Bounce with the Ball / Split-Step

[JJ Ng]

Thanks a lot for the detailed feedback. I film my training sessions and then write a note in a spreadsheet for what to focus on next time and you pretty much hit on all of the things I've written down. Looking at it now, I see "focus on salute" very often, "keep elbow closer," and "focus on forward lean/play." So it's good that someone else is seeing the same things as I am.

On pure FH practice where I know where the ball is going (either stationary or two points), my stroke and body mechanics look significantly better, but I'm having trouble applying that technique in both random drills and match play. Do you have any idea what might be causing that and how to fix that?

Ok, I decided to get up my lazy rear end and set up my PowerPong robot (it was in storage for 2 years) and filmed a video. Please see below:

It is a new racket I just assembled recently. So initially I like to just hit/block the ball lightly ON the table to get use to the paddle, the sponge, the bounce and the feel of the new paddle.

By the way I did not realize how much I loosen the paddle and readjust my hold in between balls.

The frequency of the balls coming in was intentionally set to low so I can do the demostration better.

At around 28 second mark, I am trying to demonstrate only using forearm to hit the ball with the elbow tight close to the body.

At around 57 second mark, I start using the rotation of the hip/waist along with my forehand to hit the ball in synchrony.

At 1 minute and 20 second mark, I start incorporating my shoulder into the stroke. By then it is more or less the complete product. You can see where I am ready for the ball to come, and then when the time is right, I accelerate through the ball.

At 1 minute and 42 second mark, I am demonstrating that you can still look pretty good even though I would do all the motions above cleanly but my center of gravity is sitting on my rear end so I look "upright" in my upper body. I mean the strokes and everything looks fine but something is off. My knees are bent but my upper body is clearly stiff and upright.

At 1 minute and 56 second mark, that's where I start leaning forehand with my center of gravity in the front of my body. I am croaching more as a result (but if you look at all the top players they are always croaching when getting to return serve and they stay croaching especially with the shots hit close to the table). But that's how you make sure you are on your toes at all time and you will have better "bounce" and footwork compared to being
in an upright position.

At 2 minute and 16 second mark, I got back to a more upright position. Yes the body is relaxed and I am bouncing up and down, but it just looks funny and you will not be able to generate as much power and be as agile as you can be.

At 2 minute and 28 second mark, I go back to crouching more and lean forward on my toes.

 

[turbozed]

Ok, I decided to get up my lazy rear end and set up my PowerPong robot (it was in storage for 2 years) and filmed a video. Please see below:

It is a new racket I just assembled recently. So initially I like to just hit/block the ball lightly ON the table to get use to the paddle, the sponge, the bounce and the feel of the new paddle.

By the way I did not realize how much I loosen the paddle and readjust my hold in between balls.

The frequency of the balls coming in was intentionally set to low so I can do the demostration better.

At around 28 second mark, I am trying to demonstrate only using forearm to hit the ball with the elbow tight close to the body.

At around 57 second mark, I start using the rotation of the hip/waist along with my forehand to hit the ball in synchrony.

At 1 minute and 20 second mark, I start incorporating my shoulder into the stroke. By then it is more or less the complete product. You can see where I am ready for the ball to come, and then when the time is right, I accelerate through the ball.

At 1 minute and 42 second mark, I am demonstrating that you can still look pretty good even though I would do all the motions above cleanly but my center of gravity is sitting on my rear end so I look "upright" in my upper body. I mean the strokes and everything looks fine but something is off. My knees are bent but my upper body is clearly stiff and upright.

At 1 minute and 56 second mark, that's where I start leaning forehand with my center of gravity in the front of my body. I am croaching more as a result (but if you look at all the top players they are always croaching when getting to return serve and they stay croaching especially with the shots hit close to the table). But that's how you make sure you are on your toes at all time and you will have better "bounce" and footwork compared to being
in an upright position.

At 2 minute and 16 second mark, I got back to a more upright position. Yes the body is relaxed and I am bouncing up and down, but it just looks funny and you will not be able to generate as much power and be as agile as you can be.

At 2 minute and 28 second mark, I go back to crouching more and lean forward on my toes.

Thanks for taking the time to demonstrate and describe what you're talking about. I'm going for a different type of FH drive technique since I'm using hard Chinese rubber and am trying to hit through the ball more with a late brushing motion. I don't want to get too much into the details since this thread is about recovery reset and not about FH technique, but I wrote about it a bit in this thread: https://www.tabletennisdaily.com/fo...tacky-and-non-tacky-rubbers.28713/post-403158

I'm still reworking my FH to resemble that more physical Chinese style. But whatever FH technique is used, I agree that staying on your toes and being forward with your play will result in better technique. There's a section one of those videos where Coach Meng talks about how every technique should be done forwards in fact.

Built into the recovery reset is the centering of balance and getting back onto the toes after a stroke, so it's another way of approaching the same issue.

 

[blahness]

I played with some old partners yesterday. The strange thing is that I developed the habit of having the recovery step against other players, but somehow when I play these old partners whom I played with for a long time, the bad habits all come back 😂 probably a case of bad muscle memory...

 

[turbozed]

I played with some old partners yesterday. The strange thing is that I developed the habit of having the recovery step against other players, but somehow when I play these old partners whom I played with for a long time, the bad habits all come back 😂 probably a case of bad muscle memory...

I guess it goes to show you how much muscle memory is dependent on contextual cues.

To solve this problem, I propose you print out life size posters of your old friends behind a table and then start doing shadow training in front of those posters.

 

[blahness]

I went for training again today, and found out a way to really ingrain the movement even during warmup practice. Even when serving a normal topspin serve to start the counter rally, you have to bounce on your knees twice before you hit the ball, and when other people are serving to you, you also bounce twice (once for each ball bounce).

I found that once I did that, my muscle memory kicks in and I was bouncing with the ball indeed with all the recovery resets even during standard topspin - topspin practice.

Gotta say that it's gonna burn a whole lot more calories than the normal way.

It helped me deal with weird ass players who randomly put sidespin/underspin/topspin on the ball accompanied by during practice.

 

[blahness]

I'm also contemplating between various ways to kick-start movements during serve receive. One is moving upper body from side to side like Truls, the other is bouncing on the knees like the Lebrun brothers, the other is rapid shuffling of the feet in place like He Zhi Wen.

Fan Zhendong and Ma Long seem to be super precise and do just 1 small in place bounce apparently.

All 4 methods seem to work. I kinda like the bouncing twice on the knees method at the moment.

 

[latej]

I played with some old partners yesterday. The strange thing is that I developed the habit of having the recovery step against other players, but somehow when I play these old partners whom I played with for a long time, the bad habits all come back 😂 probably a case of bad muscle memory...

Maybe also a case of different timing... By the time the ball comes back, even if you did bounce, you may feel stalled/fixed... Try more bounces, burn even moore ;-)

Edit: I meant it more in a way of suggesting trying to experiment to find the proper way/timing even for those players. Obviously hoping like a rabbit won't help, that was not the intention. But you know sometimes, e.g. when you move more left to have a space you do 2 or more of those very little bounces at once... Cheers.

 

[blahness]

Maybe also a case of different timing... By the time the ball comes back, even if you did bounce, you may feel stalled/fixed... Try more bounces, burn even moore ;-)

Edit: I meant it more in a way of suggesting trying to experiment to find the proper way/timing even for those players. Obviously hoping like a rabbit won't help, that was not the intention. But you know sometimes, e.g. when you move more left to have a space you do 2 or more of those very little bounces at once... Cheers.

For me I wasn't bouncing at all when I played them 😂

 

[blahness]

Played matches with my old partners again and tried to consciously do the recovery reset after every single stroke. Weirdly after trying to force it for a few games unsuccessfully, suddenly something clicked and I'm starting to get the hang of it. Although I didn't win a lot due to all these changes, I think it's gonna be a net positive in the long run once this is ingrained into my muscle memory permanently.

It's annoying to lose to players who I used to beat comfortably just because I made this change....

 

[turbozed]

Played matches with my old partners again and tried to consciously do the recovery reset after every single stroke. Weirdly after trying to force it for a few games unsuccessfully, suddenly something clicked and I'm starting to get the hang of it. Although I didn't win a lot due to all these changes, I think it's gonna be a net positive in the long run once this is ingrained into my muscle memory permanently.

It's annoying to lose to players who I used to beat comfortably just because I made this change....

I'd hate to think that this thread is responsible for you losing matches.

So I choose to believe you lost because you went full Gozo instead.

 

[blahness]

I'd hate to think that this thread is responsible for you losing matches.

So I choose to believe you lost because you went full Gozo instead.

Hahahahah that has to be part of the reason too

 

[JJ Ng]

Hahahahah that has to be part of the reason too

I have always said a couple things:

1) Are you playing a match to win/to not to lose, or to get better? If you are playing a match to get better (and lose a few matches on the way), then you are on the right track.

2) If they are your club mates, you will have LOTS of matches in the future. Nobody remembers that you lost to him or her 2 years ago. It only matters who wins the last match in history. Lol! So you have plenty of time to get back your win in the future...if you only to play matches to improve (and not necessarily to win).

 

[blahness]

I have always said a couple things:

1) Are you playing a match to win/to not to lose, or to get better? If you are playing a match to get better (and lose a few matches on the way), then you are on the right track.

2) If they are your club mates, you will have LOTS of matches in the future. Nobody remembers that you lost to him or her 2 years ago. It only matters who wins the last match in history. Lol! So you have plenty of time to get back your win in the future...if you only to play matches to improve (and not necessarily to win).

Yep... I'm playing to improve, and usually the changes lead to a drop in performance in the short term. Too many changes - the FH rubber plus the recovery resets (I find that it results in your eye level changing slightly rather than being completely stable which needs some getting used to). But I do find that I'm getting to the ball much, much better with these techniques.

 

[maurice101]

I watched a few videos on this thread. I see the heal of the foot touching the ground a bit too much that could imply that the stance is not forward enough.

One thing that really helped me do more mini split steps between shots is to always have a forward stance so your heal is raised a little bit at just about all the time. Yes at times you do push off the whole foot like the right foot in the forehand loop. I try to have my heal raised 90% of the time and this forces a forward stance, It helps recovery as you need to finish shots on the balls of your feet. No more open ups where the weight goes back

Its been amazing what this simple change has done for my footwork. Yes its more tiring so I need to be fitter .Look at Mintos amazing footwork. Heal off ground.

Doing a training routine of 1 or more mini hops between shots really gets the legs moving.

 

[blahness]

I watched a few videos on this thread. I see the heal of the foot touching the ground a bit too much that could imply that the stance is not forward enough.

One thing that really helped me do more mini split steps between shots is to always have a forward stance so your heal is raised a little bit at just about all the time. Yes at times you do push off the whole foot like the right foot in the forehand loop. I try to have my heal raised 90% of the time and this forces a forward stance, It helps recovery as you need to finish shots on the balls of your feet. No more open ups where the weight goes back

Its been amazing what this simple change has done for my footwork. Yes its more tiring so I need to be fitter .Look at Mintos amazing footwork. Heal off ground.

Doing a training routine of 1 or more mini hops between shots really gets the legs moving.

I actually disagree with having the heel raised all the time - it's tiring af and is detrimental to full weight transfer. When you load up before a loop you need full weight on your right leg (less so with BH loop), but it's not possible with your heel raised. Furthermore having the heel raised prematurely means you lost the energy from pushing from the calves. The heels only come off the ground after the stroke and during the reset phase.

Finally, you can have forward lean with your heels on the ground, and you can also have backwards lean with your heels off the ground - the two are not really correlated imo.

 

[latej]

I actually disagree with having the heel raised all the time - it's tiring af and is detrimental to full weight transfer. When you load up before a loop you need full weight on your right leg (less so with BH loop), but it's not possible with your heel raised. Furthermore having the heel raised prematurely means you lost the energy from pushing from the calves. The heels only come off the ground after the stroke and during the reset phase.

Finally, you can have forward lean with your heels on the ground, and you can also have backwards lean with your heels off the ground - the two are not really correlated imo.

It's not that I disagree, but your post, as is (not necessarily as was meant), diminishes the value of the previous post. And so I can't give a like to your post too, you know. Let me explain.

I often find myself moving insufficiently and standing insufficiently - standing not wide enough and not forward enough. These then essentially determine the outcome, I mean how the stroke is performed. Often I realize, if only I stood a little bit further and more forward, the stroke could have been so much better.

So whatever makes me move better and stand better, wide and forward (I mean to have space to be forward) is of utmost value. Even if it is only a mental idea of standing on tip-toes (not on heels).

And I think that is the way Maurice meant it.

 

[blahness]

It's not that I disagree, but your post, as is (not necessarily as was meant), diminishes the value of the previous post. And so I can't give a like to your post too, you know. Let me explain.

I often find myself moving insufficiently and standing insufficiently - standing not wide enough and not forward enough. These then essentially determine the outcome, I mean how the stroke is performed. Often I realize, if only I stood a little bit further and more forward, the stroke could have been so much better.

So whatever makes me move better and stand better, wide and forward (I mean to have space to be forward) is of utmost value. Even if it is only a mental idea of standing on tip-toes (not on heels).

And I think that is the way Maurice meant it.

Thanks - I agree that sometimes mental ideas do work as you said. Stance width and forward lean is quite important as you mentioned. For me my mental note is to have my legs wider than half the width of the table, I'm setting up for the serve receive with my left leg slightly outside the left edge and my right leg at the centreline too, and then leaning forward at the hips. With recovery reset after serve, this is also the barometer I use - I try to get to this position after serve. Easier said than done though - especially after hours of play I think I sometimes compromise on this.

 

[maurice101]

Blahness, did you read my post? I said on the forehand pushoff you do have the heal on the ground. Moving in and out your heal will touch the ground too.

Another pro coach said you should be able to slide a piece of paper under your heal. So full weight on the balls of the feet. Just what I suggested. Lift your heal.

A little lift will bring your stance forward to be in balance. Most club players are flat footed and the weight is too far back. If you cant lift your heal and be balanced without moving your body your stance is bad.

You can not do fast mini split steps with any weight on the heal. Try this and see.

When you come across an idea in table tennis, I suggest to try it. I taught this concept to one person I coach yesterday and he totally transformed his footwork in one session. An Amazing transformation. If he lowers his stance a bit he will have a 20% improvement in match play. Lower stance means its easier to open up.

People struggle with their opening up percentages due to slow footwork.

Some things like spotting the ball and delaying the backswing are hard to teach due to past muscle memory. Changing the stance is much easier if you just focus on lifting the heal a little bit.

After a forehand the weight should be on the balls. Heals lifted a bit. Body in balance. Doing this makes you balanced and able to split step or move super fast to the new shot. Openups many of us are not balanced after the shot. Focusing on this makes you go forward and not up and back.

Look at Minto. How much time is her heal on the ground. Copy the pros.

The average shot in table tennis is 3.3 or something like that. Not much time to get tired using this method. Yes in multi ball you can get tired. Fitness soon builds.

If you got slow footwork, please try this and post your experience on this thread.

 

[blahness]

Blahness, did you read my post? I said on the forehand pushoff you do have the heal on the ground. Moving in and out your heal will touch the ground too.

Another pro coach said you should be able to slide a piece of paper under your heal. So full weight on the balls of the feet. Just what I suggested. Lift your heal.

A little lift will bring your stance forward. Most club players are flat footed and the weight is too far back. If you cant lift your heal and be balanced without moving your body your stance is bad.

You cant do fast mini split steps with any weight on the heal. Try this and see.

When you come across an idea in table tennis, I suggest to try it. I taught this concept to one person I coach yesterday and he totally transformed his footwork in one session. An Amazing transformation.

Some things like spotting the ball and delaying the backswing are hard to teach due to past muscle memory. Changing the stance is much easier if ou just focus on lifting the heal a little bit.

After a forehand the weight should be on the balls. Heals lifted a bit. Doing this makes you balanced and able to split step or move super fast to the new shot. Openups many of us are not balanced after the shot. Focusing on this makes you go forward and not up and back.

Look at Minto. How much time is her heal on the ground. Copy the pros.

The average shot in table tennis is 3.3 or something like that. Not much time to get tired using this method. Yes in multi ball you can get tired. Fitness soon builds.

If you got slow footwork, please try this and post your experience on this thread.

Ok maybe I didn't really get your point about the exceptions.

I don't have the best footwork for sure but the recovery resets have definitely helped me improve it vastly. I'm also always looking for ideas to improve, but imo heel raised all the time is not it. I just feel like you cannot lift the heel right before the weight transfer otherwise it impacts the quality of the weight transfer. Same with pushing. Even before chiquita or FH flicks I feel that I need the weight fully planted on the right foot, then the heel raise itself provides a lot of the energy that goes into the ball. And for me, shot quality is way more important than lightness of footwork.

In my opinion, the reason why forward lean is lost during opening loops is that people focus on the push off from the feet but forgot about the pressing down on the opposite foot at the end. If the pressing down using the upper body is done - this forces the upper body to end up in a forward lean position. So even looping against heavy underspin, you should end up with your body leaning slightly over your left foot after FH loops and over the right foot after BH loops. A high throw rubber that allows for a more forward stroke (for eg D05) also helps with this problem.

 

[maurice101]

Watch one of my favorite pros below.

What percentage of time is her heal raised?
What percentage of the time is her heal raised in fast backhand rallies? 100%?

What percentage of time is your heal raised in your own game?

I'm not suggesting to have it always raised 100% but it is a great teaching aid to get the weight on the balls of your feet.

Try it on the robot. Super fast backhand with an interval between shots of 0.6 seconds.

Copy the pros.

A footwork exercise, Heal off ground. He instructed his student to stand on tiptoes.

Do you move like this?