The Greatest Chinese Player of All-Time

khuonglt said:

Please tell me what context of this thread is!
Do you see the poll section in the head of this thread?
Thank you in advanced.

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I am not saying you cannot vote for who you want.

But the thread is discussing why you shouldnt vote for many players on the list,due to the lack of titles they have won.

Sali said:

Good point Carl. But I was just thinking who is really unbeatable. I do not know the stats but I think Ma Long since he lost to Koki Niwa (I think it was 4 years ago) hasn't lost to nonchinese player. Look at his games in tournaments, usualy he the score is 4:0 to Ma Long, then he meets ZJK in final, who barely get there loosing many games, sometimes even in early rounds wining 4:3, and Ma Long looses. I am not a big fan of both players but overall ma long is much more confident then ZJK FZD and XX. So in team championships he should be most relyable player. Definitely not ZJK who is hard to predict, and he lost to Dima.
And the other point is that nowadays almost every sport is improving, look at the old players from 50's

Even if one of them got 10 titles in a row I wouldn't say they are best ever.
Anyway young Waldner could make difference today. European players try to copy chinese style and play hard and fast. Variation of shots and speed and spin could make a difference. That is what Waldner was doing.

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If the sport has changed so much since the 1990s how come a guy like Jorgen Persson was able to play in the top 30 till 2011 and in the top 50 till he retired. He is 48, almost 49. He played actively in the pro rankings up until he was 46. FORTY-SIX. How about Primorac or Saive? How about He Zhi Wen? That guy is amazing and he is in his FIFTIES. And, I am sorry, fat, out of shape, not training, and with a bad back, and barely able to move, Waldner several times came and played Ma Long in tournaments where you can tell that if he was even in half good shape he would teach Ma Long a serious lesson in tactics and how to play the game.

So you can say what you want.

You also can believe what you want. But if ZJK is goofing around and not trying against guys who he does not even have to try to beat, what does that show. My point with the world cup was that he was not even taking the matches seriously and winning anyway. And then when he played Ma Long who up till the finals LOOKED invincible, but he lost to ZJK who was not playing close to top level and was not even taking the tournament too seriously.

Ma Long is not even the best Chinese player of today. So how could he be the best ever??????

Come on. Use some common sense. I may like Ma Long more than all the other Chinese players, because he leaves his heart on the table. But he has major flaws in his game. Listen to interviews with Liu Gougliang about the strengths and weaknesses of all the players on the team. He knows what he is talking about and can pinpoint what they need to work on. Then at least you will be better informed.

I wish Ma Long was the best Chinese player because I do love him and how he plays. But the simple statement is: HE IS NOT EVEN CLOSE.

If I had a time machine and managed to organize a tournament with all the best chinese players at their prime the ranking would be something like below. The games would be round robin (everyone plays everyone) without any knock outs

1.Zhang Jike 2. Wang Hao 3. Kong Linghui 4. Wang Liqin 5. Ma Lin 6. Liu Guoliang


11 points no hidden serves

TTFrenzy said:

If I had a time machine and managed to organize a tournament with all the best chinese players at their prime the ranking would be something like below. The games would be round robin (everyone plays everyone) without any knock outs

1.Zhang Jike 2. Wang Hao 3. Kong Linghui 4. Wang Liqin 5. Ma Lin 6. Liu Guoliang


11 points no hidden serves

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So are you saying Jiang Jialiang isnt a top player?

mahomedy13 said:

So are you saying Jiang Jialiang isnt a top player?

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jiang WAS a top player. WAS! The 80's style of short push block and short pips attack close to the table was too predictable after the 89 WTTTC loss. He wouldnt stand a chance against all round players like LGL or ma lin. The 90's era of chinese, implemented the BH loop in their game and a more sofisticated game borrowing techniques from the swedes. 80's chinese era has very big difference from 90's and 00's thats why I didnt put him on the list

This is really a pointless poll, but I was always a big favourite of Ma Lin.

The_Edge said:

This is really a pointless poll, but I was always a big favourite of Ma Lin.

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Waldner did say at some point that after he figured out Liu Gouliang's serves, which gave him a ton of trouble, Ma Lin was the most challenging opponent he ever faced.

He was a pretty amazing player.


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HI,

Thanks for using my videos as examples...means a lot!

Anyway, I personally feel that Ma Long is TECHNICALLY the best, as far as technique, win percentage and titles (i.e pro tours and the World Cup). You can also include his consistency in the team WTTC, not losing a set in 2014 WTTC. I would also say that he is the most consistent in terms of winning and beating the top chinese players in the majority of his matches, as well as the top Europeans. However, purely based on achievements you would have to say ZJK, down to his double WTTC and Olympic titles. However, his character and personality can let him down because he is often very aggressive and volatile. This is compared to Ma Long who shows fighting spirit but never makes a fool out of himself.

JoshGSY said:

HI,

Thanks for using my videos as examples...means a lot!

Anyway, I personally feel that Ma Long is TECHNICALLY the best, as far as technique, win percentage and titles (i.e pro tours and the World Cup). You can also include his consistency in the team WTTC, not losing a set in 2014 WTTC. I would also say that he is the most consistent in terms of winning and beating the top chinese players in the majority of his matches, as well as the top Europeans. However, purely based on achievements you would have to say ZJK, down to his double WTTC and Olympic titles. However, his character and personality can let him down because he is often very aggressive and volatile. This is compared to Ma Long who shows fighting spirit but never makes a fool out of himself.

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Not even close. Over the table he has gotten much better but he is still weaker than he would need to be to be the best. Best forehand, yes. Over the table: no. Backhand NO. In some way, those two are more important than the big forehand for todays game. Everyone at that level has a pretty good forehand.

4 World Cup appearances 1 title, 1 title! The level of competition in World Cup aside from the 2 Chinese players is usually such that Ma Long--if you go by those numbers and stats you are talking about--should have 4 titles. All he came away with was 1.

Last 3 World Championships he did not get to the finals, only once to the semi-finals. The short game did him in against Wang Hao 3 times in a row in WTTC.

These loses in the big tournaments are not a coincidence. They are not just some random onset of nerves that only happen when he is playing certain players. In 2011 he played Oh Seung Eun like he was unbeatable. The whole match with timeouts and all took 19 minutes. 11-2, 11-2, 11-5, 11-7 and it was obvious that he was no longer playing hard in the last two games. Then he played Wang Hao and it was not nerves. Wang Hao used tactics that he could not handle. HIS TECHNIQUE WAS NOT GOOD ENOUGH to handle the short game tactics that were thrown at him. And that, is why his technique is not as good as many others.

Hi,

I don't personally think you need to go into detail about the major titles and use them against his technique. Like I said, he hasn't performed well on the big stage i.e Singles WTTC etc because of his mental strength. It is an onset of nerves, from what I have noticed, because he has dominated Wang Hao in other events many times over the years (Take the Chinese super league as an example, or the Chinese National Games). He has beaten Wang Hao multiple times in large Pro Tour events too. He can't adapt his game (like against Wang Hao) in the WTTC Singles because he struggles with the mental side of the game. I still hold the view that his technique is the best in the world, purely because of his 90% plus win rate (including ALL competitions). This shows that its not in his normal technique where the issue lies, its in his mental strength and only in certain games (Like singles WTTC) he struggles. If his short game was so bad he would not have this win rate. His short game is as good as any of the other Chinese players in the Pro Tour events and other tournaments, however he has a mental stigma against Wang Hao in a major, and with major titles in general. Its nothing to do with his technique as a whole.

Your argument against his backhand is also flawed because of this. His backhand may not be perfect, and may not be as good as some of the other top players i.e ZJK, however his whole package in a normal match is the best there is. He uses his backhand as a set up shot for his forehand and this makes his technique pretty much unbeatable by anyone outside of Europe, because they cannot deal with the immense power and accuracy he has on the shot (Refer to Ma Long vs Dimitrij Ovtcharov at WTTC 2014). His Chinese counter parts even struggle with this (Xu Xin vs Ma Long China Open 2014 Final is a good example). Just because his backhand isn't the perfect shot doesn't mean his technique as a whole isn't the best. I would also argue though that he does have an incredible backhand when he is at his best. If you look at "Ma Long - The Dragon", this is evident in a lot of the clips.

The fact that Ma Long managed to go 40+ Matches unbeaten shows that there is not much wrong with his technique as a player. Its just, as previously stated, he has a lack of mental toughness at the biggest stage of them all against his fellow compatriot (Wang Hao). Liu Gouliang has even said himself that Ma Long struggles when he reaches the semi finals because of his personality.

In one interview with Liu Guoliang, he said Ma Long game and tactics are smartest among all CNT members, thats why once he realizes his opponent's flaw, he is able to rush them all the way. While ZJK's game is somehow opposite, as he does not have many choice and such a complete technique like Ma Long, ZJK mainly relies on his game to play against ALL kind of opponents. Because of this difference, ZJK is usually stuck when his opponent can cope with his game, and that explains for his poor winning rate against non-chinese players as well.

And PLEASE, DO NOT ALWAYS ARGUE THAT ZJK LOST THE FINAL OF WTTTC AGAINST DIMA BECAUSE HE DIDN'T GIVE THEIR BEST, WHILE MA LONG LOST TO WANG HAO WITH ALL 100% OF HIS BEST WITHOUT BEING NERVOUS.. Frankly asking, don't you feel its too much bias and unreasonable?

The truth is, ZJK can lose any game if his opponent can cope with his game, 'coz he does not have many tactics to vary his game, but his consistency does help him overcome all such situations.

While ML's tactics is attacking to his opponent's weakness, and once he recognizes that, the game is done. Only mental issue was holding ML back on the big stage, and I strongly believe so, no matter what people try to value his game down.

bricephan said:

In one interview with Liu Guoliang, he said Ma Long game and tactics are smartest among all CNT members, thats why once he realizes his opponent's flaw, he is able to rush them all the way. While ZJK's game is somehow opposite, as he does not have many choice and such a complete technique like Ma Long, ZJK mainly relies on his game to play against ALL kind of opponents. Because of this difference, ZJK is usually stuck when his opponent can cope with his game, and that explains for his poor winning rate against non-chinese players as well.

And PLEASE, DO NOT ALWAYS ARGUE THAT ZJK LOST THE FINAL OF WTTTC AGAINST DIMA BECAUSE HE DIDN'T GIVE THEIR BEST, WHILE MA LONG LOST TO WANG HAO WITH ALL 100% OF HIS BEST WITHOUT BEING NERVOUS.. Frankly asking, don't you feel its too much bias and unreasonable?

The truth is, ZJK can lose any game if his opponent can cope with his game, 'coz he does not have many tactics to vary his game, but his consistency does help him overcome all such situations.

While ML's tactics is attacking to his opponent's weakness, and once he recognizes that, the game is done. Only mental issue was holding ML back on the big stage, and I strongly believe so, no matter what people try to value his game down.

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When did he said that? Is that interview on a video with subs, can you provide a link please? I think they are both players who can adapt their tactics, not only ML so it sounds a little weird to me. The 2013 wttc trials where LGL is commenting WH vs ZJK he is saying that ZJK WH and ML are on par technically but ZJK is more fierce than the other two thats why he has a higher win/loss ration in crucial situations.

I think you misinterpreted here, what do you mean ML has a complete technique? You can see ZJK winning FH to FH BH to BH, winning with flicks and with pushes. Their technique is both perfect and complete but in different ways. ML uses more body rotation in his FH ZJK uses more wrist. ZJK bh flicks most of the time whereas ML will flick often with his FH. WH ML and ZJK are almost perfect in their technical aspect, its just that ZJK does not choke and plays freely in crucial situations.

JoshGSY said:

Hi,

I don't personally think you need to go into detail about the major titles and use them against his technique. Like I said, he hasn't performed well on the big stage i.e Singles WTTC etc because of his mental strength. It is an onset of nerves, from what I have noticed, because he has dominated Wang Hao in other events many times over the years (Take the Chinese super league as an example, or the Chinese National Games). He has beaten Wang Hao multiple times in large Pro Tour events too. He can't adapt his game (like against Wang Hao) in the WTTC Singles because he struggles with the mental side of the game. I still hold the view that his technique is the best in the world, purely because of his 90% plus win rate (including ALL competitions). This shows that its not in his normal technique where the issue lies, its in his mental strength and only in certain games (Like singles WTTC) he struggles. If his short game was so bad he would not have this win rate. His short game is as good as any of the other Chinese players in the Pro Tour events and other tournaments, however he has a mental stigma against Wang Hao in a major, and with major titles in general. Its nothing to do with his technique as a whole.

Your argument against his backhand is also flawed because of this. His backhand may not be perfect, and may not be as good as some of the other top players i.e ZJK, however his whole package in a normal match is the best there is. He uses his backhand as a set up shot for his forehand and this makes his technique pretty much unbeatable by anyone outside of Europe, because they cannot deal with the immense power and accuracy he has on the shot (Refer to Ma Long vs Dimitrij Ovtcharov at WTTC 2014). His Chinese counter parts even struggle with this (Xu Xin vs Ma Long China Open 2014 Final is a good example). Just because his backhand isn't the perfect shot doesn't mean his technique as a whole isn't the best. I would also argue though that he does have an incredible backhand when he is at his best. If you look at "Ma Long - The Dragon", this is evident in a lot of the clips.

The fact that Ma Long managed to go 40+ Matches unbeaten shows that there is not much wrong with his technique as a player. Its just, as previously stated, he has a lack of mental toughness at the biggest stage of them all against his fellow compatriot (Wang Hao). Liu Gouliang has even said himself that Ma Long struggles when he reaches the semi finals because of his personality.

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To be more accurate than upsidedowncarl, ML's short game compared to europe players is more than enough and maybe perfect. Compared to WH and ZJK his short game is worse enough to lose him points. His BH banana flick is also not as good as WH or ZJK but again this is not the reason that he loses important games. Ma long does not let himself go its as simple as that. ZJK himself admitted after his 2013 wttc win, that they are on par technically and that he looks forward on meeting him on final to prove that he can beat him

Now for the 40 + consecutive wins ML should understand that winning all the time is not everything. Winning when it matters the most is everything, its another thing that ZJK has implemented in his strategy and energy allocation.

And one more thing because I am sick and tired of people arguing which player has the best technique. There is no such thing as "best" technique, efficiency on every single different ball is what we are looking for and I think ZJK is a bit better than ML WH or XX on that aspect.

Check the world cup for example (the whole video not the highlights), ML made many unforced errors (especially on crucial points) trying to use a devastating FH topspin all the time, givin ZJK easy balls to counter attack or he missed. He could simply push the ball back! ZJK waldner WH LGL kong linghui samsonov are all great players because they were keeping it simple when it mattered the most

Well, I have no time at the moment to search for that interview, but it should be in a commentating during the game, subtitled in English by some youtube users. I will look for it when i have time.

Second, until now I am not so sure where the "short game" concept comes from? from the professional coaches or Chinese coaches? Did Liu Guoliang ever say that? or did he ever complain on ML short game compared to WH and ZJK? or only from some Mr. Know-It-All on TTD forum! If so, it returns to the matter of understanding and personal interpreting the game, especially from professional, top ranked like ML, ZJK... Everyone would have different viewpoint, different analysis, hence different learning approach.

I am sick and tired also when ppl keep arguing on short game tactics, why didn't ZJK use it when he faced ML in super league final match or many another important matches? Again, dun just rely on a very tight-winning recently in World Cup to conclude all the way down that ZJK is better than ML in short game and so on, its sick and bias.

bricephan said:

Well, I have no time at the moment to search for that interview, but it should be in a commentating during the game, subtitled in English by some youtube users. I will look for it when i have time.

Second, until now I am not so sure where the "short game" concept comes from? from the professional coaches or Chinese coaches? Did Liu Guoliang ever say that? or did he ever complain on ML short game compared to WH and ZJK? or only from some Mr. Know-It-All on TTD forum! If so, it returns to the matter of understanding and personal interpreting the game, especially from professional, top ranked like ML, ZJK... Everyone would have different viewpoint, different analysis, hence different learning approach.

I am sick and tired also when ppl keep arguing on short game tactics, why didn't ZJK use it when he faced ML in super league final match or many another important matches? Again, dun just rely on a very tight-winning recently in World Cup to conclude all the way down that ZJK is better than ML in short game and so on, its sick and bias.

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I didnt rely only on the recent world cup, but after watching full games of ma long against wang hao and zhang jike, especially in world competitions or chinese trials. The short game concept comes from the fact that, if u watch carefully ML makes many bad choices on placement of the short balls compared to ZJK or WH. From my perspective ML is too predictable, especially when he receives a serve to his short FH 9/10 times he pushes short to the center or to the short FH

If u observe WH for example you will see that he varies his short game more than ML thus making his game less predictable. Now about LGL comments he has never given us a complete image of his when it comes down to those 3 players. We only know what he said in 1-2 translated videos and thats all. Totally agree with you that everoyne has its own different method of approach and analysis

TTFrenzy said:

Check the world cup for example (the whole video not the highlights), ML made many unforced errors (especially on crucial points) trying to use a devastating FH topspin all the time, givin ZJK easy balls to counter attack or he missed. He could simply push the ball back! ZJK waldner WH LGL kong linghui samsonov are all great players because they were keeping it simple when it mattered the most

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+1 . this is the KEY
Table tennis made simple.. and there goes being unpredictable.

Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk

Hi,

Im not saying ML is the best, and the fact he has the best technique is my opinion which I have backed up with his win percentage. His technique works the best against MOST players, hence the win rate.

Somehow I did not see Ma Long having troubles with other players who have good short game. Good example is Mizutani, who developed his short game and use it a lot with speed players like Ovtcharov. If it was so easy, then Ma Long wouldn’t be no 1 for so many months and still on top.
Good point is about variation, Wang Hao and ZJK are players who can vary the game a lot. They change tactics and spin and counter to blocks, etc. Ma Long game is more simple, but when more variation is coming and Ma Long cannot expect what might happen next, then he has problems.
Last thing is his nerves, if you watch closely his last match against ZJK in World Cup, you would see while serving his hand was shaking – that does not help.

UpSideDownCarl said:

And, I am sorry, fat, out of shape, not training, and with a bad back, and barely able to move, Waldner several times came and played Ma Long in tournaments where you can tell that if he was even in half good shape he would teach Ma Long a serious lesson in tactics and how to play the game.

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Then what do you think if Waldner played Zhang Jike? I find this is pretty pointless to even ask you this question 'coz your imagination will go back again to the ZJK's glories and grandslam stuff, then intimately conclude that ZJK can manage the game better. However, Im sorry, who knows? He is probably even worse and just like amateur playing against Waldner.

UpSideDownCarl said:

But if ZJK is goofing around and not trying against guys who he does not even have to try to beat, what does that show. My point with the world cup was that he was not even taking the matches seriously and winning anyway. And then when he played Ma Long who up till the finals LOOKED invincible, but he lost to ZJK who was not playing close to top level and was not even taking the tournament too seriously

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You sound like Ma Long wasn't lost in very tightly-intense match, but rather very big gap match... I just take this as you are trying so hard to make your point more convinced, that ZJK is just far better and won the final easily even though he didn't take it seriously. But, sorry, that sounds very funny and bias.
Personally, that match only mean they are very equal at the moment, and Ma Long has significantly improved his mental strength which enables him to launch his powerful forehand counter-loop more confidently, but somehow still the weapon was not fully activated enough yet.

My points are very clear as follows:

1. Even though the discussion on TTD is incredibly helpful in many ways to help me or everyone improving our game, but there should be some limit for making sort of "intimate conclusions", and keep saying those as a trend or concept generally applied throughout every topic on forum. Thats pretty dangerous though.

2. Personally, I would rather learn from the professional coaches or professional athletes who used to be / are commentators for some matches, instead of taking a risk to totally accept those controversial "trends" or "concepts" which, unfortunately, have been made a lot on TTD. Thus some youtube users, such as JaggedTranslates or Peko Sukeiras, have made a huge contribution to help many of us, amateur players, understand many aspects of PROFESSIONAL INTERPRETATION FOR THE GAME. If you haven't seen any of these videos, go find them and combine knowledge, with critical thinking of yours, to any concept being said on TTD.

3. As far as I learned from most of the english-translated videos available, I NEVER HEARD any flaw of Ma Long in his SHORT GAME said by those expert analysts. Some of videos even pointed out that top players, of course including Ma Long, have fantastic short game and that help them, a core team members, play well against the secondary team members. On the other hand, Ma Long's nerve has been well told by those experts and that struggle pretty much held him back, but it has drastically improved since we saw the final World Cup recently between Ma Long and Zhang Jike.

4. Lets take a brief critical thinking which I am trying to say in this post:
ML: powerful and fast forehand counterloop, all-round player
ZJK: spinny + speed backhand banana flick, devastating backhand counter, close-table style

Why on earth would ML play more SHORT game to allow ZJK launch his backhand flick to manage his following attack, instead of trying variation and more pushing LONG to ZJK backhand or forehand to open the forehand counter? The same thing happened when ML played FZD on the early day (see video below).


The point is, SHORT GAME is MATTER if you only take it in one way that WH and ZJK trying to make ML trouble in launching his forehand counterloop. But it is NO LONGER MATTER if you think Ma Long, at his mental best, could fully accelerate his variation and long-push to anywhere (elbow, backhand corner, forehand corner) to open his powerful and fast forehand counterloop. And he actually did in the recent world cup final as well.

By the end of the day, it all goes down who is playing at better mood and better game, when everything is equal in techniques and experiences.