Technique discussion fh topspin

[lightspin]

But he was referring to what the C license advised in teaching children, not how he himself should play.

Well after the video he did say this:

"I could achieve the same quality with a more open racket instead of closed like in this video. Which one should I stick with? My subconscious has the more closed racket programmed currently."

So I decided to chime in. In any case, he is wise to just parrot whatever is necessary to pass the exam and get the license. However in the future if he is coaching himself or others he should coach what makes sense to him.

 

[lightspin]

This video might help inform the discussion. But maybr bot.

I have learned on the TTD forums, even if you have advice directly from players who have won gold medals at the World Championships, members will disagree or find said advice harmful LOL.

 

[NetProphet]

tbh the multiball feeding seemed to have quite little backspin in it (seeing the slow motion of the feeder) which let you have an easy time blasting through the ball which is fine for this kind of low backspin ball.

I would disagree with you here.
My experience (and indeed my coaching received) has said that the more backspin there is on the ball the more you should hit into the ball when looping.

Very light and upward brushing against very heavy backspin will always go into the net.

You need that sponge time to grab the ball before it flies downward, so you can give it the pop it needs to get it over the net.
I know there are variations on this and different racket angles to consider but I've always found hitting through to be more consistent V heavy BS.

 

[jk1980]

That sounds like a personal preference and experience and might be down to your technique. The general rule for serve receive is though: "if you need to push and can't open up, then push very spinny with good placement so that the only way the opponent can open up is slow and spinny". If heavy backspin balls where generally easier to loop kill, nobody would receive with heavy backspin

 

[Yuomay]

This video might help inform the discussion. But maybe not.

I really like this Channel, the quality of the content is amazing. Helps me really think about technique from a different perspective.

One concept she explained was about matching your backswing speed with the incoming ball speed. Always start your backswing when the ball passes the net. I haven’t watched this video yet though (I’m grinding the backhand first)

I’d say to train this do multiball and have different speeds. Always start your backswing when the ball passes over the net .

 

[boretennis]

This video might help inform the discussion. But maybe not.

she has just such useful high-quality channel, and this one addresses most of my problems

 

[NextLevel]

That sounds like a personal preference and experience and might be down to your technique. The general rule for serve receive is though: "if you need to push and can't open up, then push very spinny with good placement so that the only way the opponent can open up is slow and spinny". If heavy backspin balls where generally easier to loop kill, nobody would receive with heavy backspin

With the modern ball having less spin and even with that the ability to counter being paramount I find the speed and height of the push more important than the spin. And nowadays, heavier backpsin balls are easier to attack with power and quality, the lighter and faster ones are easier to overshoot the table ff the oppponent tries to apply too much power. A lot of it is simply about what is working and mind games.

 

[NextLevel]

tbh the multiball feeding seemed to have quite little backspin in it (seeing the slow motion of the feeder) which let you have an easy time blasting through the ball which is fine for this kind of low backspin ball. If you are able to to multiball feed with proper backspin, you might ask the teacher to demonstratehis looping technique and then you feed heavy backspin to him. I bet he will fail to consistently loop it without breaking his idea of technique.

Of course your w968 h3n setup feels easier to control, especially if you tend to go with too much power rather then too few power.
With the same amount of power and acceleration you use with the w968/h3n you would probably drill holes into the wall behind the table if you used your korbel with bouncy t19.

especially with your h3n you should be able to feed heavy backspin and ridicule the "trainer/teacher". In germany getting that trainer license actually does not require you to be of a certain level yourself, so basically somebody with below 1000 TTR could be trainer and even if he could not lift heavy backspin if their life depended on it they still would be able to get that basic license.

It is fairly difficult to feed very heavy backspin during multiball. Maybe out of a serve and push, sure but just from the hand, you won't get the build up unless you chop.

 

[NetProphet]

That sounds like a personal preference and experience and might be down to your technique. The general rule for serve receive is though: "if you need to push and can't open up, then push very spinny with good placement so that the only way the opponent can open up is slow and spinny". If heavy backspin balls where generally easier to loop kill, nobody would receive with heavy backspin

I think it's down to recognising heavy and light backspin balls and choosing the most effective way of dealing with them.
I have found that there is an evolution after first learning to loop backspin that teaches different ways of looping each type of spin.
For example I know a player (a better player than me) who, against heavy or light backspin balls, can slow loop with extreme rotation OR power through it with more speed, against almost anything.
He chooses different approaches for different players depending on what the can deal with because some people can deal with spin and some are better at blocking faster loops.
I speak quite a bit with him and occasionally we train together and his usual approach is, the heavier the backspin the more comfortable he is to snack through it.
Anyway my main point is that there are options available depending on ability but the consensus we've arrived at (me, him & coach) is that powering through more gives more consistent results V the heavy backspin.
Only felt the inclination to mention it as it was the opposite of what you'd said above.
Not being condescending here at all, I know my level doesn't place me where I can advise most peo but it may be something to experiment with on your end? Or not 🤷

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

My opinion is that when dealing with backspin the most important is … the footwork !
I think that’s where extra effort should be made.

If you are in a good position, you can be confident to play with power against backspin even if often the better choice can still be the slower loop.

The problem is actually the defender / pusher is not only trying to give you backspin but also trying to give it where you don’t expect it or to move you so if you play while being on the move it’s impossible to play with power , it’s an almost guaranteed miss.

 

[NextLevel]

For some reason my w968 h3n setup feels much easier to control than the t19 korbel setup.

Easier to drive backspin with harder and tackier sponge.

 

[sebi]

I think it's down to recognising heavy and light backspin balls and choosing the most effective way of dealing with them.
I have found that there is an evolution after first learning to loop backspin that teaches different ways of looping each type of spin.
For example I know a player (a better player than me) who, against heavy or light backspin balls, can slow loop with extreme rotation OR power through it with more speed, against almost anything.
He chooses different approaches for different players depending on what the can deal with because some people can deal with spin and some are better at blocking faster loops.
I speak quite a bit with him and occasionally we train together and his usual approach is, the heavier the backspin the more comfortable he is to snack through it.
Anyway my main point is that there are options available depending on ability but the consensus we've arrived at (me, him & coach) is that powering through more gives more consistent results V the heavy backspin.
Only felt the inclination to mention it as it was the opposite of what you'd said above.
Not being condescending here at all, I know my level doesn't place me where I can advise most peo but it may be something to experiment with on your end? Or not 🤷

i agree. If there is a lot of spin already the ball has more curve and goes easier on the table.
When the backspin ball has very little spin, you have to generate the spin yourselfe so have to brush more and go more forward, so for me personally its a higher risk shot

 

[NetProphet]

Well after the video he did say this:

"I could achieve the same quality with a more open racket instead of closed like in this video. Which one should I stick with? My subconscious has the more closed racket programmed currently."

He did say that about his own technique afterwards but your points (1, 2 & 3) were all referring to the kid coaching so I wasn't sure you'd realised it was directed for coaching children as your points were all strongly worded specifically against that part.

 

[NextLevel]

i agree. If there is a lot of spin already the ball has more curve and goes easier on the table.
When the backspin ball has very little spin, you have to generate the spin yourselfe so have to brush more and go more forward, so for me personally its a higher risk shot

Spin can help and hurt. As a coach once told me, if you don't want to counter heavy spin, don't push so heavy to your opponent.

 

[jk1980]

With the modern ball having less spin and even with that the ability to counter being paramount I find the speed and height of the push more important than the spin.

First off the statement was that playing "hard" against a more heavy backspin ball was easier or more successful. This is not true for most players, especially considering the average skill level of the forum members seeking advice here.

And nowadays, heavier backpsin balls are easier to attack with power and quality, the lighter and faster ones are easier to overshoot the table ff the oppponent tries to apply too much power. A lot of it is simply about what is working and mind games.

again this might be true for good players which are way past the average person in this forum, but of what worth is it to mention it here ? That is stuff for people who don't need to doubt if to loop or ball or not, but rather can choose different ways of responding to certain balls and have the luxury to be able to choose between them without sacrificing much of the success rate. Good luck getting as successful with hard loop killing heavy backspin balls like with simply spinning the hell out of it with an higher arc.

My experience with lower level players is that they learn to loop topspin or empty balls first and at that stage struggle against backspin. THen they slowly learn how to cope with backspin and perhaps a year or two later they will be confident to loop more heavy backspin. If we reduce the question simply to "is it easier to spinny loop a heavy backspin ball" the answer has to be yes for most. If we take NetProphets line of "its easier to hard loop a spinny ball" we can easily disprove it, by seeing the 101 of playing against defenders where you loop one ball, the defender chops you loop once more and latest on the next return you push it back, because the backspin has increased so much that is is way too risky to attack hard and hence you ought to push it back once before you loop the next ball.
If NetProphets argument was true you would simply loop spinny to the defender, he chops and you continue that loop until there is really much backspin in his chop so that you easily hard loop kill it, which is again not happening in a scenario that would be true for most of the forum members.

 

[Zezima]

I would disagree with you here.
My experience (and indeed my coaching received) has said that the more backspin there is on the ball the more you should hit into the ball when looping.

Very light and upward brushing against very heavy backspin will always go into the net.

You need that sponge time to grab the ball before it flies downward, so you can give it the pop it needs to get it over the net.
I know there are variations on this and different racket angles to consider but I've always found hitting through to be more consistent V heavy BS.

I didn't read the entire discussion but I can lift a heavy backspin ball with just the wrist maybe slightly forearm with a horizontal racket angle. ofc it will be slow and have a higher arc and end up short(length). So I would need to test it again what you said but I don't buy it (yet) that you need a thicker contact and that otherwise it will go into the net.

 

[Zezima]

I think the consensus is that with the plastic ball you do not have to drop the arm as much since it is much less spin. As long as you have power and can move the arm fast. I believe in bending the legs instead ang go up a bit ther, then try to go forward in the stroke. If you learn to go up and down to much and get good power in the ball it will go out all the time. But i do think you need to drop somewhat otherwise it will be hard to play slower, the ball will bite down.

Do not understand what you mean with lifting the elbow. As long as you go forward in the stroke?

Regarding your forehand loop i notice most that you have your elbow bent and racket facing forward a lot, so get pretty stiff in the forearm. I think Dan play like this to much aswell. I believe you will have a harder time to get good quality in half long, almost short pushes, need to get use of the foreharm snap on those balls to get spin and since it is little space.
Since you seem pretty good at moving the body i think you will get more power if you can relax a bit more in the arm and try to get it a bit more straight, then the power from the body also transfer better to the arm. If the arm is to much bent in albow the arm get more stiff.

Then technique is very very relative. I have been coaching part time for 15 years. Met a lot of coaches, several national coaches. There is always different ideas and focus.

I believe in trying to do multiball, then if the quality is good and it works for match play then the technique is good. So if you can get good quality in half long balls with current technique then obiously it works.

Also believe that better players that have playey for a while, like you, that it is important to always try to play some footwork and irregular exercises and try to start with serve. Have some players that i feel that they almost develop backwards becuase they want to do a lot olf warm up and just play block agaionst forehand loop. Then they learn to turn up the body to early and stand still.

Keep up the good work

I am going through the comments again and wanted to add here that I liked the quality of my balls which I mentioned earlier. And I do agree I can't hit like this on half long balls and usually what happens is I step forwards with my right leg have my racket angle horizontal unless I know I can pressure more and it has almost no backspin then I close it just a little and go more forwards.

Right now I am experimenting with getting my legs into the shot (very exhausting after just 50sec of Multiball) it's burning a lot. Also risking a lot with the speed. Since I can open up slowly very "safely" already this is what I got told and am working on aswell. I slowly start to face players who can smash my slower open ups so I agree with this next step that I should learn to open up more aggressively. And then I have more options and can vary more in my matches depending on what they struggle more.

In the book that they give us there are 9 pictures of the fh topspin against backspin and you can clearly see how patrick franziska drops his right shoulder. You can find the video on the internet from the official germany table tennis account where he demonstrates all of the shots that are in the book.
So why on earth was he so "adamant"? not sure if thats the right word to teach the kids with parallel shoulders? He only said dropping the right shoulder is oldschool and should not be taught anymore and you will lose points in technical aspect if you do it that way.

 

[Zezima]

Well after the video he did say this:

"I could achieve the same quality with a more open racket instead of closed like in this video. Which one should I stick with? My subconscious has the more closed racket programmed currently."

So I decided to chime in. In any case, he is wise to just parrot whatever is necessary to pass the exam and get the license. However in the future if he is coaching himself or others he should coach what makes sense to him.

ideally I want to teach the kids the right way from the beginning. Right now I am overflooded with many different information that even I for myself get confused a lot. Especially the chinese videos confused me the most. Maybe because I try to combine the european teachings with the chinese style.

Just as an example: I was trying to understand my forearm usage more. Then I found a chinese video talking about how we use our forearm wrong and that pros like ML and FZD don't use it on some shots where they don't need to clear the net. Then watching it in slowmo I could see them having their arm almost straight at contact of the ball. So I thought alright forearm snap should only be used against backspin balls or balls where I need to clear the net.

But here I got told to always use forearm snap no matter what ball I get. Same with the shoulder drop even though in the fuckin book they give us the example shows that he is dropping his shoulder. I just hate how many information there is out and everyone saying something different. Is this sport really so hard that you can't have a standardized teaching?

 

[Der_Echte]

This video might help inform the discussion. But maybe not.

This particular vid has dozens of useful nuggets of info. There is no singular answer to questions in TT, but this coach is sensible and clearly articulates concepts.

 

[Zezima]

That sounds like a personal preference and experience and might be down to your technique. The general rule for serve receive is though: "if you need to push and can't open up, then push very spinny with good placement so that the only way the opponent can open up is slow and spinny". If heavy backspin balls where generally easier to loop kill, nobody would receive with heavy backspin

but I got told if you give them heavy backspin push and they open up that ball, that means they had to overwrite the backspin that you gave them. Let's assume you gave them a lot of backspin so if they open up they have slightly more as a topspin now that you will struggle to block.

Like that information changed my game in a way that I sometimes give them light backspin so if they loop I can block it easier since I struggle more against slow spinny loops more.

Then I tried spinsight a year ago or so. And they said you generate the most topspin on a block ball and not vs underspin because against backspin you have to overwrite the backspin that is on the ball so achieving max spin is not possible.

So I got confused even more. Like what should I do then?