Daily Table Tennis Chit Chat

[Haito]

Pushing topspin and nospin with quality by taking it late on the fall. I'm trying to visualize it and having trouble with what it looks like. To me the trajectory feels like it'd make it impossible and you'd have to either give up height or spin.

There are two muscle groups connected to your fingers, thumb and pointer is one, second group is the middle, ring and pinky. Muscles controlling them are routed a bit differently. I do not remember from the top of my head how exactly. When you tighten group 1, the wrist should be loose. When you tighten the muscles group 2 it locks your wrist into a straight position. If you have loose wrist by holding the racket with g1, and then tighten middle finger (using it as an example, since most people have most control over that one), the wrist shoots to straight. You can use this for brushing. That is how I've been taught. Same principles apply for motorcycle grip and throttle control, and many other domains. When looping backspin, you can use this to generate stupid amount of ARC. At least 2 people in Dusseldorf upon learning this went from netting every cut ball to getting them over the nett.

When pushing long, you start with loose wrist cocked up, tightening finger makes the wrist go straight, and relatively down. If you imagine the ball projected on side view of the table (left side is you (9, right is opponent 3), I brush on about 7 to get long, 9 to get short. Short touch with no added spin is touch no brush on 6:30pm ish. By brushing I mean follow a line tangent to a circle, and the contact point refers to the number on the clock.

There is also "scooping", but that one is hard and not reliable.

The guy who I quoted probably meant this by using fingers. I laid it out for a person as autistic and analytical as myself to understand. Same principle applies for serving. I did not find any way to serve stupid enough backspin to make even pros net the ball. (they might have just underestimated me cause I don't play very well, I am not even club level player, I am just an amateur, not even 5th league...)

 

[Archosaurus]

Yeah, I don't believe the omission of the ball in the demo is not as accidental as one might believe. Its a stroke I tend to use against lower rated players who attack easy pop ups viciously but tend to struggle to do the same when the ball is lower but giving balls that sit to the kinds of players I usually play against is just quasi-suicidal for my style.

There certainly seems to be a lot of theoretical table tennis going on around here. The first drill a coach made me do here when I showed up to a club was backhand flick against backspin serve from the forehand corner.

@Haito
Like I said, I'm not really interested in a theoretical explanation. I wanna see you guys do it. Having a hard time visualizing what we're talking about.

 

[blahness]

Pushing topspin and nospin with quality by taking it late on the fall. I'm trying to visualize it and having trouble with what it looks like. To me the trajectory feels like it'd make it impossible and you'd have to either give up height or spin.

@blahness

I've played people with 1400-1600 RC who can't push my nospin or topspin serves back. It looks like they're misreading it so it's hard to say if it's a technique or other thing.

I have a feeling like you're talking about chopping and not pushing, which is different and most people can do it to some capacity even if they're not choppers.

@NextLevel

Well, he did demonstrate it; just not against a ball. Not so important detail surely.

No way they cant push your topspin serves back if they know it is topspin. I play regularly with guys of that level - they can literally push everything. Even guys way below that level can. It is basically an over the table stroke so it is not a chop (like a Joo Se Hyuk chop).

Your terminology is also hurting you probably because you think that a push is a passive stroke, it is not. It looks like there is not much movement but in fact you need impulse from many parts of the body to make it happen. This is why others can do it and you cant.

But, tbh @Archosaurus you honestly need to fix a bit of your ego and actually have an open mind to learn.

Honestly, this episode again leads me to rethink my priorities, maybe spending time on the forums is a mistake and a complete waste of time.

 

[Archosaurus]

No way they cant push your topspin serves back if they know it is topspin. I play regularly with guys of that level - they can literally push everything. Even guys way below that level can. It is basically an over the table stroke so it is not a chop (like a Joo Se Hyuk chop).

Your terminology is also hurting you probably because you think that a push is a passive stroke, it is not. It looks like there is not much movement but in fact you need impulse from many parts of the body to make it happen. This is why others can do it and you cant.

But, tbh @Archosaurus you honestly need to fix a bit of your ego and actually have an open mind to learn.

Honestly, this episode again leads me to rethink my priorities, maybe spending time on the forums is a mistake and a complete waste of time.

No, they don't know it's topspin, that's the point. You can't actually do the skill if you can't ACTUALLY do it ie: push an actual real serve.

I'm amazed you know better than I do what I am thinking. It didn't even occur to me that I think the push is a passive stroke, I'm gonna have to go back and replay a lot of points with this new knowledge because I accidentally played an attacking push when really I should have been in the mindset that you can't do that. Guess that's just how egoistic I am!

EDIT: In regards to if spending time on the forums is a waste of time or not, that depends a lot on how you approach it. All I've seen you do is coach people and you don't really ask a lot of questions, so I assume your problem is you want people to listen to you. To achieve that you'll need to either be very convincing or have credibility.

I'm not the one who has never posted video of himself playing yet makes grand claims about my abilities.
I'm not the one who assumes constantly what other people can or cannot do based on a very small amount of information and assumes constantly what the belief systems of other people are based on a very small amount of information.
I'm not the one who makes grand claims about the abilities of low-level club players and claims they are all able to do things which goes against empirical evidence collected by coaches over decades of playing and coaching in clubs and analyzing what wins and loses points at various club levels.
I'm not the one who finds some new concept and applies that concept to everything and claims to be an innovator in sports education.

Lol...

 

[dingyibvs]

Pushing topspin and nospin with quality by taking it late on the fall. I'm trying to visualize it and having trouble with what it looks like. To me the trajectory feels like it'd make it impossible and you'd have to either give up height or spin.

@blahness

I've played people with 1400-1600 RC who can't push my nospin or topspin serves back. It looks like they're misreading it so it's hard to say if it's a technique or other thing.

I have a feeling like you're talking about chopping and not pushing, which is different and most people can do it to some capacity even if they're not choppers.

@NextLevel

Well, he did demonstrate it; just not against a ball. Not so important detail surely.

Pushing no spin will sacrifice some spin usually, and pushing topspin will sacrifice some height. However, pushing no spin is a bit easier to control direction and length, so you'd use those things to try to throw off your opponent. Pushing topspin can generate more spin, so the surprise of a push can often throw people off, and then the spin combined with a late reaction can often force a poor return.

 

[Archosaurus]

Pushing no spin will sacrifice some spin usually, and pushing topspin will sacrifice some height. However, pushing no spin is a bit easier to control direction and length, so you'd use those things to try to throw off your opponent. Pushing topspin can generate more spin, so the surprise of a push can often throw people off, and then the spin combined with a late reaction can often force a poor return.

Yeah okay but I didn't ask for that. I asked for footage.

 

[dingyibvs]

Yeah okay but I didn't ask for that. I asked for footage.

Sure, I recorded a few pushes to give you a general idea. I included the off the bounce push vs topspin as well but that's not one I use very often, the other two I do though. Of course, quality is higher than in actual games since I know what's coming. During games I usually focus more on keeping it low, resulting in 1) more errors pushing into the net, and 2) generally land a bit longer, especially vs topspin, so that they're more often half long.

 

[kindof99]

Sure, I recorded a few pushes to give you a general idea. I included the off the bounce push vs topspin as well but that's not one I use very often, the other two I do though. Of course, quality is higher than in actual games since I know what's coming. During games I usually focus more on keeping it low, resulting in 1) more errors pushing into the net, and 2) generally land a bit longer, especially vs topspin, so that they're more often half long.

For amateurs, pushing short topspin/no spin is somehow not a technique that one needs to master. Even for an USATT 2200 player, he does not need it in his arsenal.

 

[dingyibvs]

For amateurs, pushing short topspin/no spin is somehow not a technique that one needs to master. Even for an USATT 2200 player, he does not need it in his arsenal.

Master is a strong word, you don't really need to master anything at my level, for example, and I sure haven't mastered anything. With that said, what do you do with short no spin serves if not push it? That's a pretty common service at any level but especially at lower levels, and pushing is certainly my go to move against it.

 

[Haito]

Sure, I recorded a few pushes to give you a general idea. I included the off the bounce push vs topspin as well but that's not one I use very often, the other two I do though. Of course, quality is higher than in actual games since I know what's coming. During games I usually focus more on keeping it low, resulting in 1) more errors pushing into the net, and 2) generally land a bit longer, especially vs topspin, so that they're more often half long.

Nice work, in the first round almost all of them where short, some of them drifted half long, but they were decently low to the net. Good work. When I get to the training hall I will also try to record. I cannot record there when other people are around...

BTW lovely garage <3 So much space.

 

[RPB Enthusiast]

For amateurs, pushing short topspin/no spin is somehow not a technique that one needs to master. Even for an USATT 2200 player, he does not need it in his arsenal.

I agree mostly, but it also depends on who you're playing against. There's players at my club that do short topspin/no spin frequently so I resort to flicking it or pushing it. It's better to learn it and not use it vs not learn it and needing to use it when the time comes.

 

[Haito]

For amateurs, pushing short topspin/no spin is somehow not a technique that one needs to master. Even for an USATT 2200 player, he does not need it in his arsenal.

Welp, I do not agree of value-ing something in my arsenal, to get this shot done you need to practice two core elements:
- brushing
- controlling timing
- controlling the depth of the ball
- over the table footwork

Even if the skill of "pushing top spin short" is not "useful", doesn't mean learning this is not useful. It helps you so much to just learn all the stuff that is required to use this.

Regarding usefulness. More cards in your hand is always better imo. If you are gauging the usefulness of this... If you are opponent is older gentleman who tries to initiate looping rallies, serves top spin and jumps back after a serve, this is great response, it will force him to break his plan and mindset. If you play against a guy who plays a rubber that is "reversing the spin", this is great after you played backspin and you have no idea how much of it comes back. I also play this when I am exhausted, and need to slow down the game. You can also argue this is a stepping stone to developing a chop block.

 

[dingyibvs]

So I've been practicing starting my BH swing with my elbow further back this week, and it's working super well! I had a lot of robot practices, and then yesterday went to the club and did some random FH/BH practices. The guy I was hitting with was a much lower level player, he couldn't really keep the ball to one spot anyway but can usually handle at least 1-2 loops from me so it made for great FH/BH transition practice for me. I was able to execute the new elbow motion surprisingly well, especially for how little I've practiced it.

The new FH elbow motion was another matter altogether. I really had to focus on motion my elbow forward on FH shots, but it made a surprisingly big difference. There isn't much time to backswing in these random FH/BH practices, so it's super important to go forward with the stroke or else there just isn't enough forward momentum. I would end up barely brushing the ball, and a lot of balls would go into the net. When I was able to push my elbow forward though I was able to get much better contact, significantly improving both consistency and quality.

I've found that just thinking about new strokes helps a lot with setting them into my brain, so I'll try to do more of that in an effort to change my FH stroke.

I agree mostly, but it also depends on who you're playing against. There's players at my club that do short topspin/no spin frequently so I resort to flicking it or pushing it. It's better to learn it and not use it vs not learn it and needing to use it when the time comes.

OK, you know what, I think I misread his post. He meant pushing topspin/nospins so that they land short, not pushing topspin/nospins that are short. I largely agree with that for topspins, though being able to push no spins short IMO is a critical skill once you get above 1600. Above that level you'll meet many players who can reliably open up against most balls that are long, and that'll put most amateurs under a lot of pressure.

Even against topspins, most people backup a bit after serving it, as they expect either a flick or a pop up. If you can push it half-long and not too high, a lot of people will be surprised by it and give you a late push, thus allowing you to open up first. Even if they don't back up, those pushes are usually loaded with backspin and hangs a bit high, which is actually more difficult for a lot of amateurs to attack than heavy backspins that are long but low.

 

[Archosaurus]

Sure, I recorded a few pushes to give you a general idea. I included the off the bounce push vs topspin as well but that's not one I use very often, the other two I do though. Of course, quality is higher than in actual games since I know what's coming. During games I usually focus more on keeping it low, resulting in 1) more errors pushing into the net, and 2) generally land a bit longer, especially vs topspin, so that they're more often half long.

The % is about as bad as I'd expect to say that you can't actually do it vs an actual ball, but thanks for the video. Some of those towards the forehand* would probably be killer shots at club level.

I would not say it's a "critical skill" above 1600; if it was, it'd be what wins points reliably. How many points in a match do you win doing this? 0? 1? I would dare say you win more points at most levels by getting the first topspin shot on the table not super high and not super slow.

 

[NextLevel]

Sure, I recorded a few pushes to give you a general idea. I included the off the bounce push vs topspin as well but that's not one I use very often, the other two I do though. Of course, quality is higher than in actual games since I know what's coming. During games I usually focus more on keeping it low, resulting in 1) more errors pushing into the net, and 2) generally land a bit longer, especially vs topspin, so that they're more often half long.

Awesome stuff, you would probably get better quality results with more sidespin in the pushes.

 

[NextLevel]

The % is about as bad as I'd expect to say that you can't actually do it vs an actual ball, but thanks for the video. Some of those towards the backhand would probably be killer shots at club level.

I would not say it's a "critical skill" above 1600; if it was, it'd be what wins points reliably. How many points in a match do you win doing this? 0? 1? I would dare say you win more points at most levels by getting the first topspin shot on the table not super high and not super slow.

The question as you have phrased it is a bit loaded, a lot of skills at the amateur level are really more about whether they suit how you play vs whether they are essential to master, there are people with relatively crappy pushes, loops etc at all levels. And rarely does a shot/technique in isolation win a point, what it is supposed to do is either create opportunities or take them away from your opponent.

Finally, a comprehensive understanding of spin is important to avoid pissing away as many points as possible before adjusting. I can say that there was a time as an amateur when I never really understood what no spin was and I was already around 1800 USATT. But when I understood it, it started to make more sense to me when someone would serve me backspin, I would push the ball, and it would pop up and they would attack it hard. And since I could at that time not overcome my innate instinct to push, doing returns like what @dingyibvs demonstrated or sideswiping the ball to try to at least make it move a little and not make it pop up became a default return and then improved my receive. But if you cannot adjust to possibilities and you are stuck in the backspin/topspin axis, no spin confounds you terribly and it isn't easy to create safe solutions that are offensive to it, especially when you are dealing with an opponent you want to take minimal risk against.

Did the sideswipe pushes win me points? Not that I remember thought they probably did. But did they help me at critical junctures in many big games or get me comfortable when I was struggling? 100%.

So what @dingyibvs is doing makes his understanding of the game more complete. If you don't spend time training, it might not have much "critical" value to you. But for understanding the game better and becoming a more robust player, it is definitely important once you put in a lot of training hours.

 

[Archosaurus]

The question as you have phrased it is a bit loaded, a lot of skills at the amateur level are really less about whether they suit how you play vs whether they are essential to master, there are people with relatively crappy pushes, loops etc at all levels. And rarely does a shot/technique in isolation win a point, what it is supposed to do is either create opportunities or take them away from your opponent.

Finally, a comprehensive understanding of spin is important to avoid pissing away as many points as possible before adjusting. I can say that there was a time as an amateur when I never really understood what no spin was and I was already around 1800 USATT. But when I understood it, it started to make more sense to me when someone would serve me backspin, I would push the ball, and it would pop up and they would attack it hard. And since I could at that time not overcome my innate instinct to push, doing returns like what @dingyibvs demonstrated or sideswiping the ball to try to at least make it move a little and not make it pop up became a default return and then improved my receive. But if you cannot adjust to possibilities and you are stuck in the backspin/topspin axis, no spin confounds you terribly and it isn't easy to create safe solutions that are offensive to it, especially when you are dealing with an opponent you want to take minimal risk against.

So what @dingyibvs is doing makes his understanding of the game more complete. If you don't spend time training, it might not have much "critical" value to you. But for understanding the game better and becoming a more robust player, it is definitely important once you put in a lot of training hours.

I didn't say it's not useful practice. I just think it's misleading to say that something you successfully perform maybe once in a best of 5, but realistically not at all, is "critical" to your scoring in that match. The guy who does it twice would always win.

 

[Tyce]

It's not about winning points with this, it's about not losing them due to popping up and giving the opportunity to your opponent. There's always a couple of points in a match where you aren't sure what's happening to the ball and you need a solid safe shot to cover that.
If my opponent is popping up my short serves, guess what I will be doing a lot?
It's absolutely critical to be able to receive short using a push. Not as much at my level, since people usually don't serve properly short at all, and when they do it's backspin. I like to serve an open short ball myself, though.
But if I look up even one league higher, this stuff is used quite often, and practicing with those guys I really need to keep things shorter and lower.

 

[Archosaurus]

It's not about winning points with this, it's about not losing them due to popping up and giving the opportunity to your opponent. There's always a couple of points in a match where you aren't sure what's happening to the ball and you need a solid safe shot to cover that.
If my opponent is popping up my short serves, guess what I will be doing a lot?
It's absolutely critical to be able to receive short using a push. Not as much at my level, since people usually don't serve properly short at all, and when they do it's backspin. I like to serve an open short ball myself, though.
But if I look up even one league higher, this stuff is used quite often, and practicing with those guys I really need to keep things shorter and lower.

Sure, it's a fair point about it making all of your receives better in general.

But I would argue that at any club level nobody can push short reliably, against anything. I've counted and it happens about 5% of the time. Even our National level players do not reliably do it against eachother. Most of the time people are pushing barely half-long but the other guy feels insecure about it and pushes it to make sure; which I suppose produced the same effect as a short push!

If you can find video of let's say a 1800 rated match where both players are reliably pushing short, then I'll eat my shorts.

 

[OvrChkn]

I'm sure someone out there can do it; but I've talked to coaches, top-division amateurs and semi-pros about serving and receiving and the sentiment is the same, and a lot of ex-pro-turned-coach online coaches also claim the same. I think Heming Hu claims that "no club level player can push topspin low" which is pretty absolutist but I'm sure he isn't just making it up, he coaches a lot of club level players and still competes in tourneys sometimes so he sees what they can do.

I think people are not appreciating sometimes how incredibly difficult some things are that they act like are really simple things; maybe lack of filming themselves and seeing that they fail at it 95% of the time? Before I filmed anything I had those kind of ideas more than I do now and I thought I was "quite good" at something that I only succeed at maybe 5% of the time. You tend to only remember the big winners and not all of the times you just barely missed.

Many of the ex-CNT online coaches believe that if you can attack half-high balls with 70% consistency, you're already an advanced player. In China that means 2000 rating, or about 2200-2300 USATT supposedly.

I won't comment on the last part but I will say it is adorable to watch what I believe are grown men use new words and concepts they just learned about to provide the hypothesis and solution to every other issue. I gotta work on my split-step!

EDIT: Heming Hu source at 2:07:

Also found similar sentiment to the half-high ball thing, maybe it was even this video I was thinking about, at 0:10:

The left leg placement is interesting in the second video. I'm assuming that he's treating it as if the ball is coming long, but I've been taught to use the right leg as a guide to cutoff the ball and it's pretty adjustable for the half-long and long balls as well as different heights.

A lot of 1500+ USATT players at my club and in the state can push/chopblock on short topspin, which will in all likelihood have more sidespin than top, so getting the push on the side of the ball helps a lot for control. The typical response is to go for the wide short forehand or long backhand with it. I just opt to flick or drive it with a more closed angle if I recognize it and it's high enough. Recognizing the low, slow topspins is tricky.