My Butterfly Dignics 09C Review: Why I think that most amateur players should avoid it

[Tyce]

I could not help myself sharing this today

tl;dr: intermediate player, not much time to play, uses backhand to block passively, plays viscaria and D09c 2.1 on BH (and also on FH). Says he likes tacky rubbers but is looking into R7 and other tensors

This is for me a good example of people buying the wrong gear (due to not being well informed) for their level and playstyle, which then has consequences on their overall game (he says balls fly off the table as his main problem). It's of course quite extreme, but I see this almost daily on reddit

A lot of it due to people just blurting out their own experience and preference rather than actually listening to the question asked

 

[RefereeNumber2]

Not that he shared, I can ask, very likely his technique is not very good either of course, he is an intermediate that doesn't play too much, but my point was that what is this kind of player doing with such a setup, makes no sense at all

I have a very different interpretation of this post. We have a player with likely quite poor technique who thinks his equipment is the reason he can’t keep blocks on the table.

If he thinks the solution is getting a different rubber, it is entirely possible he is not examining/experimenting with his technique in order to solve the problem. If, instead, he believed it was entirely possible to keep blocks on the table with D09c, which is actually the truth, then he might experiment and make these discoveries more quickly.

I probably wouldn’t advise a novice player to buy that equipment, either. But if they already had it, then that advice is not helping them to save money. And the implicit lesson a lot of inexperienced players take away from that advice is that they can solve technical problems with different equipment, which is counterproductive for the reasons stated above.

 

[victormanriquey]

I have a very different interpretation of this post. We have a player with likely quite poor technique who thinks his equipment is the reason he can’t keep blocks on the table.

If he thinks the solution is getting a different rubber, it is entirely possible he is not examining/experimenting with his technique in order to solve the problem. If, instead, he believed it was entirely possible to keep blocks on the table with D09c, which is actually the truth, then he might experiment and make these discoveries more quickly.

I probably wouldn’t advise a novice player to buy that equipment, either. But if they already had it, then that advice is not helping them to save money. And the implicit lesson a lot of inexperienced players take away from that advice is that they can solve technical problems with different equipment, which is counterproductive for the reasons stated above.

Yes I see your angle @RefereeNumber2 and I understand it and partially agree with it, it's not a good habit to solve issues with gear, fully agreed to that, the main issue is always technique. But I also believe in the fact (because I have seen it many times) that the right gear acts as an enhancer of the right technique, it helps feel it more and you grow faster. But in any case, with personalised coaching, gear becomes less relevant, that's for sure, a coach can often work with a lot of scenarios, too advanced gear being one of them.

I will say though that I often cannot help people on technique, as not everybody is open to sharing a video and there is not enough time to help everybody (or they are not open to learning, also possible), I can at least mention that the gear is not helping either. As you said, this setup is not what I would ever recommend to this kind of player.

In any case, to summarise, you have a valid point that I respect (even though I partially have a different perspective) and thanks for sharing your opinion in a polite and respectful way!

 

[NextLevel]

I have a very different interpretation of this post. We have a player with likely quite poor technique who thinks his equipment is the reason he can’t keep blocks on the table.

If he thinks the solution is getting a different rubber, it is entirely possible he is not examining/experimenting with his technique in order to solve the problem. If, instead, he believed it was entirely possible to keep blocks on the table with D09c, which is actually the truth, then he might experiment and make these discoveries more quickly.

I probably wouldn’t advise a novice player to buy that equipment, either. But if they already had it, then that advice is not helping them to save money. And the implicit lesson a lot of inexperienced players take away from that advice is that they can solve technical problems with different equipment, which is counterproductive for the reasons stated above.

Another issue is level difference and adaptation if possible. When someone complains about equipment or the opponents equipment , I find that if they are beginners or intermediate without established ratings amd experience playing with different playing levels in a country with a good system, they can confuse the impact of the equipment with the limitations of their playing level or not seeing the playing level of the opponent as significantly higher than theirs. Table tennis looks deceptively simple to the uninitiated. But even with or without technical limitations, a player at a higher level can make your technique look bad, and it has less to do with your equipment than you think it does. And sometimes less to do with your technique in the sense that what you really need is to get experience controlling the ball and adapting at that level. Blaming equipment is easy because equipment always has tradeoffs and blaming technique is a broad catch all. But exposure and adaptation is sometimes not discussed seriously. I think especially of people who blame their performance against pips largely on the equipment of the opponent when a player is already 500 pts higher rated than they are. Something like this is more common than people realize.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

Not that he shared, I can ask, very likely his technique is not very good either of course, he is an intermediate that doesn't play too much, but my point was that what is this kind of player doing with such a setup, makes no sense at all

Intermediate is a vague term that can mean a lot of things but if he is anywhere between 1500-1900 USATT or higher then I don't think Viscaria+09c is necessarily an insane choice. Anyways, reading that post, my first thoughts would be:

1) is he trying to block the balls too late/after the ball is far past the top of the bounce?
2) is he getting his racket over the ball and pressing down onto it or is he contacting from behind or under the ball
3) is he making flat or brushy contact, basically is he actually blocking or unknowingly counterlooping
4) is he absorbing the power or is he adding too much power back in his block unknowingly

What blade and rubber he is using is probably the last thing I would think about and I think if I posed this question to the numerous professional players and coaches I'm familiar with I am confident they would have a similar thought process.

If he correctly adapted the 4 things referenced above he would almost surely be decent in blocking even with his racket. Maybe not the next Harimoto, but good enough relative to his level. If not, he is probably not an intermediate which is pretty likely when it comes to internet posts anyways.

 

[Robin0910]

10:28 Patrick Franziska also doesn’t recommend D09c for beginners, especially kids

 

[Matteones]

10:28 Patrick Franziska also doesn’t recommend D09c for beginners, especially kids

It is just plain common sense, and despite all the nuances of the 9 pages written on this thread, it remains plain and simple common sense in the grand majority of cases.

 

[NextLevel]

10:28 Patrick Franziska also doesn’t recommend D09c for beginners, especially kids

It's obviously common sense, but it is also a Glayzer plug, Moreover, I am pretty sure he would not recommend H3 for beginners as well, especially kids. Where does that leave us?

 

[MORTtheORT]

B

Not sure why you're trying to drown an informational post in whataboutisms. I'm just adding nuance to the Muscle Pong argument.

Because this site has a moderate that must be right, and must dominate any discussion so that they are right....

 

[NextLevel]

B

Because this site has a moderate that must be right, and must dominate any discussion so that they are right....

Let's say I wasnt a moderator since you are fixated on it. What do you think would change? Curious.

 

[MORTtheORT]

Let's say I wasnt a moderator since you are fixated on it. What do you think would change? Curious.

Nothing, but then you are not the moderator.....get the point.

 

[NetProphet]

Nothing, but then you are not the moderator.....get the point.

But how does his role as a Moderator actually change the nature or interpretation of what he is writing? It's absolutely bang on to disagree and put your case forward, go for it! But it's strange to point towards an irrelevant status as some reason to disregard.
Like,,.really who gives a crap if someone is a moderator? You either agree or disagree upon the merit in people's thinking right?
Or is it status only and merit be damned, like in some kind of reverse DEI way of looking at things?

 

[NextLevel]

Nothing, but then you are not the moderator.....get the point.

Okay. If you can be clearer on what would change if I was not the moderator. Because I have been posting this way for over a decade on this site and you can't explain what would change even if only to make the point, could you please find something else to focus on? Before I took this role and even after, I spoke to the person who had the role prior to me. He was one of the people who argued that there was little reason to stop posting as a site member.

Ultimately, if you have a problem with anything I do that concerns moderation, please take it up with @Dan or even @NDH or @UpSideDownCarl if you think it is something I cannot discuss without bias. However, if you are going to bring up the fact that I am a moderator in more posts because I am doing what I have done for over a decade and triggered few if any reported posts, then I do have to ask what your motive in bringing it up is.

Of course, you can convince me what would change and then I would note it.

Everyone agrees they wouldn't start a beginner with D09c, mostly because of sponge hardness. My main point, which remains unchanged, is that if you can start someone on 39 degree Hurricane 3 Neo on the forehand, you can start someone on Dignics 09c. Yes, I could be completely wrong about that. And people have agreed with and disagreed with me on that. I have also made the point that how you develop a player might not be along the lines of giving them the equipment they play best with. As someone who came from H3 to Tenergy and is now happy with Tenergy, you would appreciate that. And aspects of the topic are also related to things like how much does the traditional view of equipment matter, does Butterfly get a bad rep because of pricing etc.

The truth is that just about everyone has agreed that D09c is not what they would start most/any beginners on. But there are many coaches who actively develop a player with something *like* D09c on the forehand, knowing that their coaching will help the player develop habits with it that may be harder to develop with something faster. And that they don't have to boost either.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

10:28 Patrick Franziska also doesn’t recommend D09c for beginners, especially kids

And Timo Boll does recommend D09c for beginners, going so far as to describe 09c as the "only rubber for all players" in his official review, soooooo

That said, Franziska isn't recommending H3 for beginners either so that has little to do with the discussion on this thread.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

It is just plain common sense, and despite all the nuances of the 9 pages written on this thread, it remains plain and simple common sense in the grand majority of cases.

Curious, what is the "common sense" for beginners using H3?

 

[MORTtheORT]

And Timo Boll does recommend D09c for beginners, going so far as to describe 09c as the "only rubber for all players" in his official review, soooooo

That said, Franziska isn't recommending H3 for beginners either so that has little to do with the discussion on this thread.

I think it is important to remember the commercial side of it all. Players are influenced by dollars and royalties. So I would take a review from a Pro and implement the old C.R.A.P Test.

What is very apparent from this post is people obsession with equipment and loyalty to their brands. It is a marketing dream.

 

[NextLevel]

I think it is important to remember the commercial side of it all. Players are influenced by dollars and royalties. So I would take a review from a Pro and implement the old C.R.A.P Test.

What is very apparent from this post is people obsession with equipment and loyalty to their brands. It is a marketing dream.

So you are obsessed with Butterfly since you have posted about your switch to Tenergy on both sides? And before that you were obsessed with H3 because you used it? And G1 from Nittaku as well?

And when I pointed out that Franziska, if you watch the video, was also pushing Glayzer when he made his statement, that was because I was shilling for Butterfly?

No point in ascribing bad faith to people who disagree with you on this. I mean I am looking for my unused sheets of Skyline TG3 and after reading this thread and watching some of my old matches. Need to buy some booster though lol...

 

[victormanriquey]

Another issue is level difference and adaptation if possible. When someone complains about equipment or the opponents equipment , I find that if they are beginners or intermediate without established ratings amd experience playing with different playing levels in a country with a good system, they can confuse the impact of the equipment with the limitations of their playing level or not seeing the playing level of the opponent as significantly higher than theirs.

This is indeed true, table tennis looks very simple from the outside, it's definitely deceptive.

Intermediate is a vague term that can mean a lot of things but if he is anywhere between 1500-1900 USATT or higher then I don't think Viscaria+09c is necessarily an insane choice. Anyways, reading that post, my first thoughts would be:

1) is he trying to block the balls too late/after the ball is far past the top of the bounce?
2) is he getting his racket over the ball and pressing down onto it or is he contacting from behind or under the ball
3) is he making flat or brushy contact, basically is he actually blocking or unknowingly counterlooping
4) is he absorbing the power or is he adding too much power back in his block unknowingly

What blade and rubber he is using is probably the last thing I would think about and I think if I posed this question to the numerous professional players and coaches I'm familiar with I am confident they would have a similar thought process.

If he correctly adapted the 4 things referenced above he would almost surely be decent in blocking even with his racket. Maybe not the next Harimoto, but good enough relative to his level. If not, he is probably not an intermediate which is pretty likely when it comes to internet posts anyways.

He's probably lower level than that I think, as you also mention. And indeed those 4 technique points are very important as well. We disagree on the choice of gear but I will say that if playee gets closer to the 1900 USATT level indeed the choice would not be 'insane'.

It's obviously common sense, but it is also a Glayzer plug, Moreover, I am pretty sure he would not recommend H3 for beginners as well, especially kids. Where does that leave us?

Yes it's both. It leaves us with the fact that both rubbers are hard for beginners, even though I love my H3N, the truth is that it is not the easiest to learn with

 

[victormanriquey]

If I may say one thing regarding @MORTtheORT comments, in the beginning when I started posting here, even though I enjoyed the discussion with @NextLevel and @ThePongCommenter , it did feel intense and somewhat passive-aggresive at first, coming from a moderator. I was used to more neutral and balancing mods in forums. This was how it felt to me, not how NextLevel meant it. This was clarified in a private message with him and thepongcommenter, so since then I respect and understand more how he does his moderator role. He is biased and that is okey, we disagree in many things and that is okey too, I expect some good criticism on all my posts as they are controversial, but it's good for the perspective diversity. I'm also biased and strong in my opinions, but I always try to bring them in a polite and respectful way. Btw, we also agree on many points as well.

By the way, for @ThePongCommenter he is not a moderator so he can say and do as he pleases as long as the rules of the forum are respected of course, same for all of us here. He and I disagree in many things related to gear but it keeps me sharp, so all good

In any case, last thing on this, I also understand that @MORTtheORT tries to keep the moderation level sharp, I think that this can as well be a positive thing and it's no problem to be discussed. From the above I understand that nextlevel doesnt mind discussing it.

One thing though, maybe we have gone a bit offtopic now from the initial thread, so we can bring it back to why timo and franziska disagree on 09c opinions haha

 

[joshmak10]

One thing though, maybe we have gone a bit offtopic now from the initial thread, so we can bring it back to why timo and franziska disagree on 09c opinions haha

One word: MARKETING

Serious note tho, I would personally agree with Timo more because once I used D09c on my BH as a beginner it improved tremendously, every other BH rubber felt usable but very uncomfortable for me