Service : Does the ball have to come down 16cm ?

ttmonster · Apr 1, 2018

One of our fellow players has quite a few dodgy serves. I was trying to explaining him that the ball has to be thrown up 16cm and come down 16 cm which is approx. 6 inches. Interestingly he said I know the rule says the ball has to go up 16 cm but it does not have to come down. And I cannot find anything in the ITTF rules that says so ... so apparently once the ball has been thrown up 16 cm it can be hit at any point during its downward trajectory. Did you guys know this ? Any opinions ? Any umpires around ?

TTFrenzy · Apr 1, 2018

Yes I knew it, you have to hit the ball at its down phase. So it does have to come down

Mimobrok · Apr 1, 2018

"2.6.2 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck."

- ITTF Handbook 2018

So I think yes? You can hit it at any time in its falling phase?

ttmonster · Apr 1, 2018

Yes , but I never literally read the rules from start to finish. The "near vertical" part is a very popular reference for a lot of people who like to toss the ball back

, one of my friends even took it literally and argued with the umpire that it has to be "near vertical" if its "truly vertical" then it should be called a fault ... LOL .. but it was a joke .. anyways .. .my intention of creating the thread was that we have always been told that the ball has to go up 6 inches and come down 6 inches before you can hit it .. I did not know that you can hit it anytime during its downward phase ... so I thought of sharing and checking if anybody has ever debated on this before or any officially sanctioned umpire can confirm that this is infact the law ..

Der_Echte · Apr 1, 2018

I think USATT umpire section has addressed this as a special example... I will look and get back to you. The rules says what it says.

If the server has the ball contacting the open palm, raises palm and ball still contacting each other at least 16 cm, then lowers hand and strikes ball while the ball is falling, it should be a legal serve provided he/she followed the other aspects of the serve. (Like having tossed the ball and having it leave the open palm by 16 cm...)

If the ball is struck so close to the top of the toss (or on the rise) that it is not clear ball was struck on the way down, that should be an illegal serve. (Stump the Ump is a little more liberal on this...)

SO MANY older gents have this serve that appears to be struck right out of the hand, regardless of whether they raised everything 16 cm...

There are some advantages for the server to strike the ball at its apex... mainly, the timing is real easy and the ability to hit it real soft or hard is much easier. Also easier to make a no spin, but it isn't the only way to do that.

Der_Echte · Apr 1, 2018

This is the most current "Rules Interpretations and Precedents"

https://www.teamusa.org/-/media/USA...hash=3E86B8F197024ECA612C8CD552AAA4BB7F27A5D0

March 2017... somehow the piece about when to strike the ball is not in the 5 items it covers about serves...

I will continue to look for when USATT addressed this, I remember seeing it somewhere.

ttmonster · Apr 1, 2018

Thanks Der_Echte and others ...

Der_Echte · Apr 1, 2018

OK...

From the "Stump the Chump" archive section of USATT website...

www.usatt.net/rules/stumpump/index.shtml

2014
Question asked by Larry Hodges:
Here’s a question that keeps coming up, and I’d like to see an online answer that we can refer to. When serving, does the ball have to go six inches up from the exact point where it leaves the hand, or does it actually require six inches of clearance between the hand and the ball? I thought I knew the answer to this, but when I asked six umpires/referees for their ruling at the Nationals, three said the first, three said the latter.

Answer: said:

This should not be a topic for discussion because the rule is very clear about it:
2.6.2 The server shall then project the ball near vertically upwards, without imparting spin, so that it rises at least 16cm (6") after leaving the palm of the free hand and then falls without touching anything before being struck.
The important part is:
"...so that it rises at least 16cm (6") after leaving the palm...."
The first part of the service rule, namely, "2.6.1 Service shall start with the ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand" is also important because if the serve does not start with "ball resting freely on the open palm of the server's stationary free hand", it is virtually impossible to judge the toss.
Rule 2.6.2 means that after the toss, the separation of ball and player's palm must be at least 6" before the palm and ball get any closer. We see sometime that after the 6" toss the player's hand follows the ball and gets closer than 6" from the ball as the ball raises, and sometimes also when the ball falls. But as long as the 6" separation of the palm and the ball was satisfied, and the palm and hand is not between the ball and the net (not hiding the ball from receiver), the serve is legal.
Thanks,
Paul

Click to expand...

Now here, from as early as 2003... friggin' Two Thousand THREE this was an issue...

Q: When serving, after tossing the ball vertically at least 16cm and then letting it fall, must the server let the ball fall a certain distance before striking the ball, or is it okay to strike the ball the instant the ball begins to fall from its high point?
- submitted by Ralph Crisostomo

Answer said:
A: It's okay to strike the ball the instant the ball begins to fall from its high point. You will be a much happier player and observer of Table Tennis when you know the rules. Contact USATT headquarters (1-719-578-4583), do yourself a favor, and buy a copy of the ITTF Rule Book, the newest edition. Your Friendly Umpire. Table Tennis rules are also posted at www.ittf.com
- answered by Paul Kovac - your friendly on-line USATT umpire

Der_Echte · Apr 1, 2018

MyTT had a thread about this too, maybe more than one...

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=53920&title=service-toss-rules-clarification

Ilia Minkin · Apr 1, 2018

Der_Echte said:
SO MANY older gents have this serve that appears to be struck right out of the hand, regardless of whether they raised everything 16 cm...

That is a real struggle...

Der_Echte · Apr 1, 2018

Yup, and old folks, they don't care about ITTF, USATT, the IRA, or the PTA. It is play on Sonny Boy or get gone.

You try to mess with a certified Geezer, you got some certified fight coming to you. The ones who do not care got nothing to lose and you have everything to lose. You won't win those kind of conflicts or arguments. Piss off an old dude and it is game over.

ttmonster · Apr 1, 2018

.... case closed, by the Chief Troublemaker , also knows as Der_Echte ...... danke !

Der_Echte · Apr 1, 2018

The case is never closed, the ITTF non-caring Geezers rule the Roost.

Ilia Minkin · Apr 1, 2018

Der_Echte said:
Yup, and old folks, they don't care about ITTF, USATT, the IRA, or the PTA. It is play on Sonny Boy or get gone.

You try to mess with a certified Geezer, you got some certified fight coming to you. The ones who do not care got nothing to lose and you have everything to lose. You won't win those kind of conflicts or arguments. Piss off an old dude and it is game over.

I basically gave up.

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 1, 2018

Wait, is Der one of those geezers he keeps talking about?

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

UpSideDownCarl · Apr 1, 2018

One interesting side note:

I have seen many people who think they have tossed the ball up more than 6 inches. But when you watch or show video, the ball only came an inch or two up from their hand because they have to raise the hand 10+ inches to get the ball to go up 6+ inches after it leaves the hand.

Good rule of thumb: toss the ball as high or higher than Der. Then you have to strike the ball as it falls unless you try to hit an over the head type tennis serve.

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

ttmonster · Apr 1, 2018

LOL .. How about a good old steam engine ...

UpSideDownCarl said:
Wait, is Der one of those geezers he keeps talking about?

Sent from The Subterranean Workshop by Telepathy

ttmonster · Apr 1, 2018

I agree with Carl ... der does not throw the ball up at all

Der_Echte · Apr 1, 2018

Geezer is both an attitude and social status.

With TTD Member given handles of Sacramento Fats, High Toss Servy Bastard, Rambo Looper, Trouble Maker, and other nicknames, what would you expect my serves to look like?

Der_Echte · Apr 1, 2018

I really need to train serves with a lower toss. Problem is, it feels so damn awkward with a low toss.

I guess it is an opportunity to practice when waiting for club members to show up... I could use the variety of a low toss shovel serve or reverse pendulum... gunna hafta put in the hours again...

Service : Does the ball have to come down 16cm ?

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