My Butterfly Dignics 09C Review: Why I think that most amateur players should avoid it

[golden_son]

Yeah. But my counter to that is that I don't think admittedly improving players should be relying on the marginal effects of top end rubbers to get their standard results. That should be reserved for later stages in TT development in my humble opinion. Of course, it is my opinion.

I'm sort of beating a dead horse by saying "everybody's different" but while some talented and/or well-coached amateurs can surely pick up D09c and learn to use it to full effect I generally agree with this statement the most. It's easy to fall into the trap of hitting a plateau in your training and thinking equipment is the reason, and doing just what NL says here. There's a sort of false-positive reinforcement that comes with getting more spin/speed out of jumping to a higher-end rubber that can make a player overlook the negatives they're introducing to their game and stop focusing on the right technical improvement(s). I'm guilty of it myself, though I count it as a valuable—if costly—learning experience. I've also gone through the stumbles—and seen my training compatriots go through the stumbles—of coming to the first coaching session with rubber that is too technically demanding—often on a Viscaria—because they read about it online, dropped the cash, and beat their untrained ping-pong friends with the overwhelming speed and spin, ignoring the points they lost by misreading spin or overshooting the table; only to get absolutely humbled in simple drive practice with a coach.

I've tried D09c on a friend's racket just to see what it's like and while it certainly resulted in some "ooh, ahh 🤩" shots it also produced its fair share of duds (or rather, I did). I could tell it was forcing me to spend precious time thinking more about my stroke and racket angle and not just playing on instinct; and this was just free-hitting, not real training or match play. Perhaps this gives it a place as a [expensive] training rubber (similar to how H3 forces you to learn proper technique); but not a daily driver until one's match play catches up to their training. (I've honestly started to consider the merits of having an "aspirational" bat for training and a "safer" bat for match play, but that's another topic.)

(plus 20 other rubbers and 10 blades LOL)

I suddenly feel much less guilty about my EJ habits 😂

 

[MORTtheORT]

Hey everybody,

I come today with a (possibly) controversial topic after having tried 3 sheets of Dignics 09c (1.9 and 2.1) for about a year on 3 different blades (Nittaku Violin, DHS PG7 and DHS Wang Chuqin). My testing was done approx 80% of the time on BH and 20% on FH, as for my forehand I much prefer the Hurricane 3 Neo (but I tried nevertheless!).

My conclusion after the testing period is: I think that most amateur players (USATT <1800 or TTR <1450 approx) should avoid it because they will not be able to activate the sponge constantly during a rally and thus not get the benefits the rubber offers for the price that it costs. It can also lead to bad technical habits (racket angle too closed, too much brushing) and unforced errors while adjusting to the high throw angle and rubber overall. Plus it's not as easy to use in the passive game that most amateurs find themselves often into (myself included of course).

I have put all my in-depth findings here and also some of the alternatives to it (there are too many, not all are in there). There is also links to other communities and forums (like this one) for crediting those authors and having different views on the matter.

Blogpost link: https://www.tabletennisequipmenthelp.com/blog/dignics-09c-review-amateurs

I hope you will enjoy the read and always please give your feedback and opinion, diversity of opinions is important! This is not the truth, it's just my truth

Thanks,

Victor

I agree. It is a high performance rubber designed for high performance players.

In training drills...you will hit balls like you are the next Dragon of table tennis...match situation is a different story particularly at lower levels when you are dealing with low quality balls.

 

[victormanriquey]

Which is why the usual consensus that everyone has their own opinion about a rubber exists. For me, G09c sucks but to others it might be their holy grail. It’s not “wrong” that it sucks, but rather for me and my game, it sucks

Exactly right, opinions are allowed and as you have mentioned before, rubbers are all subjective opinions and one man’s best rubber is another man’s worst

+ 1 @joshmak10 , I want to think that the beauty of this sport is in the diversity of opinions and preferences <3

Yeah. But my counter to that is that I don't think admittedly improving players should be relying on the marginal effects of top end rubbers to get their standard results. That should be reserved for later stages in TT development in my humble opinion. Of course, it is my opinion.

I also agree to this @NextLevel

 

[victormanriquey]

I’ve used both D09C and H3N. H3N is just very different from Butterfly, Donic, or Tibhar rubbers. It is the most sticky rubber and gives you a lot of control, also the response is very linear. If you put in 30% power, you get 30%. If you put in 70%, you get 70%.
D09C feels different. It stays pretty linear below about 70%, but when you swing at around 70–80%, it suddenly kicks in much harder, almost like it jumps to 95% power. That sudden boost can make you lose control. If you don’t adjust for it, the rubber can feel unexpectedly hard and you will send the ball off the table.
So if you are not very comfortable generating power above 70%, I guess it is also hard to improve with D09C in practice.

Yes this is exactly my same experience @ChientoLi , and I play H3N for years now, with 09c on my BH so I could compare them pretty well for a year. It's the moment that you have a certain speed with it when it stops being linear and goes hard, so for me it was not worth it due to that exact loss of control that you mention, you worded it very nice.

 

[victormanriquey]

I'm sort of beating a dead horse by saying "everybody's different"

I agree with you here fully @golden_son , you are not alone, that's why I mentioned in my article the word 'most', there is plenty of nuance and I'm happy that this nuance exists, it's the beauty of the sport.

While some talented and/or well-coached amateurs can surely pick up D09c and learn to use it to full effect

Yes that can be for sure

It's easy to fall into the trap of hitting a plateau in your training and thinking equipment is the reason, and doing just what NL says here. There's a sort of false-positive reinforcement that comes with getting more spin/speed out of jumping to a higher-end rubber that can make a player overlook the negatives they're introducing to their game and stop focusing on the right technical improvement(s). I'm guilty of it myself, though I count it as a valuable—if costly—learning experience. I've also gone through the stumbles—and seen my training compatriots go through the stumbles—of coming to the first coaching session with rubber that is too technically demanding—often on a Viscaria—because they read about it online, dropped the cash, and beat their untrained ping-pong friends with the overwhelming speed and spin, ignoring the points they lost by misreading spin or overshooting the table; only to get absolutely humbled in simple drive practice with a coach.

Big +1 to this, it's also my experience.

I've tried D09c on a friend's racket just to see what it's like and while it certainly resulted in some "ooh, ahh 🤩" shots it also produced its fair share of duds (or rather, I did). I could tell it was forcing me to spend precious time thinking more about my stroke and racket angle and not just playing on instinct; and this was just free-hitting, not real training or match play. Perhaps this gives it a place as a [expensive] training rubber (similar to how H3 forces you to learn proper technique); but not a daily driver until one's match play catches up to their training. (I've honestly started to consider the merits of having an "aspirational" bat for training and a "safer" bat for match play, but that's another topic.)

Another +1 to this, I'm the same as you here.

I suddenly feel much less guilty about my EJ habits 😂

It went totally out of hand, I was like 'seriously Victor, you told your wife it was a couple rubbers to test and review in the blog'. SUCH A FILTHY LIE. I have them hidden in the cabinet 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

 

[victormanriquey]

I agree. It is a high performance rubber designed for high performance players.

In training drills...you will hit balls like you are the next Dragon of table tennis...match situation is a different story particularly at lower levels when you are dealing with low quality balls.

Yes @MORTtheORT in matches it all changes, it's only possible to realise this when you are under pressure, 2-2, last game, 5-5 or 7-7 or 9-9, that's where you realise, damn, I can't fully trust on my gear in the most difficult moments, and that moment of doubt can make you lose games.

 

[Der_Echte]

To go contrarian to the OP @victormanriquey says about 09C...

Many professionally trained children players use such a rubber... and with this new gen of ABS ball, it is so easy to hit through pin than previous gen ABS or Cell ball... so kids now are training to flip spin serves... then counter that flip... and counter that counter with a more crushing compact stroke counter...

09C makes it easy to do those tasks than many rubbers and makes it a no brainer choice... even so D05 for that... both excel there.

Personally, as good and skilled player I am, I do not use such a shot enough and my current rubbers do fine in that area so it would be unsensible to change.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I think that most amateur players (USATT <1800 or TTR <1450 approx) should avoid it because they will not be able to activate the sponge constantly during a rally and thus not get the benefits the rubber offers for the price that it costs. It can also lead to bad technical habits (racket angle too closed, too much brushing) and unforced errors while adjusting to the high throw angle and rubber overall. Plus it's not as easy to use in the passive game that most amateurs find themselves often into (myself included of course).

But you repeatedly describe H3N which is also a tacky, hard, non-bouncy rubber, as a "strict but fair teacher"? So why does that not apply to 09c?

And H3N can't lead to bad technical habits in lower level players because it is demanding and causes "unforced" errors when used by those who can't handle it?

 

[NextLevel]

But you repeatedly describe H3N which is also a tacky, hard, non-bouncy rubber, as a "strict but fair teacher"? So why does that not apply to 09c?

And H3N can't lead to bad technical habits in lower level players because it is demanding and causes "unforced" errors when used by those who can't handle it?

The counterargument will.be based on "throw angle" and linearity, and maybe price. But he thinks G09c is usable by amateurs so I dunno...

 

[Tyce]

The counterargument will.be based on "throw angle" and linearity, and maybe price. But he thinks G09c is usable by amateurs so I dunno...

Your tag teaming is getting old.

There's so much room for other opinions, but when someone voices one the get ridiculed by the two-man-unit who then just laugh at each other's comments. Stupid jock culture.

 

[NextLevel]

Your tag teaming is getting old

In this case it was because I was going to lodge the exact same objection and decided ir wasn't worth jt. Sometimes I think I am insane whern I read certain things until I see that I am not the only one. Maybe it is social conditioning or something. But Victor is a good guy, he can handle it. And honestly. I don't agree with @ThePongCommenter on various things (we still differ on some details onf what customization is about for top athletes as one example), but if you can push H3 for amateurs and not D09c, most of your argument has to be tied to price. Not rubber properties.

You made the other argument (using something wrongly and effectively) is no one's business.other than the user. To br honest, all this activating the sponge stuff was completely alien to me before all the recent discussions. I just hit the ball and saw what it did and went from there. So I am learning as we go. Maybe i should switch to something softer so I can activate the sponge more comsistently...

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Your tag teaming is getting old.

There's so much room for other opinions, but when someone voices one the get ridiculed by the two-man-unit who then just laugh at each other's comments. Stupid jock culture.

Tag teaming? And when the forum majority engages in "Butterfly bad for beginners / will ruin your life" discussion for the millionth time, that isn't tag teaming? But two people who typically push back on that are the tag team...

 

[victormanriquey]

To go contrarian to the OP @victormanriquey says about 09C...

Many professionally trained children players use such a rubber... and with this new gen of ABS ball, it is so easy to hit through pin than previous gen ABS or Cell ball... so kids now are training to flip spin serves... then counter that flip... and counter that counter with a more crushing compact stroke counter...

09C makes it easy to do those tasks than many rubbers and makes it a no brainer choice... even so D05 for that... both excel there.

Personally, as good and skilled player I am, I do not use such a shot enough and my current rubbers do fine in that area so it would be unsensible to change.

I think that opinion is valid @Der_Echte and as I have mentioned other times, children under training of coaches and good practice can learn with anything and on anything. The same works for adults but it takes a bit more time, children are like sponges that absorb anything.

That aside, I think its also sensible not to change, I follow the same philosophy but viceversa, I cannot play with tensors

And last thing on this point is that the problem I see the most is with beginners and and low/medium intermediates who fall in the trap of buying premium equipmemt to solve for their technique problems. In the last months, I have helped a bit more than 40 people with their gear, and I saw this issue very often, D09c was a part of it in many ocassions, and in every case of those, they played better without it.

But as I always emphasize, the beauty of this sport is in the diversity of perspectives and opinions, many paths lead to the same goal, this is why the title of my post says 'My opinion and My truth', not 'the truth' and I knew it would be controversial

Thanks for your opinion as always!

 

[victormanriquey]

But you repeatedly describe H3N which is also a tacky, hard, non-bouncy rubber, as a "strict but fair teacher"? So why does that not apply to 09c?

And H3N can't lead to bad technical habits in lower level players because it is demanding and causes "unforced" errors when used by those who can't handle it?

I was missing your message @ThePongCommenter , thanks for always sharing a counter opinion, keeps things more neutral. I will answer together with next level. You guys know I like a good chat

 

[victormanriquey]

The counterargument will.be based on "throw angle" and linearity, and maybe price. But he thinks G09c is usable by amateurs so I dunno...

@NextLevel, great minds think alike, throw angle, non-linearity with passive play, and price are indeed the main arguments against it.

With H3N you get a much more balanced throw (specially for FH where the body makes the arch, so no need for extra throw), plus you always know what you get out of it, and the price makes it much better.

But also remember that I said on my blogpost that it's a fantastic rubber and that I enjoyed it om BH at times, so I think I have offered enough good counter arguments so people can compare

 

[victormanriquey]

Your tag teaming is getting old.

There's so much room for other opinions, but when someone voices one the get ridiculed by the two-man-unit who then just laugh at each other's comments. Stupid jock culture.

Haha thanks for defending a fellow (half) dutch man Tyce, but there is no need, also no need to call out the guys, its a free forum and I enjoy a good punch, I was already looking forward to the conversation with both of them, we have messaged privately before and they are both cool guys, they just whole heartdely disagree with my point of view and that is fine, as NextLevel says, I can have it all

But appreciate your comment to keep things balanced in here, diversity of opinions is very important

 

[Tyce]

Tag teaming? And when the forum majority engages in "Butterfly bad for beginners / will ruin your life" discussion for the millionth time, that isn't tag teaming? But two people who typically push back on that are the tag team...

Yep. Saying you agree there's room for other opinions and then demonstrating the exact opposite, in the same duo, is tag teaming.

 

[victormanriquey]

In this case it was because I was going to lodge the exact same objection and decided ir wasn't worth jt. Sometimes I think I am insane whern I read certain things until I see that I am not the only one. Maybe it is social conditioning or something. But Victor is a good guy, he can handle it. And honestly. I don't agree with @ThePongCommenter on various things (we still differ on some details onf what customization is about for top athletes as one example), but if you can push H3 for amateurs and not D09c, most of your argument has to be tied to price. Not rubber properties.

You made the other argument (using something wrongly and effectively) is no one's business.other than the user. To br honest, all this activating the sponge stuff was completely alien to me before all the recent discussions. I just hit the ball and saw what it did and went from there. So I am learning as we go. Maybe i should switch to something softer so I can activate the sponge more comsistently...

I can always have it @NextLevel , and indeed, I enjoy a good chat a dealing and receiving a couple punches, it's a forum, it's part of the fun!

I will say though, that the whole thing of 'hit-brushing' or 'activating' the sponge is unknown by most TT players, I see this almost always when I help people with gear (and my amateur group at the club). But it is a real thing, the chinese have known this for a long time. It's just that now we start seeing this more in videos from chinese coaches.

 

[NextLevel]

@NextLevel, great minds think alike, throw angle, non-linearity with passive play, and price are indeed the main arguments against it.

With H3N you get a much more balanced throw (specially for FH where the body makes the arch, so no need for extra throw), plus you always know what you get out of it, and the price makes it much better.

But also remember that I said on my blogpost that it's a fantastic rubber and that I enjoyed it om BH at times, so I think I have offered enough good counter arguments so people can compare

Yes, but since you are used to H3, what you considered non-linear behavior might be desirable behavior for some players in some range of swings. Most amateurs won't enter that range, and when they do, they will be generally advanced enough that they can decide if it makes sense for them. All in all, for me, my philosophy has been always to adjust to the rubber, never to beg the rubber to adjust to me.

 

[victormanriquey]

Tag teaming? And when the forum majority engages in "Butterfly bad for beginners / will ruin your life" discussion for the millionth time, that isn't tag teaming? But two people who typically push back on that are the tag team...

I hope that nothing in TT will ruin your life, maybe your wallet (in my case) or your technique, but not your life. Table tennis is the most important thing of the least important things

And btw, Butterfly is not bad for beginners, some products are, just like any other brand. This is my opinion though, but not everybody agrees, that's fine