Yuya Oshima - Future of japanese table tennis?

He also got Samsonov on same day! Very impressive.

Well, in 2013 everybody thought that that Kenta Matsudaira was going to be "the next Japanese big thing"

I undoubtedly wish the young generation of Japanese athletes the best in their crusade against chinese, but will see only after time...

I think the main difference between Yuya Oshima and the other japanes players is his ability to play his forhand faster than his national teammates and (almost) as fast as the chinese, which makes him much more dangerous for the top players of the world.
In fact I think that's the main reason why japanese can't win against the chinese, they play too soft.

ZJK said:

I think the main difference between Yuya Oshima and the other japanes players is his ability to play his forhand faster than his national teammates and (almost) as fast as the chinese, which makes him much more dangerous for the top players of the world.
In fact I think that's the main reason why japanese can't win against the chinese, they play too soft.

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Couldn't agree more ... to beat chineese nowadays you need to have power

lycaon said:

I think with Kenta it was his serves that got him that recognition but after a while most people got used to it hence he wasn't much of a threat anymore

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Not just serves, his blocking is top-notch too, BH loop is not too shabby either. IMHO, anyone who, like Kenta, is able to survive for so long at that level while using mostly long serves deserves nothing but respect and admiration.

Its too difficult to say, but I dont think he can do some damage in tournaments that matter. For 1 yuya oshima, china has already 4-5 young players like fzd fang bo liang jingkun yan an zhou yu that are ready to go. China has already produced the next generation of players that will follow the trio of ML ZJK and XX.

China trains its players in a long term plan, the TT we see today is a result of LGL's (and of course all the other coaches) plan 10-15 years ago. They play closer to the table than anyone,service & receive is not so important than it was so creative players cannot inflict significant damage.

They also give more attention than anyone in perfect footwork, whether they hit a defensive or offensive stroke they are ready for the next ball, the chinese approach on TT is far better because of the stroke linkage.

European/japanese tt is like : 1)strike 2)a bit of a pause to regain balance, 3) get to ready position, 4) strike

chinese tt is : 1) strike and as soon as the ball is of the paddle they move to ready position in one continuous motion, and they try to strike the ball WITHOUT getting off balance, even if their stroke is not applying much pressure they are still staying on the point and ready to go for the next ball. So 1+2 steps for the chinese are 1 step because they dont divide the movement in TT . They have understood that a solid first "step" can lead you in a solid 2nd "step" and so on.


All in all, they create players with perfect basic technique. They dont do or teach pushes or topspins or flicks that have a large probability of getting them off balance. Small motion push/flick/or topspin, even if the 1st stroke is somehow weak or even neutral in terms of applying pressure, & getting back to position in ONE fluid motion.

Ending, once they lose or feel danger by a certain player, they study him very much and apply better tactics next time they play against him.

The good thing is that, the 2nd generation of players I mentioned is not so talented & with strong personalities like XX ML and ZJK, only FZD has shown signs of a fierce opponent who doesnt really care about the result and plays guns out blazing at every point. Fang bo was a good surprise also and Liang Jingkun certainly looks promising.

So to wrap it up, I dont think that oshima can beat the chinese trio (& FZD) in the near future in a world class tournament, maybe when they reach retirement age. For the 2nd generation of CNT, its too early to tell

@ttfrenzy, @lycaon:
Umm, we're entering a touchy and somewhat subjective area now so bear with me.

IMHO, it is unfair to lump all top (male) Japanese players together, and claim they prefer blocking and standing back to attacking. Mizutani gets a lot of heat for that, but don't forget that pretty much only the top Chinese players are able to consistently push him back from the table. When he's playing other players, he tends to stay much closer to the table, and dominate - otherwise how would he have the world ranking he has?

Also, I don't buy the the claim that Chinese tt produces players who predominantly posses smooth and nicely connected compact strokes, while European/Japanese tt system produces players who "strike-pause-get ready-strike again". For example, Timo Boll has pretty compact strokes, and the way he transitions between them is pretty smooth too - so long as he manages to stay close to the table. That claim also does not explain why Ma Long was running around and reaching for the ball for at least half of this match against Antoine Hachard:


IMHO, what is really happening is that the player who ends up controlling the point ends up appearing to move less, use more compact strokes, and transition between them more easily than the player on the other side of the table. And controlling the point is much easier in modern TT when you play close to the table. Top Chinese players are very good at staying close to the table, so naturally when Ma Long Zhang Jike or Xu Xin go on a rampage and dominate the game, they appear to do so very effortlessly and with very efficient stokes/footwork. On the rare occasions when they struggle and lose control of the point/match, they no longer seem as efficient.

vvk1 said:

@ttfrenzy, @lycaon:
Umm, we're entering a touchy and somewhat subjective area now so bear with me.

IMHO, it is unfair to lump all top (male) Japanese players together, and claim they prefer blocking and standing back to attacking. Mizutani gets a lot of heat for that, but don't forget that pretty much only the top Chinese players are able to consistently push him back from the table. When he's playing other players, he tends to stay much closer to the table, and dominate - otherwise how would he have the world ranking he has?

Also, I don't buy the the claim that Chinese tt produces players who predominantly posses smooth and nicely connected compact strokes, while European/Japanese tt system produces players who "strike-pause-get ready-strike again". For example, Timo Boll has pretty compact strokes, and the way he transitions between them is pretty smooth too - so long as he manages to stay close to the table. That claim also does not explain why Ma Long was running around and reaching for the ball for at least half of this match against Antoine Hachard:

IMHO, what is really happening is that the player who ends up controlling the point ends up appearing to move less, use more compact strokes, and transition between them more easily than the player on the other side of the table. And controlling the point is much easier in modern TT when you play close to the table. Top Chinese players are very good at staying close to the table, so naturally when Ma Long Zhang Jike or Xu Xin go on a rampage and dominate the game, they appear to do so very effortlessly and with very efficient stokes/footwork. On the rare occasions when they struggle and lose control of the point/match, they no longer seem as efficient.

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Nice video! At 4:29 one of the (in)famous chop blocks.. also here it seems a powerful weapon...

i'm with vvk1 here, it's not so much about training in a different way than it is about training more seriously from a very young age and training more often and harder than anyone else. the tactics and the resulting effortless appearance is just a result of that.

vvk1 said:

@ttfrenzy, @lycaon:
Umm, we're entering a touchy and somewhat subjective area now so bear with me.

IMHO, it is unfair to lump all top (male) Japanese players together, and claim they prefer blocking and standing back to attacking. Mizutani gets a lot of heat for that, but don't forget that pretty much only the top Chinese players are able to consistently push him back from the table. When he's playing other players, he tends to stay much closer to the table, and dominate - otherwise how would he have the world ranking he has?

Also, I don't buy the the claim that Chinese tt produces players who predominantly posses smooth and nicely connected compact strokes, while European/Japanese tt system produces players who "strike-pause-get ready-strike again". For example, Timo Boll has pretty compact strokes, and the way he transitions between them is pretty smooth too - so long as he manages to stay close to the table. That claim also does not explain why Ma Long was running around and reaching for the ball for at least half of this match against Antoine Hachard:

IMHO, what is really happening is that the player who ends up controlling the point ends up appearing to move less, use more compact strokes, and transition between them more easily than the player on the other side of the table. And controlling the point is much easier in modern TT when you play close to the table. Top Chinese players are very good at staying close to the table, so naturally when Ma Long Zhang Jike or Xu Xin go on a rampage and dominate the game, they appear to do so very effortlessly and with very efficient stokes/footwork. On the rare occasions when they struggle and lose control of the point/match, they no longer seem as efficient.

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Timo boll was/is the only european that has proper footwork in order to link it with the next stroke and of course apply pressure on his topspin. Ovtcharov was a serve oriented player, he used to get easy points from his serves, but it wasnt enough so in the past 3-4 years Dima has worked/trained his movement a lot. These two examples are the exception to the "rule".

There are numerous europeans that have been learning "wrong" (and by wrong I mean that they didnt have the chances/coaches or time to develop proper footwork at a young age,especially after the transition from 38mm to 40mm and no hidden serves rule). Taking the 40 mm change into consideration, china made a more solid "plan" about the future and trained not only harder but with more efficiency.

Crisan,Baum(world junior champion against mizutani, no significant evolution after that title!),Bojan Tokic, all the french generation since 2004 and after (mattenet,lebesson,gauzy,robinot,), all the russian talents exploded 7-8 years go like skachkov,shibaev. These players are considered "top" in Europe yet they have stopped evolving or be a significant threat for the last 3-4 years.

Timo boll or Schlager and Ovtcharov are just exceptions and lets not forget that they played quality table tennis with their father (at age 4-5!) and in good clubs with coaches so this doesnt necessarily mean that Europe is doing a good job with its talents.

What im trying to say here is a fact we all know, the chinese are building stronger foundation in basic movement which is the no1 priority of a coach in order to build/develop a world class player.

Europe coaches and players are living in a very different society, you have to work your a$$ off day in day out and even if you produce a world class star like boll ovtcharov waldner kreanga etc, it doesnt mean that its worth the money (so why work so hard after all?) cause TT is so small in Europe . Europe TT in terms of producing talents = france,germany,russia and maybe portugal in the future if they also build solid foundations.

So basically we have 4 countries with different mentality than the asians and only germany has solid foundations against 3 countries that are top in table tennis (china korea and japan).

A typical example of Europe mentality is Kreanga, after 2004 he didnt train/play as hard as before and he focused on his family more he plays TT for fun and off course the money to make a living.

I mean if I was kreanga I would have done the same thing, why train so hard when you actually know that china has already produced 5-6 2nd generation players that are 5 years AHEAD of you in terms of technique and you have reached your 30's?

The difference in money and publicity from being top100 or top 50 in the world compared to no1 is really small, especially if you compare the difference in money at China. A funny example :

ZJK wins world championships, Coca cola china : please dude make a commercial and sign a contract for me

Boll wins world cup. Coca cola europe : Who the f*** are is Timo Boll? Whats that table tennis again? You mean that thingy table played on the basement?Is that even considered a sport?

Hes doping.

I watched his matches when I was at the China Open, he's pretty impressive.

He definitely has more power in his game than Koki Niwa and Mizutani which is why they have had limited results against the Chinese players in the past.

I think Oshima and Yoshimura have good potential for the future of the Japanese team, but unlike the Chinese team Japanese and Korean young players seem to level off after a few years.

Players like Lee Sang Su and Kim Min Seok, Koki Niwa and Matsudaira etc, they made rapid accelerations into the top 30 players in the world but never made the next move towards the top 10. They need to figure out what can help make that breakthrough and part of it is making adaptations.

We know 100% now that because Oshima got so close to Ma Long that the Chinese will begin to research his matches. As soon as you pose a threat then you will be watched and analysed. So can Oshima continue to keep results and threaten the chinese even when they learn his game inside out? That's the real challenge.

lycaon said:

....
I only say this because yuya tends to attack much more compared to mizutani who likes to move back and block. Even though he does well playing like this, he tends to do much better attacking close to the table so really dont know why he loves moving back.

@vvk1 - I think you pointed out the biggest flaw in japanese table tennis, they just loveeeee blocking and standing back rather than attack which is why i see yuya standing out a tiny bit more

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and

lycaon said:

@vvk1 I dont think its just because of the chinese attacking style thats pushing mizutani back, he prefers playing back there and looping/counter looping from back there.
If you notice in many games against the top chinese players, he really does have the capability to push them and win points when he is attacking close to the table but as soon as he hits a couple when tends to step back and start lobbing which most of the time leads to him losing the point.

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IMHO, you need to make up your mind as to what style Mizutani actually prefers to play from away from the table.

Sorry, could not resist.

lycaon said:

I'm not sure if you understood what I meant but what i meant is he prefers playing back looping etc but he has a habit of just stepping back and blocking (as in he is clearly in control of the point with a few slow loops and then suddenly he stops attacking and steps back) if that makes any seense

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It would be very strange for a top player to purposefully or willingly cease control of the point while looping by stepping back and switching to lobbing mode - unless he or she is playing an exhibition match. IMHO, Mizutani specifically is pretty much always forced to do so.