Changing from Penhold to Shakehand

Pricey11,

I am pretty sure I am nowhere near your level.

As an oldschool penholder, I use one side/TPB. Lately I've played a little SH to try to learn RPB a little. TTD member ttmonster seems to think I should convert to SH. A few clubmates mentioned I have decent SH and should convert also. I love PH and for now am just trying to break out of my rut and add new elements to my game. I used to play when I was a kid, then didn't play for 30+ yrs. About 2 yrs ago, I started playing again. At some point I may have to convert to SH due to aging/slowing down.

I am interested in the replies you will get. Good luck to you!

~osph

What do you have to lose?

You already made it clear that you won't advance, that's what you wrote. I'd say just go for it. It sounds like you already know that and just want confirmation. Nobody can give you assurance, that you will be a better player after a year but you will never find out if you won't try.

Just one thing: If you try it out, give yourself a year or more before you evaluate and maybe switch back.

I am a penholder. I converted from SH to PH 4 years ago. I play two wing loop with RPB. Because of the flexibility of the wrist it took a while to get my RPB loop consistent. Blocking is easy.

From my SH experience, one thing you will lose is that, a proper RPB loop creates side spin. It is dangerous. It's very hard to create side spin with SH backhand.

You said you have anti on BH. I imagine it's very hard to loop with that. Why don't you try a control oriented rubber like Vega Europe and see if you like it?

I stay with penhold because it forces me to move and loop with my FH. I have one of the most powerful FH loop in my club.



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OldschoolPenholder said:

Pricey11,

I am pretty sure I am nowhere near your level.

As an oldschool penholder, I use one side/TPB. Lately I've played a little SH to try to learn RPB a little. TTD member ttmonster seems to think I should convert to SH. A few clubmates mentioned I have decent SH and should convert also. I love PH and for now am just trying to break out of my rut and add new elements to my game. I used to play when I was a kid, then didn't play for 30+ yrs. About 2 yrs ago, I started playing again. At some point I may have to convert to SH due to aging/slowing down.

I am interested in the replies you will get. Good luck to you!

~osph

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Your story sounds just like mine with making the late switch to shakehand. But there's really no need to give up one for the other; play both! I know someone near the top in our league , and he switches between shakehand and penhold depending on who his opponent is. The game is even more interesting when you are a switch hitter!

I could write all day about my switch from penhold to shakehand. I decided to do it because there is almost no coaching help or information out there that is specific to penholders. You could hire a coach who is a great penholder but there isn't such a person where I live. You could look at ancient videos on youtube but I don't speak Chinese, Korean, or Japanese. On top of that the majority of equipment out there is developed primarily for shakehanders.

I finally decided I was tired of living in an unsustainable wasteland. I'm going to Elysium. So I made the switch and I admit my game suffered quite a bit. My offense got worse but my defense and blocking improved. I'm starting from ground zero but its getting better and I'm working my way up. Overall, shakehand is versatile and efficient. I won't say one is better than the other. They're both effective in a game situation. I will say that shakehand is more convenient if you're trying to master the sport.

And I think what Jabugo said is very interesting. Its difficult but you could play both SH and PH. For fun I used my old YEO cpen and used it as a shakehand paddle. It was actually quite comfortable because the short handle doesn't get in your way, if you're the type who grips closer to the rubber. So tactically, you could use a cpen paddle to switch between your SH or PH game during a match. Should you do it? Probably not, but I'm just throwing it out there because I had fun doing it.

Not at the level as you, but I too am interested in switching back to shake hand. My problem is because of the time I've invested in RPB, in many aspects RPB feels more natural to me than the SHBH - my wrist does not rotate straight on the BH follow through and it svivels uncontrollably sometimes. I do find that SH overall movement is more fluid when switching between strokes, and service return in general is easier (I'm left handed, and I struggle with the right handed inside-out short pendulum serve, using the forehand rubber in PH to return it feels unnatural compared to the backhand rubber in SH).

I do like playing both, so I use a SH blade on my other side when I'm playing casual players, but lately I'm considering developing my left hand SH as well.

Btw why can't the emergence of the penholder topspin save the grip? The penholder grip has been declining for almost 30 years now but when Wang Hao and ma line had success with their new backhand it looked like the grip could make a comeback. And yet it continued to vanish in Asia.

Did Wang Hao and market lin come too late to save the grip (the new players from today started like age 5 so and modelled more after Wang liQin and Kong linghui)?

Or is the new style like Wang Hao still having disadvantages?

I have seen at least 5 PH players who switched. All of them changing to SH didn't improve their game. If you want to improve your game then don't do it as it is a waste of time, however it may be fun according to these players.

Dominikk85 said:

Btw why can't the emergence of the penholder topspin save the grip? The penholder grip has been declining for almost 30 years now but when Wang Hao and ma line had success with their new backhand it looked like the grip could make a comeback. And yet it continued to vanish in Asia.

Did Wang Hao and market lin come too late to save the grip (the new players from today started like age 5 so and modelled more after Wang liQin and Kong linghui)?

Or is the new style like Wang Hao still having disadvantages?

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Ma Lin and Wang Hao have different strength.

Ma Lin is very smart and unpredictable in:

• Short game
• Placement of ball
• Spin variation
• Third ball attack

Wang Hao is a solid all-round penholder.

Both Ma Lin and Wang Hao beat Wang Liqin. They beat numerous SH players during their time.

Xu Xin lacks the unpredictability of Ma Lin and the solid technique of Wang Hao. That explained why Xu Xin struggled to survived among the SH players.

If you really want to switch, do it. Looks like you're getting frustrated currently, maybe the fresh start will help you enjoy TT more, and maybe eventually you'll go back to PH with a new perspective into what you need to change.

If you can picture yourself staying passionate about TT without changing to SH, then stick to PH. It's not what's holding you back. Take competition with a pinch of salt, have fun and don't be afraid to try out different ways to play the game*. Give credit to weaker opponents for their strengths and take credit for strong players' "unforced" errors, you'll soon start to better acknowledge what you yourself are doing right and wrong. Fixing the problems takes time but it is comparatively easy.

* If you have a strong serve and 3rd ball, have you tried playing with a weaker serve and into the rally? Closer to the table? Further away from the table? With an early or delayed timing on shots? With more power? Faster pace? With variation of spin or placement? Can you control / slow down the pace? Close the game on serve receive or force clumsy initiatives off position? There's a lot to learn from what you don't like to do and why.

SFF_lib said:

Xu Xin lacks the unpredictability of Ma Lin and the solid technique of Wang Hao. That explained why Xu Xin struggled to survive among the SH players.

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I think it's not only that.
IMHO Xu Xin doesn't really play like a typical penhold player, neither traditional nor modern and doesn't stay close to the table but rather looks like a shakehand player far from the table but using the penhold grip.
Why does he do that? Maybe he loves showing off his quick feet. I don't know, but i think if he parks his butt at the table and stabilizes his backhand play he might find back to old strength.
It's been a while since he last time beat Ma Long and Fan Zhendong in an official match but i think he still can do it.
I wouldn't say penhold is generally a disadvantage to shakehand. Both have advantages and disadvantages over the other, but without a coach that's well experienced in coaching penhold players it's quite a difficult task to utilize the penhold techniques to their full potential.

Do you think a guy like wang hao or ma lin could compete today with ma long?

Xu xin definitely has a weird style, as you said much farther off the table than traditional penholders.

Could the new ball hurt penholders a little because the serves and returns are tamed a little?

Suga D said:

I think it's not only that.
IMHO Xu Xin doesn't really play like a typical penhold player, neither traditional nor modern and doesn't stay close to the table but rather looks like a shakehand player far from the table but using the penhold grip.
Why does he do that? Maybe he loves showing off his quick feet. I don't know, but i think if he parks his butt at the table and stabilizes his backhand play he might find back to old strength.
It's been a while since he last time beat Ma Long and Fan Zhendong in an official match but i think he still can do it.
I wouldn't say penhold is generally a disadvantage to shakehand. Both have advantages and disadvantages over the other, but without a coach that's well experienced in coaching penhold players it's quite a difficult task to utilize the penhold techniques to their full potential.

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Not simply that. Xu Xin lacks the solid BH techniques.

Wang Hao could rally against Wang Liqin and Ma Long away from the table. In fact, Wang Hao rallied with his RPB against Wang Liqin's FH away from the table.

Xu Xin simply doesn't have equally strong FH and BH.

Passionate about TT

Dominikk85 said:

Do you think a guy like wang hao or ma lin could compete today with ma long?

Xu xin definitely has a weird style, as you said much farther off the table than traditional penholders.

Could the new ball hurt penholders a little because the serves and returns are tamed a little?

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Jiaqi Zheng once said that penholders had an advantage when the ball was smaller.

Well I think the world becomes a little less interesting every time I hear about someone going from penhold to shakehand.

I can't blame you. I thought about the switch. But one thing that struck me that I didn't see coming was how sad I felt playing shakehand and missing penhold. To put it simply, it wasn't what I loved about the game.

That made the decision to go back to penhold and really work on my RPB easy. It's coming along and I'm never going back that's for sure.

Your background says you are a much better player than us ... this is what I have gathered from what I have seen in another guy who might be your level ...

There is a 2200 guy in our club who can play pretty much everything , his main game is short pips + long pips with penhold twiddling , but he can play 2000 + with shakehand and smooth on both sides.... and I don't think he has trained that much.

The issue you have mentioned about backhand is an issue that I am trying to overcome now and my level is probably around 16-1700 USATT ...

I would say get a formal coach to feed you multiball and get you to drill backhand ... since you have been using anti your reactions are different and if I were you I would try to learn SH backhand as a completely new skill ...

anyways, from what little I have surmised, you can compare the role of the wrist on the BH to the role of the forearm on the forehand side , and the forearm on the BH as the shoulder on the FH side ... since the BH stroke is considerably smaller unless of course you are Kreanga ... so I try to get my wrist moving on all strokes and as I get farther away from the table try to add forearm depending on my feeling of how much power I need to add and ideally the stroke should flow as it does on the forehand side without being too much conscious about it ... an useful drill would be to do 2 BH from close to teh table , 2 from mid distance and 2 from far off and then come back the same way and then do it again , if you have somebody to feed multiball or competent enough to block on single ball ...

Pricey 11 said:

Update

A few weeks in now my FH is completley fine im imparting the same amount of spin and speed on the ball.

I have had an equipment change I've bought a Viscaria (always wanted to try one) and replaced the EL-S with Xiom vega europe df for extra control.

Backhand is coming along slowly but surely I can feel it's improving but my weakness is deciding in mid rally wether to use more wrist or more forearm this muddles me up sometimes.



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Dominikk85 said:

Do you think a guy like wang hao or ma lin could compete today with ma long?

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One thing that should not be overlooked. Wang Hao beat Ma Long in the semifinals of the WTTC in 3 consecutive WTTC events: 2009, 2011 and 2013.

In 2009, ML may still have had some maturing to do. In 2011 and 2013 ML was a beast and many people thought he was already the best player in the world.

And by 2011 Wang Hao was already a little past his prime. I believe, to get ready for 2011 Wang Hao had to lose 40 lbs of excess weight he gained at the end of 2010.

So Wang Hao has already pulled upsets on Ma Long when Ma Long was in his prime and Wang Hao was already past his prime.


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