My Butterfly Dignics 09C Review: Why I think that most amateur players should avoid it

[victormanriquey]

20%!? More like 5% at most. Amateurs will log on to this forum and see ~6 pages of thread talking about D09c vs H3N and think getting good at table tennis requires forming an opinion on this.

This is where I disagree 100% (and where many people will agree with you, it's fine), but it's not only because I have experienced this on my own EJ journey (started with way too fast stuff, viscaria for example) but I have also seen it in the people I help with equipment. It's almost 50 people up to today.

The key thing you may forget here, is that your average amateur does not have personalised coaching for a long time, nor he/she understands gear. So very often, they will just get started with TT, and look for what is the best. I can mention so many examples here, but the one you will find on my site, Christopher, he was an ex-baseball pro player. He then decided to go back to TT for fun, and he bought a viscaria with T05 and T64 after looking online what he should get.

I saw his video when playing, and it was the gear that was also really hurting his technique, he was braking his arm, not using his body, mostly poking at the ball, had no feeling, didn't dare. All because the ball would be spitted out before he could even realise. I have explained this here: https://www.tabletennisequipmenthelp.com/blog/why-amateur-players-should-avoid-fast-gear and here: https://www.tabletennisequipmenthelp.com/blog/how-the-butterfly-viscaria-ruined-my-technique

The counter argument is that Christopher should have gotten a coach, and with a coach, his gear would have been fine. But it would have not, his coach would have said, why are you playing with stuff that FZD uses, go back to a 5 ply blade with razka 7 or similar and that's it. That's what I told him, that's what he did, and now he has improved significantly after he got himself a coach. His new IRL coach said the exact same thing I said btw. Like this story, I have plenty more

For these players, looking for improvement through changing equipment is a dead end. What's required is an awareness of correct technique, awareness of where their technique is wrong, an openness to the short-term discomfort of experimenting/changing technique, and the opportunity to practice.

I agree to this, but many people start with really the wrong gear, so that's a problem in my experience. See what @Matteones said before on this thread, he is also a coach for a long time, and he would never give a viscaria with T05 to anybody that just got started, it's common sense, but in the world of TT, often this common sense does not exist because it's hard to know that too fast gear is not good for you or what to get. Brands marketing does not help either.

If you are one of those players reading this, my advice is: changing equipment is a distraction, just stick with what you have since it's almost certainly fine (maybe avoid this forum if you find it's making you think about equipment too much). If you are making any equipment mistake, it's probably that you're not replacing your rubbers often enough. Get used to gluing rubbers...it might be annoying at first and it's a bit expensive, but fresh rubbers really are better. Focus on your technique, especially whether/how you are moving your feet. Be open-minded about experimenting/trying different approaches.

I agree to this, and all I have to add is: stick to your gear, once is good for your level, playstyle, technique development goals and budget. But if you play with way too fast or hard gear for your level, change, it costs no more than 50 dollars often. Once that is good, the rest is technique for sure.

 

[Souther]

What a player says about G09c tells you a lot about what they think a good rubber should do. I understand the idea that it sucks (the balls are not as threatening as Dignics 09c) but this is wrong (there are a lot of control elements that offset this especially in the short and blocking game if you are an all round player and can work on keeping the opponent close to the table or flat countering reliably).

It's true that there is something good with every tool and you just need to be able to recognize it and exploit it. At a local health club, there are tables with cheap plastic outdoor paddles supplied for long lasting casual play. There is a guy who uses it better than several that bring their own custom rackets. Basically a miyamoto musashi with a wooden sword... not ideal but still lethal.

 

[jk1980]

What new techniques did you learn after switching to slower equipment?

Forehand and backhand flicks I never even dared to attempt in a match while playing HL5 with rubbers harder than 50° ESN hardness it would just feel like the only feedback I got from certain techniques is visual. I can see if I flick over the table or into the net, but I could not associate the success or failure with the feeling of where and how I hit the ball on my blade. The haptic feedback I got from the all wood (acoustic) blade actually provides info and connection between hand and muscle memory constantly reinforcing slight adjustments.
With the faster setup a bad and a good flick would feel exactly the same or rather not feel much at all.

In system drills for flicks the success rate was similar at first, but the feedback provided by the blade to my mind inside a match encourages execution because even if I would fail, I would at least know why and could adjust.

Another thing is the spinny loop from below table height which in would never try with that faster setup. Back then it was Bomba or nothing

 

[NextLevel]

Oh no, Musclepong switched to D09c.... what is going on lol... @victormanriquey , save him fast....

 

[Topspinslinger]

I somewhat agree with the title, depending what targeted audience you have in mind.
Starting (beginners) developing youth should't play with these hard rubbers on either side. They need to learn basic strokes without any issue and using a 5 ply with rakza 7 will in general provide better development.

While senior beginners might find harder rubber with a semi or even tacky rubber easier to control due to the topsheet due to self taught technique and the lack of control over bouncy rubbers.

My experience in this is in my old home club many senior intermediate players use sriver.
They didn't like rakza 7 on my blade, but boosted Dignics 09c felt more comfortable mostly because it FELT more controlable.

 

[OvrChkn]

Oh no, Musclepong switched to D09c.... what is going on lol... @victormanriquey , save him fast....

The funny thing is that we're on a two-month lag here, so you never know where the journey will go.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

This is where I disagree 100% (and where many people will agree with you, it's fine), but it's not only because I have experienced this on my own EJ journey (started with way too fast stuff, viscaria for example) but I have also seen it in the people I help with equipment. It's almost 50 people up to today.

Would you say that the people qualified to assess how much equipment matters towards development are people who are EJs and amateurs themselves or people who are experienced with coaching and long term development in both professional and amateur environments?

Do you have an abundance of data over a long period of time that uncoached beginners/intermediates who use rackets that you approve of, end up at significantly higher levels of play than those who use rackets that you don't approve of including 09c? Genuinely asking because I suspect I train and engage in different TT environments and therefore see different trends and patterns than most on this forum.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

The reason I ask the above and maybe this is getting way off topic - from my experience European amateur players have comparatively less emphasis on technique than American and Asian amateurs mostly due to differences in training systems (group vs. private instruction, less Chinese imported coaches, and philosophy as well). This possibly explains why European users commonly are against harder rubbers for beginners or uncoached people, though doesn't explain OP's H3 preference... or change the fact that uncoached beginners generally all end up around the same low level regardless of what equipment they use...

 

[pong99]

Oh no, Musclepong switched to D09c.... what is going on lol... @victormanriquey , save him fast....

I have watched several musclepong videos. I wouldn't put much stock into his ej-ing. He has spent lots of $$$ on coaching, including traveling to Taiwan, but has been stuck at the same level for a while.

My hobby level analysis is that he spends way too much time working on strokes while having poor footwork. He plays a FH dominant style like Aruna without pro quality footwork. Anything he has to say about his FH rubber must be colored with the fact he takes a lot of wild swings which would be bad with any rubber.

 

[victormanriquey]

Oh no, Musclepong switched to D09c.... what is going on lol... @victormanriquey , save him fast....

Hahaha All good if he enjoys it

I wouldn't do it for his level but seems he is having a good time so who am I to say?!

 

[NextLevel]

Hahaha All good if he enjoys it

I wouldn't do it for his level but seems he is having a good time so who am I to say?!

He used Hurricane for a long time too - bad for his level?

 

[NextLevel]

I have watched several musclepong videos. I wouldn't put much stock into his ej-ing. He has spent lots of $$$ on coaching, including traveling to Taiwan, but has been stuck at the same level for a while.

My hobby level analysis is that he spends way too much time working on strokes while having poor footwork. He plays a FH dominant style like Aruna without pro quality footwork. Anything he has to say about his FH rubber must be colored with the fact he takes a lot of wild swings which would be bad with any rubber.

Putting stock into anyone's EJing is granting them expertise they probably don't have. IT's one thing to know a player and how they play and see whether you want to use what they use. It's another thing to claim that you know what someone will play best with when all factors are considered including potential for good and bad adaptations.

As for musclepong, I find that many people who haven't seriously tried to get to a decent rating level as adults tend to underestimate the difficulty of the what is being attempted. Musclepong is doing pretty fine, there are many blind alleys one often goes down before getting to the promised land. If he develops a decent backhand, and then works on two winged stable play, his footwork will improve. He just feels comfortable covering a lot of the table with his forehand and moves just as someone who learned as an adult largely does.

 

[victormanriquey]

Would you say that the people qualified to assess how much equipment matters towards development are people who are EJs and amateurs themselves or people who are experienced with coaching and long term development in both professional and amateur environments?

Do you have an abundance of data over a long period of time that uncoached beginners/intermediates who use rackets that you approve of, end up at significantly higher levels of play than those who use rackets that you don't approve of including 09c? Genuinely asking because I suspect I train and engage in different TT environments and therefore see different trends and patterns than most on this forum.

I think that I have already explained to you in another thread my coaching experience on both the technique and gear aspects but since you ask again, I dont mind answering again.

I have been the coach of our amateurs for 2y now. We have grown the group from a small 15 people to about 40 since I'm there, it's so successful that we need another day for the training because we don't fit anymore. I don't want to brag, this is the reality. Also, our amateur teams have started winning and promoting much more, now 3 of them promoted last season where before none of them had promoted before. These people range from beginners to intermediate players, let's say until 1800 USATT. And about me, I play at the second highest regional level in the netherlands, have won a tournament recently of level about 2000 USATT and have trained at multiple places including borussia dusseldorf last year (and again this year). I always say though, I am and will be an amateur, I learn every day, I stay always humble (the above is objective data, I never will say this unless you ask me, I hate bragging), I'm not perfect, but I train hard and have an inmense passion to help others. That is what matters to me the most.

About gear, I have tried more than 100 rubbers and blades combined, and have now about 30 more ready to be tested at home. I think I can say that I know how gear feels and behaves. About table tennis equipment help, I have now given advice on gear for about 2 years, and if you look at my google reviews, you will see it's all 5 stars. I dont buy any reviews, it's all real people I have helped and are happy. I can give you their emails if you want to ask yourself

Not sure how much more data I can provide, is there anything else you'd like me to comment on? I'm happy to do so

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I think that I have already explained to you in another thread my coaching experience on both the technique and gear aspects but since you ask again, I dont mind answering again.

I have been the coach of our amateurs for 2y now. We have grown the group from a small 15 people to about 40 since I'm there, it's so successful that we need another day for the training because we don't fit anymore. I don't want to brag, this is the reality. Also, our amateur teams have started winning and promoting much more, now 3 of them promoted last season where before none of them had promoted before. These people range from beginners to intermediate players, let's say until 1800 USATT. And about me, I play at the second highest regional level in the netherlands, have won a tournament recently of level about 2000 USATT and have trained at multiple places including borussia dusseldorf last year (and again this year). I always say though, I am and will be an amateur, I learn every day, I stay always humble (the above is objective data, I never will say this unless you ask me, I hate bragging), I'm not perfect, but I train hard and have an inmense passion to help others. That is what matters to me the most.

About gear, I have tried more than 100 rubbers and blades combined, and have now about 30 more ready to be tested at home. I have now given advice on gear for about 2 years, and if you look at my google reviews, you will see it's all 5 stars. I dont buy any reviews, it's all real people I have helped and are happy. I can give you his emails if you want to ask yourself

Not sure how much more data I can provide, is there anything else you'd like me to comment on? I'm happy to do so

That isn't really what I was asking, so a little more directly, what are the average rating gains of the players who follow your equipment advice versus the ones who don't?

 

[Lula]

I do not find it justified to burn so much money on one rubber sheet if you an hobby player. Maybe it is just me that need to get payed more haha

 

[victormanriquey]

That isn't really what I was asking, so a little more directly, what are the average rating gains of the players who follow your equipment advice versus the ones who don't?

I see, well a couple things to say here:

- First of all, not all is rating. Technique and overall happiness with the sport also count.

- Second, not all amateurs I have helped play competition. So I can only tell you they all play better and feel happier nowadays. I can share the emails where they say so if you want.

- Then the data you ask for, from the 3 teams that promoted, it was about 9-10 players (with reserve players). Rating increase in the last year is about 100 to 200 dutch elo points depending on the player, so that would be around 200-400 USATT elo? there is no exact comparison I can use so I guess is approx?. I cannot see the data of 2y ago without taking at least 1h to check, need to go player by player history. But I think the above explains what you wanted to know?

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I see, well a couple things to say here:

- First of all, not all is rating. Technique and overall happiness with the sport also count.

- Second, not all amateurs I have helped play competition. So I can only tell you they all play better and feel happier nowadays. I can share the emails where they say so if you want.

- Then the data you ask for, from the 3 teams that promoted, it was about 9-10 players (with reserve players). Rating increase in the last year is about 100 to 200 dutch elo points depending on the player, so that would be around 200-400 USATT elo? there is no exact comparison I can use so I guess is approx?. I cannot see the data of 2y ago without taking at least 1h to check, need to go player by player history. But I think the above explains what you wanted to know?

Was just looking for an approximation, not an exact calculation. 200-400 rating points per year for players in the 1000-1800 range seems about average for serious amateurs trying to improve (which I assume league players are), was just curious if you were able to compare the results specifically of those who took your equipment advice and those who didn't.

I assume the people who don't feel difference with their equipment aren't emailing you to tell you so but if you have a 100% success rate in increasing overall happiness with your equipment recommendations that is amazing!

 

[victormanriquey]

200-400 rating points per year for players in the 1000-1800 range seems about average for serious amateurs trying to improve (which I assume league players are), was just curious if you were able to compare the results specifically of those who took your equipment advice and those who didn't.

Yeah so before I became the coach most of them had no rating increase per year/season, our amateur players were very stuck on gear and technique and so I wanted to help because I was once in that position as well. This is sadly not a rare thing in dutch clubs from what I have experienced. @Tyce can comment from his point of view of the 'recreational' amateurs and low league players. By the way, not all were using too fast gear for them, some used too old gear too. And most needed technical tips as well ofc.

For the last part, I keep in touch with every person I have helped, and I hear from them often, may be weird, but I care about people so I will ask them to send me videos and updates once in a while. So far, nobody has been unhappy, the opposite really. I know it sounds a bit fake or not real, but it is the truth, I'm not making it prettier to sell more, I give you my word on it

 

[victormanriquey]

I was now thinking, since I always get some heat from you @ThePongCommenter and @NextLevel , why dont I give you free advice on gear and technique and we put it here in the forum so other people can see it? It's the easiest way to show you all how I work and I really dont mind doing it for free so everybody has an example, it would be my pleasure to try to help

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Yeah so before I became the coach most of them had no rating increase per year/season, our amateur players were very stuck on gear and technique and so I wanted to help because I was once in that position as well. This is sadly not a rare thing in dutch clubs from what I have experienced. @Tyce can comment from his point of view of the 'recreational' amateurs and low league players. By the way, not all were using too fast gear for them, some used too old gear too. And most needed technical tips as well ofc.

For the last part, I keep in touch with every person I have helped, and I hear from them often, may be weird, but I care about people so I will ask them to send me videos and updates once in a while. So far, nobody has been unhappy, the opposite really. I know it sounds a bit fake or not real, but it is the truth, I'm not making it prettier to sell more, I give you my word on it

I don't doubt it at all which is what I was trying to mention in my earlier comment - it isn't uncommon in European amateur club environments from what I've seen and the Netherlands respectfully might be a little worse in this regard. I'm not asking you to post proof of what you've done, I believe you, just questioning whether one can really attribute improvements or lack of improvement to 20% equipment/80% training.

Without knowing more information, I'd say it was your good coaching rather than your equipment advice that got these players who had not been improving at all to suddenly improving 200-400 points per year.

I was now thinking, since I always get some heat from you @ThePongCommenter and @NextLevel , why dont I give you free advice on gear and technique and we put it here in the forum so other people can see it? It's the easiest way to show you all how I work and I really dont mind doing it for free so everybody has an example, it would be my pleasure to try to help

Appreciate the offer but I'm not looking to change and generally make these decisions based on conversation with the professionals who know my game, physical attributes, and tendencies well.