking at the motion from the outside tells you very little about the combinations of muscle relaxation/contraction and that actually generate the action. You need to first develop your own feeling for how this movement works, then your mirror neurons will help you process footage of other peoples' movements.

Well I wasn't really going hard on analyzing before 4-5months ago. And this was the outcome terrible technique late hitting going hard from closed to open arm pulling back on backswing etc..
And now I overthink after the game yes but I need this. I learned the theory a lot it just that the feedback loop is very slow since I don't see how my stroke looks from the outside perspective etc. And when I am in the "moment" I don't think about my racket angle or anything resulting in me using my.old technique when trying to go "hard"

Like in yesterdays tournament. I went 3-3 again. Only peaked in the videos and I do the same shiet forehand topspin whenever I hit it hard. I didn't film the warmup but in the warmup my topspin is exactly how I want it to be. I was even more relaxed than in the training videos I posted. I was even suprised the ball was still landing on the other side that I froze watching after the ball.

"Your own body's stiffness and tension is literally holding you back,"
This was the summary of yesterdays games. Not knowing my opp not knowing what shots they are capable of hitting. Getting surprised and then mental overloaded so much I was rushing into topspins. And my brain thinks if I accelerate when I am relaxed and lose I wont have time to hit the ball and will miss it, like it doesnt even think it knows and defaults to my old closed racket technique where the timing has to be perfect to make the shot work.

I really don't know what to do now. I dont even care I lost 3 games. The 2 wins were vs 300ttr lower opp even though they played good and the 3rd was the one closer to my current ttr only 50ttr lower. And I played the best against him. I was still not 100% relaxed but atleast I was relaxed 30% of the shots I decided to go for. But that number is still way too low.

I personally think I have to multiball way more or roboter and play as many games against slightly worse players than me and only focusing on looping with less power like 70% but relax before the shots. By wanting more than that I get tense and do the old technique so I have to remind myself to hit less power so my form doesnt break into the old habit.

 

[Zezima]

You have a strong tendency to over-think and over-analyze things. With all of those thoughts and ideas in your head, it's simply impossible to relax and actually play well. My honest advice is, the next time you go to practice or play, try to forget about any ideas of what you think you're supposed to do. Just relax and hit the ball. Run around and work up a sweat. Pay attention to the feeling. Notice how quickly and fluidly you can actually move and generate power. In all of these videos you're using only maybe 10% of your actual physical abilities. Your own body's stiffness and tension is literally holding you back, and you have to fight against it every time you try to hit the ball.

As an aside, FZD absolutely is using his legs to push upwards; the distance he's pushing just isn't very large. This is one reason why I wouldn't advise anyone to try to copy another player's motions before you actually understand the feeling and acceleration involved. There are a lot of ways to superficially replicate a motion "path" with different muscles. If you don't have a clear sense of the speed and acceleration, just looking at the motion from the outside tells you very little about the combinations of muscle relaxation/contraction and that actually generate the action. You need to first develop your own feeling for how this movement works, then your mirror neurons will help you process footage of other peoples' movements.

I also agree it feels like I am so so so close of unlocking the next stage with the topspin but I gatekeep myself. I miss just a few puzzle piece. Like so much is building in me up that I know once I overcome this (also mentally) I know I will make 300TTR jump atleast. Not that I care about points that much but playing level wise.

 

[vossi39]

I think you should be realistic with your expectations. 300TTR points is a lot. With your opponent having 150 TTR points more than you, your win propability is less then 10%, with 200TTR it is already less than 5%. So reaching +300TTR is taking a long time, since even if you have the capabilities you will still not win every match and will have some losses against underrated players that also have not reached their true TTR.

I play TT since ages (a lot older than you though) and through regular league matches and a couple of tournaments (not races) it took more than 15 years to crawl from 1250 at the beginning of TTR to now close to 1500. And 300TTR from 1200 - 1500TTR are easier to reach than going from 1400 - 1700. That is a complete different story. To reach 1500TTR it is enough to have a couple of strengths (good serves, stable BH or FH topspin, good block / smashing). But starting with 1500 TTR you need all of this + no real weakness and way more tactic and game plan against different play styles (pips, anti, blockers, choppers etc).

 

[MORTtheORT]

These are two contradictory ideas. How can you predict by scrutinizing shoulder position, balance, and so on? That’s reactive. You don’t get to see such small body movements clearly enough to predict where the ball will go. Often, a slight tweak of the wrist is enough to change the ball’s direction.

Prediction depends more on your understanding of spin and your brain’s capacity for pattern recognition. Pros are especially good at this. They quickly notice your playing patterns and punish you for them.

As for OP, I'm not going to bother with all these movement tweaks or body mechanics mumbo jumbo. If you want to improve quality of your shot, dig deeper into the sponge and don't hit with your blade is open. Close the angle more. Explode more.

Your backhand is way too brushy. Dig into the sponge. Explode more at the moment of contact.

"A prediction is a statement, guess, or forecast about a future event, trend, or outcome, often based on evidence, experience, or scientific modeling" If you are using data such as shoulder position, spin etc before the shot has been made...then you are predicting....and we are talking about his movement in the drill...as it is a drill of moving to hit the ball and the OP issue of feeling late to the ball and the highlighted pictures that he is leaning back and taking the ball late.

 

[Zezima]

I think you should be realistic with your expectations. 300TTR points is a lot. With your opponent having 150 TTR points more than you, your win propability is less then 10%, with 200TTR it is already less than 5%. So reaching +300TTR is taking a long time, since even if you have the capabilities you will still not win every match and will have some losses against underrated players that also have not reached their true TTR.

I play TT since ages (a lot older than you though) and through regular league matches and a couple of tournaments (not races) it took more than 15 years to crawl from 1250 at the beginning of TTR to now close to 1500. And 300TTR from 1200 - 1500TTR are easier to reach than going from 1400 - 1700. That is a complete different story. To reach 1500TTR it is enough to have a couple of strengths (good serves, stable BH or FH topspin, good block / smashing). But starting with 1500 TTR you need all of this + no real weakness and way more tactic and game plan against different play styles (pips, anti, blockers, choppers etc).

I know what you mean but I played against a few 1680s already. And I am confident in what I am talking about. My rating is still not true to my level according to my opponents who faced me so far. They say I should be way higher. Even yesterday I lost to a 1700 and he said I should be atleast 1600 but I heard this from many people now. It also matches my experience in the trainingscamp when I played with other 1700 even 1800. Anyway I am not here to convince you or the others. I set a goal and to me its realistic as long as I keep working on these things I mentioned.

 

[Zezima]

Also I did some shadowstroke practise to understand how I come doing this closed to open racket angle.

I am still inexperienced when it comes to changing technique but I think it will help me understand better to do the right one if I make myself clear why this old one is bad and what happens mechanically to my body when it happens.

Basically what happens is I am rotating not only my hips (so far so good) but also I rotate my arm counterclockwise (looking from my perspective) In other words I am closing the racket angle. I kept thinking about this part and it seems like this is my way of "storing" energy or building tension?.


Here is when I do it fast without thinking. The only thing I am worried is about the strokepath which is hard to simulate without a ball.

in comparison to 3 months ago:

I definitely like the one I just did way more.

Tomorrow is another Race cup where I have to drive 2h in the morning. Will play in 2 with a 3h break inbetween. My goal is just this stupid fh that it somehow looks like my shadow practise from today. If I see myself doing old technique I will just remind myself to lower the power and just swing freely like I did just now. If I don't tense then the racket angle doesn't seem to close.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

View attachment IMG_5201.mov
View attachment ebf1e43f-75be-4277-b20a-337b785ed2a8.mp4
Yes! Yes! Yes!
This is the exact mechanics I have trying to say about modern bh. You half squat then jerk upwards as you brush the ball forward. Beautiful beautiful technique executed by Mister Wang & Calderano.

 

[BackhandSteve]

Hello friend!

Zhang Jike said in a video, "I cannot teach technique, I can only teach you how to hit the ball". If you go to a professional match and watch. You will see, everyone plays different.

Advice:

BH: Look up Kreanga on youtube. Good technique.
FH: Like what everyone else says above = Late on the ball and use more forearm. Show some GRR. Never put weight on your heels if you can. Then you will lose reaction time.

 

[vossi39]

Your backswing has improved and became much loser than before, which is perfect. At least in shadow practise, there is a visible snap with your forearm, which is also good. Missing from text book is the sequence of your moves. You are still swinging arm first. The foreward swing should be initiated from your hip, followed by your upper arm (seeking the ball, mainly adjustment the height, to get to right plane of the swing), followed by the underarm and wrist snap (stopping motion at impact) and the follow through.
I also struggle with this sequence in matches. Shadow practice works fine, as soon as I need to add footwork, I tend to swing with my arm first, similar to your movement.

I assume the shadow practice is topspin vs. block.

 

[latej]

View attachment 40565
This is the exact mechanics I have trying to say about modern bh. You half squat then jerk upwards as you brush the ball forward. Beautiful beautiful technique executed by Mister Wang & Calderano.

Pure beauty indeed. But if you look closely it's not just "upwards", there is still loading of the right leg (as left-hander) and waist rotation. @Lula - related to your thread about BH - making sure you feel it on both sides is worth it, imo...

 

[Lula]

Pure beauty indeed. But if you look closely it's not just "upwards", there is still loading of the right leg (as left-hander) and waist rotation. @Lula - related to your thread about BH - making sure you feel it on both sides is worth it, imo...

Thanks. I find it impressive how he finds the time to use the body. I assume they can do more weight transfer and hip rotation if it goes slower and maybe more just push if it comes fast? Probably are good at having vision on opponent and anticipate.

 

[latej]

Thanks. I find it impressive how he finds the time to use the body.

Yes, indeed. They do in all situation, if they can't load and push the leg to get energy (because zero time), they will at least go down with the body to get some energy for the arm moving up (you know body goes down so arm can go up) ;-) How to achieve that, I've asked myself that question couple of times... I think that a kind of ingrained lazyness helps - we can call it a "talent", but I like to call it lazyness more ;-) So that would be an example of WCQ, imho he is not that muscularly gifted, but he can transfer energy - so his ungiftedness in that area actually makes/forces the technique more and so pure that we all admire it ;-) Lazyness is good ;-) And of course the endless repetition - that may also force you to save energy - even if you are not born lazy (speak "talented", LOL).

I assume they can do more weight transfer and hip rotation if it goes slower and maybe more just push if it comes fast?

Yes, depending on time there will be situations, where there is simply "no time", and there is this "range" of how much you can use the rotation. And I think, you are already aware of it... It's like you can be aware of it afterwards, like post-action, not sure how to say it... But you need to feel it, so that you can recognize: here it was more, here it was less...

Probably are good at having vision on opponent and anticipate.

Well sure, anticipation is needed. I try to look at the opponent as soon as I serve, almost during serve... But still at the moment I see it as 2 dimensions, kind of independent... You know - technique (kind of "body" dimension) and anticipation (kind of "mind" dimension)... But it's too course grained, it overlaps... ;-)