Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Archosaurus]

Even if someone is good at pushing topspin, it's the kind of thing I associate with players who have spent 1000 hours learning to put the square peg into a round hole, so to speak.

If it works for them, that's nice. If I wanted to push topspin I'd just use long pips.

The way I've heard it explained online by the coaches is that when the opponent serves short, heavy topspin, they expect a flick because at a high level that's the high % shot, but that flick can be counterattacked easily. If you can push the topspin serve short and low then the server can't get his 3rd ball, but doing so is difficult, and generally only very advanced players can push it low, and only the elite of the elite can push it low and short.

I don't know if that's true or not from personal experience, but I do know I have never pushed a topspin serve short and low; it's only really either of the two, and even then the % is really terrible. I have never seen anyone do that either, nor have I heard of anyone in the clubs around here doing that. Not with inverted at least. So I'm dubious when someone says it's a basic skill or whatever.

 

[Tyce]

I do not have video, but there's been a few forum members bitching about my pushes...

No complaints here about your pushes against my Drunken Balls

 

[dingyibvs]

Pushing topspins short and low is more a footwork and recognition problem. I'm not sure if that's what @blahness is referring to. The typical side-top services are more side than top, they can be pushed reasonably low (i.e. twice net height, which is not very low and pretty easily flicked by higher level players) fairly easily and it doesn't take a very high level player to do so. Keeping it short though, again, requires very quick recognition and pretty good footwork.

 

[Archosaurus]

Pushing topspins short and low is more a footwork and recognition problem. I'm not sure if that's what @blahness is referring to. The typical side-top services are more side than top, they can be pushed reasonably low (i.e. twice net height, which is not very low and pretty easily flicked by higher level players) fairly easily and it doesn't take a very high level player to do so. Keeping it short though, again, requires very quick recognition and pretty good footwork.

So in other words if I feed you a short, heavy topspin serve and you stand 100% ready to receive it, you're gonna push it short and low to me every time? There's no recognition and footwork involved after all.

 

[dingyibvs]

So in other words if I feed you a short, heavy topspin serve and you stand 100% ready to receive it, you're gonna push it short and low to me every time? There's no recognition and footwork involved after all.

Yes, it's very easy to do once you've practiced it even a few times. You just need to catch it right off the bounce with the right racket angle. The problem is getting to it right off the bounce. You need to recognize that it's short, where it's gonna land, and move your feet there right as it lands. I can't ever seem to do it in time in games but when practicing against the robot it's a trivial matter even when I'm starting from a regular receive position. If I cheat and just close in to wait for it it's like shooting fish in a bucket, as I can pretty much just put my racket at the spot and barely move and the ball will bounce short and low.

 

[Archosaurus]

Yes, it's very easy to do once you've practiced it even a few times. You just need to catch it right off the bounce with the right racket angle. The problem is getting to it right off the bounce. You need to recognize that it's short, where it's gonna land, and move your feet there right as it lands. I can't ever seem to do it in time in games but when practicing against the robot it's a trivial matter even when I'm starting from a regular receive position. If I cheat and just close in to wait for it it's like shooting fish in a bucket, as I can pretty much just put my racket at the spot and barely move and the ball will bounce short and low.

Can you do it vs an actual serve?

 

[NextLevel]

The way I've heard it explained online by the coaches is that when the opponent serves short, heavy topspin, they expect a flick because at a high level that's the high % shot, but that flick can be counterattacked easily. If you can push the topspin serve short and low then the server can't get his 3rd ball, but doing so is difficult, and generally only very advanced players can push it low, and only the elite of the elite can push it low and short.

I don't know if that's true or not from personal experience, but I do know I have never pushed a topspin serve short and low; it's only really either of the two, and even then the % is really terrible. I have never seen anyone do that either, nor have I heard of anyone in the clubs around here doing that. Not with inverted at least. So I'm dubious when someone says it's a basic skill or whatever.

I have had coaches who drilled me on pushing topspin serves, both long and short. Ultimately I am a believer if you read the serve and train against it, you can always adapt to it. That said a playing level is roughly a playing level and most players below 2400 USATT struggle to serve and push short reasonably consistently with quality. The main reason why i still think it is worth working on is that there is a difference between giving your opponent the ball he likes and changing the tempo or varying returns at the lower levels. For example, I have played players who pushed with topspin or side topspin a lot. You miss the table so often because you are surprised that someone is pushing and there isn't backspin or no spin on the ball. But once you adapt (if you can adapt), it goes back to a battle over other things. But yes, the people trying to show me yhrse things were coaches who trained in high level environments. Maybe it is a cultural difference but they never made it sound like a standard return that everyone should be able to do. They just thought of it as something that if i could develop it would be great for my game since being able to return serves with variation can help against some players who are used to getting something predictable all the time. But this solution to predictability also gets harder to implement as you get better because better players also tend to be more adaptable.

 

[dingyibvs]

Can you do it vs an actual serve?

Yes, if I know what's coming. One of my clubmates is ~2000 level and he does it to my topspin services pretty often in real game situations. We used to have a BH anti player, maybe 1500-1600 level, who would do it often with his inverted side against my topspin services as well. So it's not THAT advanced of a skill. Like @NextLevel says, it just doesn't offer that much of an advantage once you get used to it, especially relative to how difficult it is to execute.

With that said, the utility of practicing it at lower levels isn't so much to use it during games IMO, it's to develop your touch game and your control of spin. If you can do it against topspin, then doing it against no spins should become much easier, for example, which can be quite useful as a lot of services at lower levels are not that spinny.

 

[jonol]

Nothing more dangerous than advice which is technically correct but completely irrelevant to the recipient.

Is it good to add variety to your serve receives? Yes.

Can Arch expect that he would have any meaningful opportunity to apply this skill at his level? No.

The opponents at his level are certainly not going to be:
1. consistently serving good quality, short topspin serves, and;
2. following them up with strong attacks if he flicks or drives them

Because if his opponents can do that, then they are already far above his level.

The problem isn't that the advice is wrong, it's just completely irrelevant.

 

[Archosaurus]

I have had coaches who drilled me on pushing topspin serves, both long and short. Ultimately I am a believer if you read the serve and train against it, you can always adapt to it. That said a playing level is roughly a playing level and most players below 2400 USATT struggle to serve and push short reasonably consistently with quality. The main reason why i still think it is worth working on is that there is a difference between giving your opponent the ball he likes and changing the tempo or varying returns at the lower levels. For example, I have played players who pushed with topspin or side topspin a lot. You miss the table so often because you are surprised that someone is pushing and there isn't backspin or no spin on the ball. But once you adapt (if you can adapt), it goes back to a battle over other things. But yes, the people trying to show me yhrse things were coaches who trained in high level environments. Maybe it is a cultural difference but they never made it sound like a standard return that everyone should be able to do. They just thought of it as something that if i could develop it would be great for my game since being able to return serves with variation can help against some players who are used to getting something predictable all the time. But this solution to predictability also gets harder to implement as you get better because better players also tend to be more adaptable.

I'm only really talking about matches. Maybe a few times in drills I've managed to push a no/top serve reasonably low and short by putting my own sidespin onto it. But that was after a couple hundred of the same serve when I got cheeky.

I feel like putting long side-top onto the receive when pushing backspin (especially with forehand) is a million times easier than pushing heavy, short back against topspin. The former I can even do if the time is right, and I've got a point or two vs unsuspecting Division 3 and 2 victims LOL. They just shake their head and laugh. I'm sure if I keep doing it they'd just counterspin it, though.

Yes, if I know what's coming. One of my clubmates is ~2000 level and he does it to my topspin services pretty often in real game situations, so it's not THAT advanced of a skill. Like @NextLevel says, it just doesn't offer that much of an advantage once you get used to it, especially relative to how difficult it is to execute.

With that said, the utility of practicing it at lower levels isn't so much to use it during games IMO, it's to develop your touch game and your control of spin. If you can do it against topspin, then doing it against no spins should become much easier, for example, which can be quite useful as a lot of services at lower levels are not that spinny.

I don't really believe this like at all, I'd have to see what your definition of doing it is.

Nothing more dangerous than advice which is technically correct but completely irrelevant to the recipient.

Is it good to add variety to your serve receives? Yes.

Can Arch expect that he would have any meaningful opportunity to apply this skill at his level? No.

The opponents at his level are certainly not going to be:
1. consistently serving good quality, short topspin serves, and;
2. following them up with strong attacks if he flicks or drives them

Because if his opponents can do that, then they are already far above his level.

The problem isn't that the advice is wrong, it's just completely irrelevant.

Even at Division 2~ the majority of people serve mostly back and nospin variations. Mainly because their counterspin is not yet developed enough to always punish weak loops or flicks. I don't know if Division 1 is better in this regard, but State players seem to MOSTLY serve no-spin and topspin, but they can also drop eachother's backspin serves short and low and force the opponent to push. This is somewhat true past Division 3 or so as well but it depends on the player.

Nobody at my level serves good quality short topspin serves. I'm not sure I remember the last time someone who wasn't in the upper divisions served that to me, if ever. If they will, it's gonna be a mostly sidespin backhand serve.

I'm the only one doing it *at all* so it catches people completely off guard because they've been conditioned with short = backspin. It doesn't even have to be very good, just as long as it's not super high and it's not backspin.

Sidespin is much more dominant at my level and a lot of guys can spin it up quite heavily and keep it low, but they struggle a lot if you give it back to them in any way especially to the elbow. If I had to estimate I'd say that basically almost all Div 8 to 6 players serve predominately long sidespin.

 

[NextLevel]

Yes, if I know what's coming. One of my clubmates is ~2000 level and he does it to my topspin services pretty often in real game situations. We used to have a BH anti player, maybe 1500-1600 level, who would do it often with his inverted side against my topspin services as well. So it's not THAT advanced of a skill. Like @NextLevel says, it just doesn't offer that much of an advantage once you get used to it, especially relative to how difficult it is to execute.

With that said, the utility of practicing it at lower levels isn't so much to use it during games IMO, it's to develop your touch game and your control of spin. If you can do it against topspin, then doing it against no spins should become much easier, for example, which can be quite useful as a lot of services at lower levels are not that spinny.

While sticky rubber belps, one could argue it is because your serves lack sufficient topspin. Such is the nature of these discussions, which is why the video always helps. And genuine nonspin requires a different approach from topspin so I would argue it isn't a continuum. With no spin, you need to generate the friction. With topspin you have something to fight against so you can actually drop/chop topspin short with more quality than no spin with more confidence and worse timing. This paradoxically is why some high level players don't like serving short heavy side topspin because they want to avoid the possibility of giving their opponent too much quality to work with on the return. The devil is often in the details in all these things

 

[dingyibvs]

While sticky rubber belps, one could argue it is because your serves lack sufficient topspin. Such is the nature of these discussions, which is why the video always helps. And genuine nonspin requires a different approach from topspin so I would argue it isn't a continuum. With no spin, you need to generate the friction. With topspin you have something to fight against so you can actually drop/chop topspin short with more quality than no spin with more confidence and worse timing. This paradoxically is why some high level players don't like serving short heavy side topspin because they want to avoid the possibility of giving their opponent too much quality to work with on the return. The devil is often in the details in all these things

I should clarify, I don't mean pushing no spins off the bounce, that's actually quite difficult as you mentioned. I meant pushing them at a later timing, e.g. my preference is while it's falling. It won't be as high quality, but it's a lot safer and gives you more options to drop short or long or with various spins. I think pushing topspins helps if you want to be able to push no spins short or at least low in those situations.

 

[NextLevel]

I should clarify, I don't mean pushing no spins off the bounce, that's actually quite difficult as you mentioned. I meant pushing them at a later timing, e.g. my preference is while it's falling. It won't be as high quality, but it's a lot safer and gives you more options to drop short or long or with various spins. I think pushing topspins helps if you want to be able to push no spins short or at least low in those situations.

And just about every high level coach will tell you that you need to take tbe ball off the bounce to push short unless you are an exotic creature in a Stars War movie. More seriously though I agree with your overall thoughts on feeling, just trying to communicate how hard these things can be to discuss in the abstract.

 

[Archosaurus]

I should clarify, I don't mean pushing no spins off the bounce, that's actually quite difficult as you mentioned. I meant pushing them at a later timing, e.g. my preference is while it's falling. It won't be as high quality, but it's a lot safer and gives you more options to drop short or long or with various spins. I think pushing topspins helps if you want to be able to push no spins short or at least low in those situations.

Now I really wanna see what exactly you're doing.

 

[Tyce]

Pushing a topspin short off the bounce feels closer to a chopblock or a dropshot than a regular push. I like doing it but it also feels like a pretty high risk thing to do. If there's not a lot of forward movement in the ball, it's a much safer shot to wait and push it with a flatter blade and a sharp digging stroke, but the big downside is you can't put that in the first 5-10 inches behind the net.

 

[dingyibvs]

Now I really wanna see what exactly you're doing.

You mean pushing no spins?

 

[blahness]

Pushing topspins short and low is more a footwork and recognition problem. I'm not sure if that's what @blahness is referring to. The typical side-top services are more side than top, they can be pushed reasonably low (i.e. twice net height, which is not very low and pretty easily flicked by higher level players) fairly easily and it doesn't take a very high level player to do so. Keeping it short though, again, requires very quick recognition and pretty good footwork.

Lol this guy, i never even said anything about short push (which is basically a bad faith extrapolation), just basic pushing long and low with heavy underspin vs everything which is basic af... even when i was playing 10 years ago as a beginner i could already do it lol.

It is really not rocket science - angle the blade perpendicular to the table, chop down during contact, and contact the side of the ball.

Literally, i would be highly surprised if USATT 2000 players actually didnt know how to do it, coz most of the even RC1200-1300 players here in Australia pretty much know how to do this. I even played 11 yr olds who could do this all day long. All the experienced grandpa players would happily push everything (yes even sidetopspin) back low to you lmao.

Of course, short push against topspin or sidetopspin serves is a pretty advanced technique but also not impossible.... mainly it is the footwork to actually catch it early which is difficult af if the other player is changing it up with long fast serves.

Why is it super useful? This ability means you can impose your spin on the opponents' spin, not just be a reflector. This makes your push receives way harder to deal with for the server, and because you're imposing your own spin, you are way less affected by incoming spin and thus your receives are also much more stable. With this skill, even if your receives pop up, it is actually still a very difficult ball to deal with for the opponent.

 

[NextLevel]

Australia's most famous coaches discuss the push without ever demonstrating it....

 

[Archosaurus]

You mean pushing no spins?

Pushing topspin and nospin with quality by taking it late on the fall. I'm trying to visualize it and having trouble with what it looks like. To me the trajectory feels like it'd make it impossible and you'd have to either give up height or spin.

@blahness

I've played people with 1400-1600 RC who can't push my nospin or topspin serves back. It looks like they're misreading it so it's hard to say if it's a technique or other thing.

I have a feeling like you're talking about chopping and not pushing, which is different and most people can do it to some capacity even if they're not choppers.

@NextLevel

Well, he did demonstrate it; just not against a ball. Not so important detail surely.

 

[NextLevel]

Pushing topspin and nospin with quality by taking it late on the fall. I'm trying to visualize it and having trouble with what it looks like. To me the trajectory feels like it'd make it impossible and you'd have to either give up height or spin.

@blahness

I've played people with 1400-1600 RC who can't push my nospin or topspin serves back. It looks like they're misreading it so it's hard to say if it's a technique or other thing.

I have a feeling like you're talking about chopping and not pushing, which is different and most people can do it to some capacity even if they're not choppers.

@NextLevel

Well, he did demonstrate it; just not against a ball. Not so important detail surely.

Yeah, I don't believe the omission of the ball in the demo is not as accidental as one might believe. Its a stroke I tend to use against lower rated players who attack easy pop ups viciously but tend to struggle to do the same when the ball is lower but giving balls that sit to the kinds of players I usually play against is just quasi-suicidal for my style.