My Butterfly Dignics 09C Review: Why I think that most amateur players should avoid it

[NextLevel]

Got to love a jaded moderator who just shows their true colours. More people like the OP please table tennis daily.

The H3 is used because it does not have a catapult effect, leading developing young players to play a full shot with weight transfer using good technique that returns consistency.

Hitting below the belt I see... not a problem. I would never tell you that you obviously didn't know something when the very point at issue is that from a beginner perspective, they are not that different, other than price.

I asked a few people who I trust who use both H3 and D09c whether they felt that using 09c vs H3 would significantly affect how they trained a player using them materials. They said no, but that it would be cheaper to get H3N. So You obviously feel differently. The price is a big issue and factors into the subconscious thinking of many people, But what I am struggling to understand is where this view that D09c has this massive catapult that makes it unsuitable for training amateurs while H3N is so linear that it is easy for all to use comes from. They are not the same rubber, but they are also not Jekyll and Hyde.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

The H3 is used because it does not have a catapult effect, leading developing young players to play a full shot with weight transfer using good technique that returns consistency.

Dang I wonder how players from countries where DHS isn't widely used manage to develop full shots with weight transfer then...

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Found this clip that pretty closely aligns to the common stance of Chinese professional players and coaches I've learned from (in regards to amateur players not involved in professional training systems, it is a different story for the aspiring pros).

(2:55) "This is what I've been researching, not blindly recommending Hurricane because it's popular. You don't have Ma Long's physique, Lin Gaoyuan's fast waist rotations for transitions...you don't have (CNT level) core strength, or coordinated core, so don't touch Hurricane, especially kids. Xu Xin is aging, even his physique struggles with Hurricane, you think you can handle Hurricane? I recommend foreign rubbers on both sides, you can try D09c, it's slightly tacky."

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

Dang I wonder how players from countries where DHS isn't widely used manage to develop full shots with weight transfer then...

Yup! Completely no weigh transfer, no power from the group concept. 100% arm muscle and overly rely on Boing boing effect of the MXP sponge!

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Yup! Completely no weigh transfer, no power from the group concept. 100% arm muscle and overly rely on Boing boing effect of the MXP sponge!

As we all know, Hugo, Quadri, Togami, A. Lebrun all learned on Hurricane 3...

 

[MORTtheORT]

Dang I wonder how players from countries where DHS isn't widely used manage to develop full shots with weight transfer then...

By using a different rubber....it is not recommended to use, not that you can't...but this concept seems to be difficult on this page.

 

[zeio]

It isn't unheard of to develop the FH with Chinese tacky rubbers, like Kristian Karlsson, who used it to improve his FH when he was 14-15.

 

[vvk1]

It isn't unheard of to develop the FH with Chinese tacky rubbers, like Kristian Karlsson, who used it to improve his FH when he was 14-15.

For what it's worth, my FH loop has improved dramatically after switching to H3 neo many years ago for completely unrelated reasons. Before the switch, I couldn't loop consistently at all, by any definition of "consistently". But it was H3s linearity and particularly somewhat unforgiving nature as compared to euro tensors (rewarding more or less correct technique and basically failing on anything deviating from it) that did the trick imo. I doubt a modern hybrid like C55 or 09c or k3 would have been as effective. Palio Thors certainly wasn't... 😂

 

[victormanriquey]

For what it's worth, my FH loop has improved dramatically after switching to H3 neo many years ago for completely unrelated reasons. Before the switch, I couldn't loop consistently at all, by any definition of "consistently". But it was H3s linearity and particularly somewhat unforgiving nature as compared to euro tensors (rewarding more or less correct technique and basically failing on anything deviating from it) that did the trick imo. I doubt a modern hybrid like C55 or 09c or k3 would have been as effective. Palio Thors certainly wasn't... 😂

Yes and this is also my personal experience (and the one of many people I have talked to and coach). It's not for everybody and people will always disagree, but if it works for you, then continue!

It isn't unheard of to develop the FH with Chinese tacky rubbers, like Kristian Karlsson, who used it to improve his FH when he was 14-15.

Agreed.

As we all know, Hugo, Quadri, Togami, A. Lebrun all learned on Hurricane 3...

It could explain why their results have always been worse than H3 players?

Found this clip that pretty closely aligns to the common stance of Chinese professional players and coaches I've learned from (in regards to amateur players not involved in professional training systems, it is a different story for the aspiring pros).

(2:55) "This is what I've been researching, not blindly recommending Hurricane because it's popular. You don't have Ma Long's physique, Lin Gaoyuan's fast waist rotations for transitions...you don't have (CNT level) core strength, or coordinated core, so don't touch Hurricane, especially kids. Xu Xin is aging, even his physique struggles with Hurricane, you think you can handle Hurricane? I recommend foreign rubbers on both sides, you can try D09c, it's slightly tacky."

I have never said it is easy to play with hurricanes, and overall, I advocate for hard tacky rubbers in my blogposts, not H3N only. In fact, im soon testing in depth about 10 hard tacky cheap rubbers that don't need boosting so I can give alternatives to people that are (hopefully) as good and cheaper and less hassle. Btw, I really like the BH learnings of this coach (you can see it in his pupil Lin Yun-Ju), but I prefer the FH framework of other coaches. Matter of details in taste But it does not surprise he says no hurricane, he was the trainer of a full butterfly player that doesnt use hurricane on FH.

I asked a few people who I trust who use both H3 and D09c whether they felt that using 09c vs H3 would significantly affect how they trained a player using them materials. They said no, but that it would be cheaper to get H3N. So You obviously feel differently. The price is a big issue and factors into the subconscious thinking of many people, But what I am struggling to understand is where this view that D09c has this massive catapult that makes it unsuitable for training amateurs while H3N is so linear that it is easy for all to use comes from. They are not the same rubber, but they are also not Jekyll and Hyde.

This is the point I will agree with you, they are not that different, and I have stated this also, I just don't like D09cs non-linearity at top speed (whether attacking or defending), the really high throw and the short game, but this is for my FH. On BH, it's a good rubber, just terribly expensive.

Btw, all this said, whether you are in one camp or the other, let's all agree that we are having fun going back and forth with this topic in the weekend Nothing like a good old brawl on TT gear! The world is full of enough bad things at the moment so a bit of bumping heads lightens up the mood, at least for me. I'm enjoying it, maybe it sounds odd, but I really enjoy these chats

 

[Matteones]

I feel like everyone's going very deep into the rabbit hole.

I would not recommend any hard rubber (over 47 degrees ESN scale let's say) for beginners (first 1-2 years of playing), neither h3 nor D09C.
Possibly a softer version of H3 and only for kids who train extensively, but honestly, here in Europe or in the US, not even them: they don't train 8 hours a day like in China and they don't have the same system of coaches supporting them (I'm speaking in general here, not specific cases).

I would not recommend any hard rubber for beginners - intermediate who can't get coaching.
I would simply not recommend any very hard rubber until you get to a level in which you start realizing - not only on an intellectual level, until your body feels the difference (maybe 1700 - 1800 USATT?), after which just use what you think is better for you or even better what a coach or a senior player who knows you well advices.

I think medium rubbers are the way to go (there are tons on which to choose from) up until that intermediate - advance level (again 1800 - 1900 USATT?). If you never reach that level (plenty of people don't for many reasons) and you need motivation to keep playing and EJing gives you motivation to do it, please do.

 

[Tyce]

Using Muscle Pong as an argument against K3 Pro is interesting. Josh mentions in the video he's playing league with it while he's had less than a week of training with it.
That really doesn't say anything about the rubber, it says something about not getting used to it before matches.

Sidenote, Josh has been on a real EJ bender lately, switching blades and rubbers multiple times in a couple of months. I honestly wouldn't take equipment advice from any of his videos in the last 6 months.

 

[Gozo Zyreruna]

is joshmak = muscle pong?

 

[NextLevel]

Using Muscle Pong as an argument against K3 Pro is interesting. Josh mentions in the video he's playing league with it while he's had less than a week of training with it.
That really doesn't say anything about the rubber, it says something about not getting used to it before matches.

Sidenote, Josh has been on a real EJ bender lately, switching blades and rubbers multiple times in a couple of months. I honestly wouldn't take equipment advice from any of his videos in the last 6 months.

And a story about a guy who used 09c for two days and got rid of it says something about 09c? A story about another guy who has played for years with all wood blades and traditional rubbers and then switches to carbon blade plus 09c does say a lot about 09c?

I guess we have different standards for what we call data when it applies to 09c and K3 (not pro as far as I know). But my point is clear, the rubber specifics don't matter.

 

[Tyce]

And a story about a guy who used 09c for two days and got rid of it says something about 09c? A story about another guy who has played for years with all wood blades and traditional rubbers and then switches to carbon blade plus 09c does say a lot about 09c?

I guess we have different standards for what we call data when it applies to 09c and K3 (not pro as far as I know). But my point is clear, the rubber specifics don't matter.

Not sure why you're trying to drown an informational post in whataboutisms. I'm just adding nuance to the Muscle Pong argument.

 

[NextLevel]

Not sure why you're trying to drown an informational post in whataboutisms. I'm just adding nuance to the Muscle Pong argument.

The musclepong case was based on Victor's case 2. Did you add nuance to Victor's case 2?

My point is simple - using anyone's two day opinion of a rubber as strong evidence of its nature is not a good argument. I am not sure why you are pointing out the limitations of what I wrote when I used it to point out the limitations of what @victormanriquey was arguing. The issues with hard sponge rubber are real and that should have been the primary theme.

 

[Tyce]

Yes, I added the nuance that this video was not a good source to base judgment of hybrid K3 on.

But you probably know that. So I don't understand what's happening.

 

[joshmak10]

is joshmak = muscle pong?

Lol nah. Im in Canada

 

[victormanriquey]

My point is simple - using anyone's two day opinion of a rubber as strong evidence of its nature is not a good argument.

I'd argue that one always knows his/her feeling best, and personally, even though when I test something I try to do it thoroughly, if I really dislike a blade or rubber in my first 2 sessions, its unlikely to change my mind wildly after 1 month, it gets better for sure but I know how to judge gear and most people do as well. They may not know how to put it to words but they can 'feel' something is off.

I.e. If the throw angle or bounce or feeling or tackiness (etc) is really not what the player prefers or likes, then often that first instinct is correct. For example I tried MXP once a long time ago, it was really not my taste, everytime I try again is the same, probably one of my least favourite rubbers. Doesn't mean that others dont love it, that's fine, but I knew almost instantly this is not for me. I have the same on T05 btw, but overall I'm not a catapult guy

Ps. Also remember, the player of this story (E.) is almost a national player and has trained in china for 2 months before 8h a day when he went. He knows his stuff.

 

[NextLevel]

I'd argue that one always knows his/her feeling best, and personally, even though when I test something I try to do it thoroughly, if I really dislike a blade or rubber in my first 2 sessions, its unlikely to change my mind wildly after 1 month, it gets better for sure but I know how to judge gear and most people do as well. They may not know how to put it to words but they can 'feel' something is off.

I.e. If the throw angle or bounce or feeling or tackiness (etc) is really not what the player prefers or likes, then often that first instinct is correct. For example I tried MXP once a long time ago, it was really not my taste, everytime I try again is the same, probably one of my least favourite rubbers. Doesn't mean that others dont love it, that's fine, but I knew almost instantly this is not for me. I have the same on T05 btw, but overall I'm not a catapult guy

OK. I can counterexample this to death, but my main point is that this has very little to do with whether the rubber is good/great for a playing level, whether a objectively suitable for a player, how reasonable it is to expect a player to adapt to a rubber or whether a player would play better if he took the time to adapt to a rubber. We can make up our own minds.

 

[victormanriquey]

OK. I can counterexample this to death, but my main point is that this has very little to do with whether the rubber is good/great for a playing level, whether a objectively suitable for a player, how reasonable it is to expect a player to adapt to a rubber or whether a player would play better if he took the time to adapt to a rubber. We can make up our own minds.

I agree we have discussed all there was to discuss, and we can just agree that we have fundamental differences when it comes to TT equipment and that is totally fine and healthy.

I'll be reviewing more gear in the coming weeks (tacky and non tacky stuff and all in between) so I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunities to bump heads again in a polite, diverse and fun (this last bit is the important one) manner