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  1. StuartMarquis is offline
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    #1

    General dislike of LP's?

    Am I just imagining it, or is their a general dislike of LP players at the lower levels of table tennis? I play in the league of a relatively small UK city. It sometimes feels like I get frowns from other players when they find out I'm using a long pimple rubber on my back hand. Rather than acknowledging that they need to change their game in order to play a LP player, it sometimes feels like they think I'm cheating or "cutting corners" by using an LP!

    I also play a bit of golf and I know that certain golf clubs (chippers, hybrids) are frowned upon by certain sectors of the golfing community as they perceive them as clubs that cuts corners with developing proper golf technique...does the same sort of thing exist in table tennis with LP's, and I suppose anti-spin rubbers might get the same sort of treatment too?

    To give a bit of background on myself; I'm in my mid 30's and have only been playing TT for about 2.5 years. I started out with inverted rubbers on both sides but my game moved forward considerably last summer when I switched to a LP on my BH. I would describe my overall game as a modern defensive one where I generally favour the BH over the FH. FH is primarily loops and smashes, the backhand is blocks, chops and topspin loops and smashes.

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    #2
    I think it does cut corners like you said, for me i find the use of LP reasonable for older players (over 40 yo.), they don't have great mobility so they just block the ball with LP and win points with the wobble effect.

    I'm 31 and also a defender like yourself, it's hard for me to keep up with the younger players and sometimes i think of getting one of those rubbers.... but I don't like the idea of winning points beacuse of the rubbers instead of my own techique/skill

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    #3
    I have a spare pimple set up for chopping practise and I play LP pips players all the time. I find it infuriating sometimes though when you do an amazing shot/serve and they just return the ball with 10x the amount of spin you produced on it in the first place all because they use LP's... Other than that I find that if you play them a lot, you forget they even use LP unless they are a chopper.

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    #4
    I'm 31 and also a defender like yourself, it's hard for me to keep up with the younger players and sometimes i think of getting one of those rubbers.... but I don't like the idea of winning points beacuse of the rubbers instead of my own techique/skill
    I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that type of criticism. All the different types of rubbers have their own playing characteristics, and even players that only play with inverted will choose a different rubber and different sponge thickness etc to make the ball behave differently...and will then develop their technique in synthesis with that rubber in order to maximise the key strengths that it's design was intended to promote. If you want a sport where all points are won by player ability and technique without the equipment used adding any additional variable, then we need to have standard "off the shelf" bats that offer no choice of blade type or rubber variety (or at least a much more regulated sport that places far greater restrictions on approved rubbers etc).

    I'm also a bit dubious of the suggestion that LP somehow adds an automatic advantage. Sure, there's things you can do with a LP rubber that you can't do with inverted rubbers...but that door swings both ways and there's plenty of things that LP's don't do very well at compared to inverted. So ultimately, using an LP over an inverted is essentially a trade-off where you gain some things but loose others. If LP's were some kind of magic rubber that won the point for you, then why is it that only a minority of players use them at any level within the sport?

    Can you elaborate as to what corners you believe are being cut by using an LP compared to an inverted? The ways I see it, both rubbers play differently and you need to develop different sets of skills to play each one (and play against each one). I play better with an LP on my Bh, but presumably that's not true of everyone otherwise we'd all be using LP's. Sure, LP's and inverted are very different rubbers, but I just don't get this argument that one should be seen as a corner-cutting 'cheater' rubber whereas the other isn't.

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    #5
    Quote Originally Posted by StuartMarquis
    I started out with inverted rubbers on both sides but my game moved forward considerably last summer when I switched to a LP on my BH.
    So, a question would be, what do you think made your game move forward? Was it the rubber, or did you just get better?

    If you are a defensive player, I think it makes perfect sense to play with pips. I think, for the people who have a problem with pips, the cure is to play against more people who use pips so you know how to play against them better.

    But pips can help someone with certain aspects of the game. All of a sudden you don't have to read spin half as well. And whatever spin your opponent gives you you can slow the spin down a little, add to it or keep it about the same depending on the technique you use with your pips. Because the spin is going in the opposite direction, it gets called spin reversal but it is really the same spin moving the other way. You have not changed the rotation on the ball, just the direction the ball is going. It was moving away from the opponent; now it is moving towards the opponent. So if you know what you are doing, heavy topspin can come back as heavy, medium or light underspin and or you can also make that go back dead. With grippy, smooth rubber you have to read the opponent's spin and put your own spin on the ball. That being said, the higher level players who use pips read the opponent's spin and use it much more effectively than a lower level pips player would. And that is just like with smooth rubbers. Higher level players are better than lower level players. After a certain point, you have to start to know what you are doing.

    So, pips alone can only get you a moderate amount of level improvement and then you have to do the work of learning how to really use them and play effectively with them. And there is an art to using long pips well and that is worth learning and working on.

    And again--for the guys who don't like people who play with long pips--it is really their problem. All you have to do is play against long pips enough and you start understanding and seeing what is going to come back. Even when a player is good and twiddles his racket well you start knowing how to play against them and seeing what is on the ball when it is coming back to you.

    And if you have a pips player and a smooth player and the pips player plays at a higher level, the pips player will usually win even if the smooth player does not understand that the pips player is higher level, even if the technique does not look higher level. And if the smooth player is the higher level player, he will usually win regardless of the pips.

    So, don't worry about the people who can't deal with the fact that you are using a piece of equipment that helped your game.

    I know, the way I play, pips would only make me worse. Or I would have to change my style, which I don't want to do. So pips don't always make someone better. But if they work for your style, they will. Now go out and learn how to really use them so that you can totally frustrate those guys who get angry at you because they don't know how to play against pips. hahaha.

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    #6
    So, a question would be, what do you think made your game move forward? Was it the rubber, or did you just get better?
    Both! The way I look at it, there's quite a wide range or approved TT rubbers that all have different playing characteristics (and that's true both across different rubber types, but also to a lesser degree within different rubber type categories!) and there's also a wide range of differing playing styles that different individuals will naturally gravitate towards. It stands to reason, therefore, that some people will naturally play better with some rubber combinations than they will with others...and once you find your own natural rubber types you can combine that natural affinity with your ability to nurture and improve your technique through training...and it's that combination of nature and nurture that will bring out the best TT in the player.

    Of course, all of that only touches upon how a player can develop with their choice of rubbers, but there is another dimension to consider...and that's how well an opponent can deal with them. My basic theory is that only a minority of TT players have a "natural affinity" to LP, so LP players naturally have a double-whammy working in favour of the LP player; not only is it the better rubber for them...but because they're in a minority of players who have a natural affinity to LP, most other players have a lack of experience with playing against LP which effectively gives the LP player yet another advantage in match-play.

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    #7
    Quote Originally Posted by StuartMarquis
    Both! The way I look at it, there's quite a wide range or approved TT rubbers that all have different playing characteristics (and that's true both across different rubber types, but also to a lesser degree within different rubber type categories!) and there's also a wide range of differing playing styles that different individuals will naturally gravitate towards. It stands to reason, therefore, that some people will naturally play better with some rubber combinations than they will with others...and once you find your own natural rubber types you can combine that natural affinity with your ability to nurture and improve your technique through training...and it's that combination of nature and nurture that will bring out the best TT in the player.

    Of course, all of that only touches upon how a player can develop with their choice of rubbers, but there is another dimension to consider...and that's how well an opponent can deal with them. My basic theory is that only a minority of TT players have a "natural affinity" to LP, so LP players naturally have a double-whammy working in favour of the LP player; not only is it the better rubber for them...but because they're in a minority of players who have a natural affinity to LP, most other players have a lack of experience with playing against LP which effectively gives the LP player yet another advantage in match-play.
    I switched to LP's about 20 months ago and was surprised at how difficult it was to lean how to use the LP's. Prior to using LP's I used inverted on both sides and had a LP practice partner. After about a year of play against my practice partner I was surprised at how easy LP players were to beat once you understand the limits of their LP's. Now that I'm using LP's I'm beating players who don't understand LP's and am having trouble with players who understand LP's. When I beat a better player (in their mind) they say I beat them because of my rubber. They forget how many people they beat because of their rubber. If they're allowed to use high speed, high spin rubber, I should be allowed rubber that does the
    opposite.

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  8. Tony's Table Tennis is offline
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    #8
    I do think there is a wrong perception in the amateur ranks of table tennis regarding the use of LP
    Most people tends to think that LP is indeed a "getting old, so change to LP" kind of rubber.
    I think this is normally the case in countries will table tennis is really weak/unpopular
    IE - I don't find this problem in Asia

    I don't find it cheating, as pimple outs and pimple in are all part of the game. And then to make it even better, you have SP, MP and LP and not to mention it is not just about blocking or chopping, but also about attacking, and btw, some times defensive block/chop is also very part of the attacking game.
    And then there is Anti rubbers

    At the end of the day - the moaners are the weaker players.
    The winners are the ones that will change, will adapt, will improve, and not moan

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  9. JHB is offline
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    #9
    I've also heard a lot of moaning about LP from local league players - there seems to be an attitude that when you're no longer capable of playing "proper" table tennis you use LP in order to fiddle points/games off better players. It doesn't bother me, I don't play league at the moment so I couldn't give a rat's - illegal services upset me more. But no-one seems to notice the number of older players either using anti-spin, or using rubbers so old or dirty that they have the same coefficient of friction as anti-spin !

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    #10
    I once tried playing with LP,and was surprised at first.

    The general perception(me included) was that it is extremely easy to slap on a LP,and your game will become better immediately.I was shocked that it isn't so easy to use an OX LP(sponged LP is another story),you have to practice a bit before you can start gaining an advantage with this type of rubber.

    So,in essence,there is no shortcuts etc.it all comes down to practice,and how well you are able to learn to utilise what you have efficiently and with accuracy.

  11. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #11
    And a guy who is 1900 against smooth rubber attackers who primarily loop, but is 1400 against pips, is probably going to end up being 1600 at best. I have known a few people who just had no idea what to do against pips. They were pretty good against looping offensive players. But against long pips and anti-spin they were terrible. And that meant their game had big holes in it: weaknesses that they would need to work on to get better.

    Nothing wrong with that but why blame the pips and the people who use them if you are weak against that game.


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  12. Der_Echte is offline
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    #12
    I have seen a LOT of anti-pips sentiment both live in the amature TT world and also in the TT forums. Seems like majority of the "Complainers" and "Whiners" are the parents of young juniors who have no clue to play vs anything that isn't all out topspin attack OR even the same old fogie age group (that uses pips) but are inverted players. ALL of these players are seriously UNDER-trained and INEXPERIENCED (or at least not enough experience) vs pips players and will get GROUCHY in a heartbeat.

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    #13
    Personally, I LOVE playing vs pips players, especially OX LPs.

    Players say you dont have to read spin much (and that is true to an extent) but you still have to be able to read spin.

    I serve on purpose right at the LP pips, I can make a very heavy under spin serve that looks only light medium, and they duummp it into the net. I get an LP player to do that TWICE, then my BEST serve - the dreaded heavy NO-SPIN comes into play and she is a motor scooter.

    I don't think Carl got to see me in action at the Korean club vs the O40/O50 ladies crowd who almost all use OX LP on BH, but that crowd hates me with a passion, I will give them handicap points, bet for chicken and beer, then eat it / drink it up all for free.

    Gotta luv Korean amature TT clubs.

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  14. Der_Echte is offline
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    #14
    Quote Originally Posted by UpSideDownCarl
    And a guy who is 1900 against smooth rubber attackers who primarily loop, but is 1400 against pips, is probably going to end up being 1600 at best. I have known a few people who just had no idea what to do against pips. They were pretty good against looping offensive players. But against long pips and anti-spin they were terrible. And that meant their game had big holes in it: weaknesses that they would need to work on to get better.

    Nothing wrong with that but why blame the pips and the people who use them if you are weak against that game.


    Sent from my Pips-Phone using Anti-talk
    Marc Berg (an anti player on BH) eats alive those brainless 1900 looping types.

    Agold is 1600 and defeated Marc Berg in a tourney.

    That say anything?

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  15. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    I don't think Carl got to see me in action at the Korean club vs the O40/O50 ladies crowd who almost all use OX LP on BH, but that crowd hates me with a passion, I will give them handicap points, bet for chicken and beer, then eat it / drink it up all for free..
    But I did watch you force Robert Chen to switch from OX pips to smooth in the middle of a match against you because you were making him pay for his junk ball tactics. Hahaha.


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    #16
    He switched to junk ball tactics, because I either BH fast looped or deep slow heavy spun (and he blocked way out long) every ball I got him to give me from my serve (after I got him to duummp some into the net). His junk ball tactic was to drop it extreme short to wide FH near the net. Anything he dropped short to BH got flipped aggressively for winners. I usually have big problems finishing these extreme short wide FH balls with high percentage, but somehow made a LOT of over the table FH finishes.

    That stuff I had recently posted on Kim Jung Hoon advising such and such must have been fresh in my memory.
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  17. UpSideDownCarl is offline
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    #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Der_Echte
    He switched to junk ball tactics, because I either BH fast looped or deep slow heavy spun (and he blocked way out long) every ball I got him to give me from my serve (after I got him to duummp some into the net). His junk ball tactic was to drop it extreme short to wide FH near the net. Anything he dropped short to BH got flipped aggressively for winners. I usually have big problems finishing these extreme short wide FH balls with high percentage, but somehow made a LOT of over the table FH finishes.

    That stuff I had recently posted on Kim Jung Hoon advising such and such must have been fresh in my memory.
    Yep. Those wide FH touch shots you did on him off those short balls were pretty nice. That was where he started saying you were like 2100. hahaha.
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    #18
    I would need to have to take 5x20 min lessons a week for two years straight (and play a lot of practice matches and specific practice with higher level players) before I reach 2100 level I think.
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    #19
    No rubber plays it self but for some reason some people think LP is gods gift to bad players.
    Here in Sweden LP is common so most players know how to play against them and just like Der_Echte said there is tactics you can use to make short work of LP players.

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    Last edited by Old School; 06-15-2015 at 08:31 AM.

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    #20
    Thanks for this thread.

    I remember now that i still have that LP rubber on a blade, maybe it is time for me to start practice or play with LP rubber.

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