£350 Butterfly blades. Why so expensive?

[AndyCouchman]

[h=1]Why are BUTTERFLY'S JUN MIZUTANI SUPER ZLC OFF+ BLADE & ZHANG JIKE SUPER ZLC OFF+ BLADE £350 ($440) ? What makes them so expensive other than Butterfly's over-inflated prices?[/h]

 

[Kokain]

Probably because they found that people will still pay these prices regardless. Plus it's not like you can find somebody at your local club that has it and try it, so you are already in their bag. A good blade is sometimes worth the money, it's not like rubber that you will end up replacing in few months, if you take good care it it's for life. The question is, is it 350gbp good compared to something from Stiga, DHS...etc? Most likely not. Plus I would hate to hit the table with this blade too many time and eventually need replacement, which will work out 700gbp in the long run.
I'm surprised people still pay the Tenergy prices instead of finding alternatives for less. I should know, I'm using T64 and I'm not that impressed.

 

[vvk1]

Same reason why starbucks don't just sell one type of coffee in a fixed size cup for a fixed price.

TLDR: Because some idiots will pay £900 for an "old Viscaria".

Proof: http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...tle=f-s-viscaria-fl-old-tag-second-generation

 

[bolterixus]

Yeah because some one is that stupid to pay £900 for a used when a new one is £100 I would not buy a blade which costs £350. You also are paying for the name.

 

[Suga D]

...You also are paying for the name.

You're not 'also' paying for the name.
You're MAINLY paying for their name.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Here are a few things you should know about those blades.

1) the balance of Zylon to Carbon is different than in the older ZLC blades and since it is being billed as a "new formula" the blades are being sold at a high price because of the "research and development" that went in to making them.

2) there is more Zylon in them then the older ZLC blades and that actually makes them slower.

3) the pros they were made for don't seem to be using them.

4) I have a friend who is 2600+ player who was sponsored by Butterfly and he decided he may as well have them send him a ZJK Super ZLC when the first came out. To him it was a lark. And to him it was UNPLAYABLE!!!! He said it sucked and he would never consider using it under any circumstances.

I think for him the reason was, the additional Zylon made the blade less stable so it played badly from mid-distance and further. NOT ACCURATE. I did not notice that it was terrible. I thought it was an okay, but not so good blade. Certainly not worth the price of admission. Mediocre is what I would use to describe it. I personally think the InnerForce ZLC is the best of the ZLC blades. And I like the TB ZLF and the IF ZLF better than the all the ZLC blades, except the IF ZLC.

5) this is the last thing to know about ZYLON in particular. Zylon is a material they used to use in bullet proof vests. The reason they stopped using it is that, after about four years of use, the vests were NO LONGER BULLET PROOF. The material deteriorated and lost its properties to withstand impact force. The vests were no more bulletproof when the Zylon deteriorated than a plastic holloween costume would be.

So, it is possible that these are blades that have a real shelf life. So, with Zylon, Butterfly may have found the ultimate method of ensuring their products wear out and that consumers continually need to buy new products.

All this said, from looking at what pros do use, you can see that a lot of pros are using ALC blades and that not too many are using the Super ZLC blades that come with the ridiculous price tag.




Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[bolterixus]

Well agreed then

Viscaria is a good quite popular blade however I believe even for that the price could be smaller.

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Well agreed then

Viscaria is a good quite popular blade however I believe even for that the price could be smaller.

Yep. When blades like Viscaria and KeyShot came out ALC was the "new material" and those blades cost more than the expansive blades of that day. People paid so the price never came down to reality.

But, Double Day--which is the outsource company that originally made the Black Tag Butterfly blades--has ALC blades that are very good for $80.00-$90.00 USD.

So it is definitely not the materials or the quality of the blades.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[DoctorPaco]

Yep. When blades like Viscaria and KeyShot came out ALC was the "new material" and those blades cost more than the expansive blades of that day. People paid so the price never came down to reality.

But, Double Day--which is the outsource company that originally made the Black Tag Butterfly blades--has ALC blades that are very good for $80.00-$90.00 USD.

So it is definitely not the materials or the quality of the blades.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

Double Day? Are they kinda like OSP, in that they "recreate" old blades?

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

Double Day? Are they kinda like OSP, in that they "recreate" old blades?

Nope. Not at all. They make blades. They don't reproduce any of the blades they used to make for Butterfly. But when Butterfly used to have blades that were made with the black tag, those blades were made by Double Day. Here, have a read of this thread from MyTT:

http://mytabletennis.net/forum/foru...N=1&title=double-day-valiant-loop-king-review

Here is a key quote:

Posted by schen 06/10/2015 at 1:58pm:

The father and son carpentry team behind Double Day was the former OEM for very famous Japanese table tennis brands for over 20 years.

Although the specific companies they made blades for is confidential, let's just say that when they stopped being an exclusive OEM for a particular brand, that brand started putting silver tags on the bottoms of their handles instead of the black ones to signify the change in partnership and manufacturing.

TT collectors will probably understand what I mean by "black tag."

Here is a link to a page with their carbon blades:

http://www.ping-pong.tw/index.php?cPath=24_151

One of the most interesting blades they have is a blade that is ZLC on one side and ALC on the other side so that the BH side has more control. Definitely not a remake of anything else. That blade is called the Terminator. Here is a link:

http://www.ping-pong.tw/product_info.php?cPath=24_151&products_id=4109

I believe 42andbackpains has one in his collection. And note: for the ZLC/ALC combination the price is $102.00. When you take out the middle man, the prices are reasonable. Their ALC Loop King is $83.00.




Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[UpSideDownCarl]

By the way, OSP actually doesn't replicate old blades either. Their line of blades is their line of blades. I don't think the blade construction of the Virtuoso is actually like the blade construction of the old Stiga blades. Their blades are made to have a "big" wood feeling which is supposed to be similar to the old time Stiga feel. But the blade constructions are different.

If the were replicating old Stigs blades they would probably have a Hans Alser model, and lots of others like that.

If you special order and ask them to hand make a blade that is like an old blade, they will try.

But, I think the blades in their list like the Virtuoso Off-, the Virtuoso Plus, the V'King, the Martin, etc, OSP probably makes those better than they can replicate old models.


Sent from Deep Space by Abacus

 

[Smash or be smashed!]

I guess they are trying to use a very well-known trick of marketing: the lure of the top of the range. Price something much higher than the rest and immediately becomes the top, the most desired object. You should see the money cycling amateurs -such as me- pay for our gear.

 

[pgpg]

I guess they are trying to use a very well-known trick of marketing: the lure of the top of the range. Price something much higher than the rest and immediately becomes the top, the most desired object. You should see the money cycling amateurs -such as me- pay for our gear.

It also provides nice anchoring effect: when top of the line item is priced at 400$, the rest of lineup suddenly looks like a bargain at 200$. And they sell many more of these.

 

[slevin]

Why do I get the feeling that most of these reviews seem to be given by those who have barely had any experience with the blades?

First some POV on some earlier statements:

1: don't take the view of a high-level player who, for the past 10 years has spent 40 hours per week training with just one particular set-up. They, naturally won't like anything new. You shall get a biased answer.

2: BTY's spiel on why they are so expensive is that the fibers are so stiff that they needed to buy very expensive cutting machines. It seems that they want to recover the cost from the profits on these 2 blades rather than subsidizing from other product lines.

3: Even if we believe their story, bottom line is that the blades are expensive to us.

4: cost should not factor in the review as to some of us, the price differential is insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

5: regarding Mizutani's personal choice, we just don't know anything other than the handle. He is Japanese & a important BTY tester. Most likely, his blade is bespoke.

While for the past 6 months, MJ-SZLC has been both my main & back-up blade, I have spent 6 weeks with the ZJK-SZLC earlier as well.

You cannot compare this blade to 5-ply wood blades. Different market. To me, I get more spin using Virtuoso on soft strokes but less on hard strokes than a Viscaria. I get more spinny using Acoustic than V- on hard strokes but I find better feeling & perhaps dwell using ALC blade at that power level. Soft core in V- seems to kill spin when penetrated well.

Other than brief trials of V-, V+ & Acoustic, my last 4 blades used were (in order): Barwell Fleet, TB-ALC, MJ-ZLC & the MJ-SZLC. I agree with Dan that these (2 types of SZLC) blades are a step up from the ALC blades. To me, they have more control in the manner that I need it: the bigger sweet spot, increased stiffNess & better feedback more than make up for the extra bounciness. Only the BF has better control of these 4 blades.

I found the Maze to be flexier & more 'carbony' than the TB-ALC (perhaps slightly different ALC mix. Likewise, I find TB-ALC to be more carbony than the MJ-SZLC.

I can spin more with the MJ-SZLC with just a short stroke over a wider range of strokes.

I prefer MJ-SZLC in short game due to its better feedback & increased stiffness.

The ZJK-SZLC has better control but is lower throw & takes more effort to use from mid-distance. I think that Dan had the same observations (relative to the TB-ALC) in his review. The MJ-SZLC is softer & had more spin.

MJ-ZLC is more difficult for me to use than the TB-ALC & MJ-SZLC due to it having a smaller sweetspot & it being flexier.

The professional players' TB-ALC & Viscaria blades are more like the MJ-SZLC in that they are stiffer, more powerful & have a bigger sweetspot than ordinary TB-ALC (most pros use very heavy versions of these blades).

 

[vvk1]

I have had the kind of "bare experience" slevin mentions with both SZLC blades - having used each for about half an hour during practice. T05 in max thickness on both sides as I recall. Nothing to rave about as compared to a TB ALC or Viscaria with T05, IMHO. Switching from a TB ALC or a Viscaria to a SZLC blade won't make your league rating jump up ...

Another huge reason why I personally am sceptical about SZLC blades is that pretty much every single person who wrote a raving review of an SZLC blade on forums like this or mytt ended up posting that very blade in the FS section shortly thereafter with a comment "too fast/too light/too heavy for me".

 

[slevin]

Another huge reason why I personally am sceptical about SZLC blades is that pretty much every single person who wrote a raving review of an SZLC blade on forums like this or mytt ended up posting that very blade in the FS section shortly thereafter with a comment "too fast/too light/too heavy for me".

For most, this is a legit thing - they buy because they are curious and sell once they realize again that it is important to them that they can buy 3 Viscarias for the price of 1 SZLC blade.

I sold my ZJK-SZLC blade an year or so ago after I dinged it & realized that I could not sleep that night! Now, I'm pretty sure that that won't affect me anymore.

They are not ratings boosters - rather give you a choice. For example, you choose between {soft koto outers, slightly less bouncy, numb ALC feel, pretty consistent, stiff} to {grippy limba outers, slightly more bouncy, good feedback, very consistent, stiffer}. Not everyone cares or need one over the other.