A serve must-to-have

[igorponger]

Amazing nifty serve. Fully in compliance with the Rules of Table Tennis.

[size=+1]2.10 A POINT
2.10.1 a player shall score a point
2.10.1.3 if, after he or she has made a service or a return, the ball touches anything other than the net assembly before being struck by an opponent;[/size]

It is oftentimes called 'double bounce rule' with casual players.

 

[lodro]

Amazing nifty serve. Fully in compliance with the Rules of Table Tennis.

It is oftentimes called 'double bounce rule' with casual players.

so in this case the score is now 10 :10 because the ball did TOUCH THE NET ON THE WAY BACK TO THE SERVER ????????

 

[brokenball]

Another bogus video. Too high, too slow. I practice under spin serves but they must go low over the net and almost go off the end of the table and yet still have enough back spin to spin back to the net. This type of serve has a lot of energy because it must be fast enough to get to the end of the table and yet have enough spin to get back to the net.

I can get about 1/5 to 1/4 to work. Most go off the end of the table or roll back off the side before reaching the net These still have a lot of energy. I just didn't get the right ratio of speed to spin energy in the ball. If the ball has the right amount and ratio of spin and speed energy then the ball will not roll off the end of the table.

 

[lodro]

Another bogus video. Too high, too slow. I practice under spin serves but they must go low over the net and almost go off the end of the table and yet still have enough back spin to spin back to the net. This type of serve has a lot of energy because it must be fast enough to get to the end of the table and yet have enough spin to get back to the net.

I can get about 1/5 to 1/4 to work. Most go off the end of the table or roll back off the side before reaching the net These still have a lot of energy. I just didn't get the right ratio of speed to spin energy in the ball. If the ball has the right amount and ratio of spin and speed energy then the ball will not roll off the end of the table.

Yep, I am working on the same serve as you do. The "ghost serve " that comes back over the net to the server does not interest me.
I use a lot of wrist kick but one still has to be gentle when brushing the ball otherwise it will go off the end of the table.
I observed vladi Samsonov , he has a serve where he high throws up to about head-high , the blade held up. He the follows the ball on its way down with the blade and then give it the little magic kick . . I am using a half forward half sideways motion TOWARDS my body , as I am a lefty..

 

[dingyibvs]

so in this case the score is now 10 :10 because the ball did TOUCH THE NET ON THE WAY BACK TO THE SERVER ????????

It's actually in a grey area. It touched the net before being struck or touching anything else, so it's technically not a point. However, it did not touch the net as it passes over it, so it's technically not a let either.

2.09.01 The rally shall be a let
2.09.01.01 if in service the ball, in passing over or around the net assembly, touches it, provided the service is otherwise good or the ball is obstructed by the receiver or his partner;

 

[lodro]

It's actually in a grey area. It touched the net before being struck or touching anything else, so it's technically not a point. However, it did not touch the net as it passes over it, so it's technically not a let either.

2.09.01 The rally shall be a let
2.09.01.01 if in service the ball, in passing over or around the net assembly, touches it, provided the service is otherwise good or the ball is obstructed by the receiver or his partner;

Yes, agreed it is a grey area but of course if i would be a referee i would have to make a decision 😁
As I am not a ref, I can not make a decision.
If you can be bothered to have another look at the video , please look at the referee and his left arm.
Do you also think he is actually going to turn from 9 to 10 or am I just imagining this ??????😁

 

[brokenball]

Yep, I am working on the same serve as you do. The "ghost serve " that comes back over the net to the server does not interest me.
I use a lot of wrist kick but one still has to be gentle when brushing the ball otherwise it will go off the end of the table.
I observed vladi Samsonov , he has a serve where he high throws up to about head-high , the blade held up. He the follows the ball on its way down with the blade and then give it the little magic kick . . I am using a half forward half sideways motion TOWARDS my body , as I am a lefty..

Yes, I use a lot of wrist. Also where the ball lands on the paddle makes a big difference since if the ball lands farther away from the wrist, it will have more effect on the ball. I don't recommend throwing the ball up high at first because the ball will bounce too high. Samsonov has a special touch where he almost catches the ball falling down while spinning it forward. I am not at the point and probably will never be because I need that amount of touch.

I throw the ball up enough to be legal. I move the paddle almost horizontally and let the ball hit the paddle. The height of throw and the height of the paddle when the ball hits the paddle is critical. The paddle should be horizontal. The tangential frictional force will propel the ball forward with lots of back spin.

 

[OldUser]

Alexis Lebrun uses no spin BH serves and it works, flat no spin hook fast serves and it works so... who cares LOL

 

[lodro]

Yes, I use a lot of wrist. Also where the ball lands on the paddle makes a big difference since if the ball lands farther away from the wrist, it will have more effect on the ball. I don't recommend throwing the ball up high at first because the ball will bounce too high. Samsonov has a special touch where he almost catches the ball falling down while spinning it forward. I am not at the point and probably will never be because I need that amount of touch.

I throw the ball up enough to be legal. I move the paddle almost horizontally and let the ball hit the paddle. The height of throw and the height of the paddle when the ball hits the paddle is critical. The paddle should be horizontal. The tangential frictional force will propel the ball forward with lots of back spin.

NO ! I have nothing better to do in my life, So I work on the Samsonov soft touch 200 balls at the time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and it also does not matter to me
if I ever get there in this life 😁 I get about half of my serves to stay on the table now but if the serve will be any good in a match I will have to wait till the 12 of january when we start playing again.
Have a great new year
lodro

 

[lodro]

Alexis Lebrun uses no spin BH serves and it works, flat no spin hook fast serves and it works so... who cares LOL

Indeed there are a lot of top players who will go through a whole lot of complicated , sophisticated contortions but then end up
actually serving a no-spin ball. C'est pour trompee l'enemy mon amy

 

[brokenball]

NO ! I have nothing better to do in my life, So I work on the Samsonov soft touch 200 balls at the time,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and it also does not matter to me
if I ever get there in this life 😁 I get about half of my serves to stay on the table now but if the serve will be any good in a match I will have to wait till the 12 of january when we start playing again.
Have a great new year
lodro

Lodro, from what I gather you are a year older than me. There must be things more important than TT. I play TT for the health of it but it isn't my only priority. I go camping and not so serious hiking. I ride bikes too.

If you haven't figured it out by now and am the ultimate nerd/engineer. I think in terms of optimizing everything. No one likes my serves. It is all in the wrist or not. The opponent must be able to see the difference in where the ball hits the paddle and how much wrist motion I am using. I have many different serves. What I have learned is to not serve the same server twice in a row. This way the opponent can't adjust. I was taught this by my first coach. We concentrated ONLY on how to survive the first 4 balls. This was my requirements because I read that most rallies last only 3.7 strikes.

The young ones on this forum don't seem to realize that the whole world is collapsing around them.

Nasty serves are more important as we get older.

 

[lodro]

Lodro, from what I gather you are a year older than me. There must be things more important than TT. I play TT for the health of it but it isn't my only priority. I go camping and not so serious hiking. I ride bikes too.

If you haven't figured it out by now and am the ultimate nerd/engineer. I think in terms of optimizing everything. No one likes my serves. It is all in the wrist or not. The opponent must be able to see the difference in where the ball hits the paddle and how much wrist motion I am using. I have many different serves. What I have learned is to not serve the same server twice in a row. This way the opponent can't adjust. I was taught this by my first coach. We concentrated ONLY on how to survive the first 4 balls. This was my requirements because I read that most rallies last only 3.7 strikes.

The young ones on this forum don't seem to realize that the whole world is collapsing around them.

Nasty serves are more important as we get older.

😂 All so true.
One should also never forget the famous saying of "Dirty Harry" (Clint Eastwood) " Man's got to know its limitations ".

 

[James Z]

Yes, agreed it is a grey area but of course if i would be a referee i would have to make a decision 😁
As I am not a ref, I can not make a decision.
If you can be bothered to have another look at the video , please look at the referee and his left arm.
Do you also think he is actually going to turn from 9 to 10 or am I just imagining this ??????😁

As for who gets the point in the video, as I see it, there is no gray area. The serve ended once the ball crossed the net legally. The point continues & since the receiver did not make a proper return by striking(touching) the ball , the receiver should lose the point. Also even if the receiver had touched the ball it is a legal return for the ball to touch the net during a rally. The ball cannot touch the net only during the service but teh ball can touch the net during a rally (other than during the serve)

I don’t know what I am missing here

 

[James Z]

Some comments on super short serves

1. Iran tried to change the rule at past AGM 2022 in Amman, Jordan earlier in December 2022 to make net serves legal if the serve is otherwise legal. But it did not pass because Iran totally screwed it up by combining this proposal with another proposal to do away with timeouts. If they submit the proposal to end net lets separately at the Durban 2023 AGM ,it may pass.

1. Double bounce serves are just as bad as third ball attacks from the perspective of presentation to spectators.
   In fact many of these serves end in third ball attacks to quickly end the point.
   
   There had been proposals to totally ban double bounce serves so that there would be more longer rallies but I am sure the booster supremacists & two winged extremists who control the ITTF & want third ball attacks may not want any of that
   
   However serves & serve returns in tabletennis are a major part of the sport & sort of beauty of the sport despite excessive third ball attack points
   
   So the best compromise to retain both skill & the beauty of multi bounce serves but also prolong more rallies, my personal my proposal would be as follows
   
   Even number games (2,4. 6) will allow multi-bounce serves.
   Odd number games (1,3,5.7) will require all serves to cross the end line by about a feet & also within the imaginary extension of side lines.

I am not suggesting that serves should be alternated every point because it is too hard to remember for players & to administer for umpires.

IgorPonger actually posted a video few months ago of a player repeatedly using double bounce serves against a junior opponent who could not reach the ball because she was too short & she won the match that way & it was horribly against the ethical conduct in any sport. I even wonder if a line should be drawn parallel to the net about a feet from the net on either side & all short serves should also cross this line, at least in singles if not doubles

Additionally as I stated in an earlier post today, I always wonder if using a slightly modified tennis type scoring will attract more people especially tennis players to tabletennis. This could still be on top of above proposal but with different serves for sets (not games) (2 & 4) & for (1,3.5) . Sure it will be confusing at first but players will adopt.

This is also why I think the rules & regulations of tabletennis must be applied strictly only to pro events such as WTT & some (but not all of) 5 or 4 star ITTF events but 3 star or below lower level events of national affiliates like USATT etc should have a little more freedom to be sort of an experimental testing ground for WTT for future rule / regulation changes for WTT

 

[Takkyu_wa_inochi]

id like to see that video again from IgorPonger

 

[OldUser]

UP.....

 

[James Z]

id like to see that video again from IgorPonger

Sorry, cannot find it.
Not sure which forum he posted it.
Maybe Igor is reading this & will repost.
You can send him a PM

 

[lodro]

As for who gets the point in the video, as I see it, there is no gray area. The serve ended once the ball crossed the net legally. The point continues & since the receiver did not make a proper return by striking(touching) the ball , the receiver should lose the point. Also even if the receiver had touched the ball it is a legal return for the ball to touch the net during a rally. The ball cannot touch the net only during the service but teh ball can touch the net during a rally (other than during the serve)

I don’t know what I am missing here

You are missing the joke.
While your interpretation of the rule is surely "correct", and the OP also states that it is correct, the so called grey area comes from the wording in:

2.10.1.3 if, after he or she has made a service or a return, the ball touches anything other than the net assembly before being struck by an opponent;

:now the real joke start exactly here, because the ball has touched the net assembly BEFORE being struck by an opponent.


Yes it is just a bit of fun, not to be taken seriously. But you can if you want to 😁
The server thinks he got the point
The receiver thinks he lost the point.
What I am wondering is , why the referee, at the very end of the video, is stretching out his left arm to change the point-card, surely he should use his right arm, making it 11 : 9

 

[lodro]

"""""""""""""

1. So the best compromise to retain both skill & the beauty of multi bounce serves but also prolong more rallies, my personal my proposal would be as follows
   
   Even number games (2,4. 6) will allow multi-bounce serves.
   Odd number games (1,3,5.7) will require all serves to cross the end line by about a feet & also within the imaginary extension of side lines.

I am not suggesting that serves should be alternated every point because it is too hard to remember for players & to administer for umpires. """"""""""

Now you are just having a laugh, right ?????? 🤣