Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Archosaurus]

Improvement isn't necessarily about getting your maximum level up as much as it is about getting your minimum level up. A little consistency can be a lot of difference.

Yeah I've focused on just making all of my stuff land, because my maximum quality is totally fine for the play level I'm aiming for at the moment. My scoring potential fluctuates very wildly based on narrow margins atm, so my play is not stable enough.

Today I learned there are "pro" extra numbers or something like that butterfly blades aka pro versions, because of course there are, it makes perfect sense those exist, and obviously the normal mortals wouldn't really benefit from whatever extra they are, but its still a bit demoralizing considering the premium bt prices. More of a stupid ego thing than anything else.

All of the pro rubbers are different too. Higher sponge hardness by about 2.5deg, higher topsheet hardness by about 1.5deg and more friction.

 

[JustANoob]

All of the pro rubbers are different too. Higher sponge hardness by about 2.5deg, higher topsheet hardness by about 1.5deg and more friction.

Oh, I know, I dont bother boosting so I care less about the rubbers somehow.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

All of the pro rubbers are different too. Higher sponge hardness by about 2.5deg, higher topsheet hardness by about 1.5deg and more friction.

In the case of Butterfly players, often much more than only 2.5 degrees hardness extra, but it is a case by case basis for the most part

 

[NextLevel]

Improvement isn't necessarily about getting your maximum level up as much as it is about getting your minimum level up. A little consistency can be a lot of difference.

This needs to be pinned to a wall for some players to read. Before you raise your risk level (power, etc.), you raise your average level so you have a better platform to select taking risks out of.

 

[Archosaurus]

In the case of Butterfly players, often much more than only 2.5 degrees hardness extra, but it is a case by case basis for the most part

I'm sure specifically sponsored star players get whatever, but moreso I mean the generic "national" models used for practice partners, B-teamers and whatever. Even those are different and should be better.

This needs to be pinned to a wall for some players to read. Before you raise your risk level (power, etc.), you raise your average level so you have a better platform to select taking risks out of.

I saw a video of some 2450~ player playing a 1950~ player and all the 2450 guy did was push softly, block softly and drive softly and he easily won all the games just by taking only the appropriate risk, while the other guy was trying hard and missing half his shots.

 

[ThePongCommenter]

I saw a video of some 2450~ player playing a 1950~ player and all the 2450 guy did was push softly, block softly and drive softly and he easily won all the games just by taking only the appropriate risk, while the other guy was trying hard and missing half his shots.

Anecdotes like these aren't as informative as you think they are when the level difference is so big between two players. A 2450 could beat a 1950 using long pips on the backhand, that doesn't mean that a fellow 1950 trying to beat this 1950 should switch to long pips to win.

The reason the 2450 beats the 1950 by pushing and blocking is because he has a 2450 push and block which a 1950 can do nothing about because the level difference is simply too big. No matter how safely another 1950 tries to play against a 1950, they aren't going to magically turn into a 2450 level pusher and blocker just because they decided to emphasize safety. The level of risk has nothing to do with why the 2450 won. The 2450 also can afford to play this way because they know that if things happened to get close or a point extended, they could finish the point whenever they feel like it.

But yes, for some players, more safety is what they need. For some, more aggression is what they need. Raising your floor doesn't always mean playing safer, it can also mean not pushing back 5 pushes per game when you're capable of attacking them, so that you aren't leaving free and easy points on the table.

So, it is a trap to say that the solution to raising your floor is always just playing safer or lower risk.

 

[Der_Echte]

This needs to be pinned to a wall for some players to read. Before you raise your risk level (power, etc.), you raise your average level so you have a better platform to select taking risks out of.

Yes, I frequently advocate orally when speaking to players that TT is about Consistency and Placement (with enough quality) (and it only takes a little quality to do the job most of the time)

Not pissing away points like a visit to the pisser after downing 4 successive 1 litre Steins of Festbier at Oktoberfest goes a long way towards winning.

 

[golden_son]

Not pissing away points like a visit to the pisser after downing 4 successive 1 litre Steins of Festbier at Oktoberfest goes a long way towards winning.

Bad analogy IMO. Emptying the chamber after 4 liters of beer feels like winning to me!

 

[jk1980]

It's really about who is winning and who is losing the game.
I can lose the game without the opponent winning. in training matches i will play overly ambitious and try to attack as much as possible. If my success rate is low than it is really me loosing the game instead of the opponent winning. F
or me this is a very big difference:
Did the opponent outplay me or put me under pressure so that i crumbled then it is his win.

If the opponent just casually plays the ball back and waits for my unforced errors, then it is really just me losing, but not him winning.

Especially in training i am totally fine with me losing against weaker players or stronger players winning against me. A "worse" player winning against me might happen if he is on his happy day and hits all his "low chance" shots, but that should not occur that often.

I had a training session yesterday to check out how recovery is doing, since i was out for some time and did not train for weeks because of an infection, shills, fever, but i think i am at least going to survive the friday Düsseldorf open session. This will be a good warm up for the league beginning on monday.

 

[Tyce]

Oh I can get behind that. If Ican win by being a semi-passive brick wall, I'm basically "not losing" and usually that is reflected in ratings where I would drop up to 50-60 points if I lost, but gain only 1-3 if I win don't lose.

I usually do the same thing in training matches - to the point where there are multiple people who repeatedly keep saying things like "if you play a little less risky you wouldn't lose so many points". But it has brought me from having zero FH confidence and reliability to me liking my FH more than my BH now. And yes, I'm doing more BH attacks in training matches to get that up, too.
Sometimes I do have to take care to not get stuck in high attack mode and tune things down to a more reasonable level for real matches. I think I need to change up the intensity in training a bit more, too, so I have an easier time switching modes and adjusting to the opponent.

 

[jk1980]

I usually do the same thing in training matches - to the point where there are multiple people who repeatedly keep saying things like "if you play a little less risky you wouldn't lose so many points".

Yeah, i know that situation with these older guys that really think that it is the most important to win pointless training matches
On the other hand i can understand it, because these people have their "technique" that will never change so all they do in training matches is try tactics and strategies to win the match instead of improving strokes. each to their own.

I guess it is hard for people from the "outside" to judge what is a shot that is reasonable to take or attempt in a training match.
There are guys that try shots in training matches that i do know they could not even do 3 times out of 10 if they did tried it in a regular drill, so what's the point in trying something that has an incredibly low rate of success in a scenario where you are in need to react quickly ?
This one guy will push my first backspin serve into the net and instead of adjusting his push his next attempt is always to smash as hard as possible. Of course the next backspin serve will end up in the net. I guess that's the bliss of youth simply not giving a f*ck or simply not having the cognitive ability or maturity to decide what stroke to do. Proper stroke selection is what i think is the thing that will improve only by gathering experience and can not be drilled that well if you are a beginner with bad habits.

But it has brought me from having zero FH confidence and reliability to me liking my FH more than my BH now. And yes, I'm doing more BH attacks in training matches to get that up, too.

Same here, i force myself to use the right strokes even if they have less success rate, because if you dont hit them in training, you'll never trust it in game.

Sometimes I do have to take care to not get stuck in high attack mode and tune things down to a more reasonable level for real matches.

Especially in the off season where you probably only have training matches you might get into that attacking mood as default mode which could carry on over into the league which i am aware off and trying to remind myself that i shall not go gung ho in the league.
I was just debating with myself if i should just start the first set in league matches by playing for safety and checking out if the opponent is willing to lose the set, instead of me forcing a win.

I think I need to change up the intensity in training a bit more, too, so I have an easier time switching modes and adjusting to the opponent.

If i review my training matches i often see that i totally mix up all serves just for the sake of it instead of calmly observing where the opponent is standing and choosing the appropriate serve. That is what many old guys do quite well. It's quite often that i find them targeting the elbow with serves.

 

[Marvinn8686]

Anecdotes like these aren't as informative as you think they are when the level difference is so big between two players. A 2450 could beat a 1950 using long pips on the backhand, that doesn't mean that a fellow 1950 trying to beat this 1950 should switch to long pips to win.

The reason the 2450 beats the 1950 by pushing and blocking is because he has a 2450 push and block which a 1950 can do nothing about because the level difference is simply too big. No matter how safely another 1950 tries to play against a 1950, they aren't going to magically turn into a 2450 level pusher and blocker just because they decided to emphasize safety. The level of risk has nothing to do with why the 2450 won. The 2450 also can afford to play this way because they know that if things happened to get close or a point extended, they could finish the point whenever they feel like it.

But yes, for some players, more safety is what they need. For some, more aggression is what they need. Raising your floor doesn't always mean playing safer, it can also mean not pushing back 5 pushes per game when you're capable of attacking them, so that you aren't leaving free and easy points on the table.

So, it is a trap to say that the solution to raising your floor is always just playing safer or lower risk.

I have in my group a guy who really pushes and chops a lot, lets refer to him as "full time pusher". He is kind of main rival for me as he is training a lot and progressing within his style of play so even he always play the same, he is very consistent and a formidable opponent for me. There are also two much better guys who are two winged loopers trying to loop everything and playing them is a lot of fun trying to block and counterloop as much as possible before losing as usual. If these guys have no choice they will push or chop and guess what - their pushes are like two times heavier than the "full time pusher" guy. They could easily won a match against me just by means of pushing and nothing else. Hopefully, it is no fun for them so I can have some entertainment as well. So if I start to play full calculated trying to scrap some points they start doing the same and the result is the same and also no joy of playing.

 

[jk1980]

I have in my group a guy who really pushes and chops a lot, lets refer to him as "full time pusher". He is kind of main rival for me as he is training a lot and progressing within his style of play so even he always play the same, he is very consistent and a formidable opponent for me.

This is the ideal sparring partner for you. You know he wont attack and you can safely choose what ball to initiate your attack on. It's basically an infinite loop of looping and flicking opportunities. Got one of these guys as well and it helped alot to gain confidence to initiate the attack.

 

[Marvinn8686]

This is the ideal sparring partner for you. You know he wont attack and you can safely choose what ball to initiate your attack on. It's basically an infinite loop of looping and flicking opportunities. Got one of these guys as well and it helped alot to gain confidence to initiate the attack.

Yeah I am really loving our rivalry, we both improved during last year, he also got better at punishing every too-high-receive I give him with good smash. Also great guy personally, you cannot really get mad at when he wins. He plays every week in three different places, as you said people love having such training mate

 

[Archosaurus]

Anecdotes like these aren't as informative as you think they are when the level difference is so big between two players. A 2450 could beat a 1950 using long pips on the backhand, that doesn't mean that a fellow 1950 trying to beat this 1950 should switch to long pips to win.

The reason the 2450 beats the 1950 by pushing and blocking is because he has a 2450 push and block which a 1950 can do nothing about because the level difference is simply too big. No matter how safely another 1950 tries to play against a 1950, they aren't going to magically turn into a 2450 level pusher and blocker just because they decided to emphasize safety. The level of risk has nothing to do with why the 2450 won. The 2450 also can afford to play this way because they know that if things happened to get close or a point extended, they could finish the point whenever they feel like it.

But yes, for some players, more safety is what they need. For some, more aggression is what they need. Raising your floor doesn't always mean playing safer, it can also mean not pushing back 5 pushes per game when you're capable of attacking them, so that you aren't leaving free and easy points on the table.

So, it is a trap to say that the solution to raising your floor is always just playing safer or lower risk.

The pushes and blocks he was doing weren't anything special. Most of the blocks were to the exact same spot with the exact same quality repeatedly, and just waiting for the 1950 guy to miss. Granted maybe being able to always get it in the exact same spot in the exact same way without missing a single one is the difference.

The pushes were basically all soft and long, something you'd see a 1200 player do. The 1950 player kept missing his attacks against them.

I'm sure psychology is a big part of it, nerves and all.

EDIT: The point I'm making ISN'T that playing like that would work against another 2450. Or even a 1950 against another 1950. I'm just saying that sometimes that's all you actually have to do if the other guy decides to lose the game on his own.

 

[Tyce]

I played this guy 200, maybe 300 points below me a few seasons back. First game, I played exactly how he liked, bit of pace, half long to long, everything neutral or light topspin, and I had to *fight* to get it to 11-8.
The subsequent games I just blocked, dropped the ball low over the net with a bit of backspin, and he missed literally every single one of them to lose 11-0 11-0. 90% whacked straight into the net and the rest went out or whiffed. He couldn't stop attacking.

(I nearly took a bagel myself last Monday but managed to hit a net ball at 0-10 getting me that precious single point.)

 

[Archosaurus]

I played this guy 200, maybe 300 points below me a few seasons back. First game, I played exactly how he liked, bit of pace, half long to long, everything neutral or light topspin, and I had to *fight* to get it to 11-8.
The subsequent games I just blocked, dropped the ball low over the net with a bit of backspin, and he missed literally every single one of them to lose 11-0 11-0. 90% whacked straight into the net and the rest went out or whiffed. He couldn't stop attacking.

(I nearly took a bagel myself last Monday but managed to hit a net ball at 0-10 getting me that precious single point.)

Ironically sometimes the shots which "should be easy" to counter aren't because people don't train appropriate shots against them because it's not as sexy as doing multiball forehands all table or whatever.

Intermediate club level players at my club slap their head every time they net my accidental super duper mega high backspin serve, but the advanced players will put it away relatively successfully.

Otherwise there's honestly not even that much difference between them; and sometimes the intermediate players have on average higher shot quality because they're going all-out on every ball!

 

[jonol]

As amateur players with limited time to practice, I'd say it's best to just focus on whatever is losing you the most points.

As you improve, you move onto the next problem. As you get better, problems start to become less glaringly obvious and you can start to fine tune in ways that let you impose your game on different types of opponent.

 

[Archosaurus]

As amateur players with limited time to practice, I'd say it's best to just focus on whatever is losing you the most points.

As you improve, you move onto the next problem. As you get better, problems start to become less glaringly obvious and you can start to fine tune in ways that let you impose your game on different types of opponent.

It's probably not so different from how learning other 1v1 games is. One of the main focuses for beginners in fighting games after learning some of "the fundamentals" is getting over obvious skill checks; certain strategies that aren't objectively very strong, but cause huge issues to players who don't know the correct methods to deal with them and force a more fundamentals-based game from the opponent.

EDIT: Woah what happened there.

 

[Tyce]

Ironically sometimes the shots which "should be easy" to counter aren't because people don't train appropriate shots against them because it's not as sexy as doing multiball forehands all table or whatever.

Intermediate club level players at my club slap their head every time they net my accidental super duper mega high backspin serve, but the advanced players will put it away relatively successfully.

Otherwise there's honestly not even that much difference between them; and sometimes the intermediate players have on average higher shot quality because they're going all-out on every ball!

The interesting question is, do they have to go all out on every ball, and if so, why?
- is their technique not refined enough to make controlled, high spin contact?
- is their equipment inappropriate for good, high spin (friction) contact?
(Or both, of course)
It's not unusual to have people swinging for the bloody ropes just because that's the only way they can get their rubber functioning properly and retain any form of control over the ball. I honestly think I'm guilty of this exact thing.